tabling
of
documents
{sent}
house
of
commons
{sent}
thursday
,
april
17
,
1986
{sent}
the
house
met
at
11
a.m.
{sent}
statements
by
ministers
{sent}
routine
proceedings
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
government
response
{sent}
canadian
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
{sent}
fourth
anniversary
of
proclamation
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
our
government
has
demonstrated
its
support
for
these
important
principles
by
taking
steps
to
enforce
the
provisions
of
the
charter
more
vigourously
.
{sent}
we
took
the
initiative
in
assessing
and
amending
current
legislation
and
policies
to
ensure
that
they
reflect
a
broad
interpretation
of
the
charter
.
{sent}
in
doing
so
,
we
have
tried
to
rise
above
the
conventional
political
options
and
take
a
new
and
broader
view
.
{sent}
for
example
,
last
december
new
initiatives
and
increased
funding
was
announced
to
improve
the
status
of
disabled
persons
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
proud
of
the
role
played
by
canadians
in
carrying
out
this
difficult
task
,
which
consists
in
defining
the
mechanisms
for
bringing
about
equality
and
social
justice
in
canada
.
{sent}
we
are
committed
to
the
continuation
of
this
process
of
consultation
because
we
believe
canadians
have
the
right
to
participate
in
the
development
of
policy
that
fundamentally
affects
their
lives
.
{sent}
there
is
no
doubt
that
the
charter
is
affecting
all
of
our
lives
.
{sent}
it
requires
courts
and
governments
to
be
ever
aware
of
the
need
to
balance
individual
and
societal
rights
in
a
fashion
which
facilitates
society
's
interest
with
the
least
amount
of
restriction
upon
individual
rights
.
{sent}
the
charter
is
giving
individuals
a
new
opportunity
to
seek
redress
when
their
rights
are
infringed
upon
.
{sent}
it
also
imposes
on
all
an
obligation
to
be
tolerant
of
the
rights
of
others
.
{sent}
i
hope
that
all
hon.
members
will
continue
to
work
towards
achieving
this
collective
goal
.
{sent}
it
is
also
the
first
anniversary
of
the
charter
being
brought
into
force
.
{sent}
we
in
canada
can
be
proud
,
in
a
world
as
we
see
it
today
,
of
the
fact
that
we
are
a
torch
held
aloft
for
freedom
.
{sent}
canada
is
a
nation
perceived
throughout
the
world
as
a
democracy
,
one
that
is
tolerant
,
one
that
has
signed
the
international
human
rights
covenants
and
given
leadership
in
all
aspects
of
human
rights
.
{sent}
we
have
also
shown
we
are
prepared
to
carry
out
those
rights
within
our
own
homeland
.
{sent}
we
do
not
,
as
some
countries
do
,
merely
talk
.
{sent}
our
laws
bring
substance
to
the
kind
of
society
we
wish
to
have
,
a
society
which
respects
people
of
all
races
,
colours
,
religions
,
sex
,
and
background
.
{sent}
that
is
to
our
glory
.
{sent}
we
can
be
very
proud
and
i
want
to
join
with
all
members
of
this
house
in
proclaiming
this
happy
occasion
.
{sent}
we
in
the
liberal
party
have
some
very
special
reasons
to
be
proud
of
the
role
we
have
played
over
the
years
in
this
respect
.
{sent}
certainly
everyone
in
my
caucus
is
concerned
about
human
rights
.
{sent}
we
can
look
back
at
some
of
the
major
events
,
not
to
mention
the
many
minor
events
,
which
have
occurred
in
the
past
in
an
effort
to
uphold
human
rights
and
equality
.
{sent}
for
example
,
the
bringing
into
effect
of
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
,
the
court
challenges
program
for
official
languages
,
and
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
itself
.
{sent}
then
,
of
course
,
there
are
the
guidelines
which
have
been
in
existence
in
treasury
board
and
so
on
to
try
and
make
sure
that
people
have
equality
in
the
public
service
.
{sent}
however
,
we
have
a
ways
to
go
.
{sent}
those
in
my
caucus
who
are
policy
critics
in
various
areas
should
really
be
given
some
opportunity
to
speak
,
but
they
cannot
since
only
one
person
can
respond
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
not
enough
to
merely
have
guidelines
and
to
speak
in
generalities
.
{sent}
we
must
also
have
teeth
in
our
law
.
{sent}
we
must
have
legislation
and
charters
which
will
allow
people
to
come
before
the
courts
with
their
concerns
and
grievances
with
some
effect
and
justice
.
{sent}
on
this
occasion
i
call
upon
the
government
to
try
to
change
its
bill
so
that
it
will
recognize
the
urgent
need
to
bring
justice
and
freedom
to
our
people
.
{sent}
certainly
all
of
us
in
this
house
are
very
proud
of
the
proclamation
of
the
charter
of
rights
.
{sent}
i
know
the
history
of
my
colleagues
in
the
ndp
,
and
our
predecessors
in
the
ccf
,
who
fought
long
,
hard
and
valiantly
to
ensure
entrenched
protection
of
human
rights
in
canada
's
constitution
.
{sent}
one
year
ago
today
we
proclaimed
the
final
section
of
the
charter
of
rights
,
section
15
.
{sent}
one
year
later
we
must
examine
with
care
the
record
of
the
government
.
{sent}
we
celebrate
today
the
accomplishments
of
those
canadians
who
fought
so
hard
for
a
strong
,
entrenched
charter
of
rights
.
{sent}
the
ad
hoc
women
's
committee
who
,
in
a
tremendous
display
of
energy
and
dedication
from
right
across
this
land
,
came
together
and
insisted
on
the
inclusion
of
section
28
of
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
.
{sent}
i
would
note
in
that
regard
the
concern
expressed
by
groups
representing
the
handicapped
,
in
particular
the
coalition
of
provincial
organizations
of
the
handicapped
,
with
respect
to
the
government
's
response
on
human
rights
and
fundamental
freedoms
.
{sent}
they
suggest
that
if
they
were
to
give
a
grade
to
the
government
's
response
,
it
would
be
a
d
minus
.
{sent}
in
that
regard
i
note
with
regret
that
the
government
has
still
not
accepted
the
recommendations
of
the
canadian
council
on
social
development
which
over
a
month
ago
submitted
recommendations
for
a
panel
for
the
court
challenges
program
.
{sent}
i
take
this
opportunity
to
call
upon
the
secretary
of
state
to
approve
that
panel
and
let
the
ccsd
get
on
with
the
business
of
funding
these
important
court
challenges
.
{sent}
--
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
on
reasonable
accommodation
to
reverse
the
effect
of
the
binder
decision
in
the
supreme
court
of
canada
.
{sent}
equality
must
be
a
reality
.
{sent}
interparliamentary
delegations
{sent}
presentation
of
report
of
delegation
to
yugoslavia
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
canada
--
u.s.
agreement
on
test
range
,
nanoose
bay
{sent}
they
want
to
bring
to
an
end
all
weapons
testing
in
the
test
range
and
convert
the
test
range
to
peaceful
purposes
.
{sent}
smoking
control
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
mr.
patrick
boyer
(
etobicoke
--
lakeshore
)
moved
for
leave
to
introduce
bill
c-287
,
an
act
to
control
smoking
in
public
buildings
and
facilities
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
shall
the
hon.
member
have
leave
to
introduce
the
bill
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
in
summary
,
i
believe
this
bill
blends
a
reasonable
accommodation
of
the
needs
of
all
parties
concerned
in
a
realistic
and
practical
way
to
deal
with
this
health
hazard
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
knows
that
summaries
of
private
member
's
bills
are
intended
to
be
as
brief
as
possible
.
{sent}
motion
agreed
to
,
bill
read
the
first
time
and
ordered
to
be
printed
.
{sent}
order
paper
questions
{sent}
questions
on
the
order
paper
{sent}
(
questions
answered
orally
are
indicated
by
an
asterisk
.
)
{sent}
mr.
doug
lewis
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
following
question
will
be
answered
today
:
no.
536
.
{sent}
persons
deported
from
canada
{sent}
question
no.
536
--
mr.
redway
:
{sent}
hon.
walter
mclean
(
minister
of
state
(
immigration
)
)
:
(
a
)
3,747
,
(
b
)
3,112
,
(
c
)
2,265
,
(
d
)
306
(
year
to
date
)
.
{sent}
(
i
)
(
a
)
$
1,890,749
,
(
b
)
$
1,690,450
,
(
c
)
$
1,220,661
,
(
d
)
$
522,158
.
{sent}
(
ii
)
(
a
)
$
3,333,581
,
(
b
)
$
3,651,766
,
(
c
)
$
3,434,708
,
(
d
)
$
1,795,729
.
{sent}
enforcement
data
system
{sent}
employment
&
immigration
information
system
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
i
ask
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
the
remaining
questions
be
allowed
to
stand
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
question
enumerated
by
the
hon.
parliamentary
secretary
has
been
answered
.
{sent}
shall
the
remaining
questions
stand
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
those
are
clear
instructions
.
{sent}
but
what
if
the
employer
does
not
do
those
things
?
{sent}
there
is
no
follow
up
action
whatsoever
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
from
all
of
the
evidence
after
one
year
of
implementation
of
the
equality
section
of
the
charter
,
we
have
not
made
much
progress
.
{sent}
judge
abella
gave
a
speech
at
the
canadian
club
the
other
day
and
pointed
out
that
we
have
not
made
much
progress
with
respect
to
equality
for
women
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
the
government
brings
forward
bill
c-62
and
places
certain
responsibilities
upon
employers
with
respect
to
equity
in
the
workplace
,
yet
the
teeth
are
missing
from
the
bill
.
{sent}
i
recall
saying
about
a
different
bill
that
the
bill
was
nothing
but
a
"
roaring
rabbit
"
.
{sent}
it
is
the
same
with
this
bill
.
{sent}
the
message
which
clearly
goes
to
employers
is
:
"
we
have
only
put
this
in
here
for
show
.
{sent}
it
is
only
window
dressing
"
.
{sent}
there
was
a
demostration
of
disabled
persons
on
the
hill
a
few
days
ago
.
{sent}
they
clearly
pointed
out
that
they
are
not
hoodwinked
by
the
bill
.
{sent}
i
believe
one
of
their
comments
was
:
"
we
are
not
stupid
.
{sent}
we
know
this
bill
is
not
going
to
help
resolve
the
problem
"
.
{sent}
we
cannot
masquerade
this
shell
of
a
bill
as
a
bill
which
is
taking
a
step
towards
providing
some
equality
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
that
is
why
my
colleague
put
forward
his
amendment
.
{sent}
the
only
penalty
in
the
bill
is
in
clause
6
.
{sent}
clause
6
states
:
{sent}
on
or
before
june
1
,
1988
and
on
or
before
june
1
of
each
year
thereafter
,
every
employer
shall
file
with
the
minister
a
report
in
respect
of
the
immediately
preceding
calendar
year
--
{sent}
that
is
with
respect
to
how
many
employees
and
so
on
.
{sent}
the
penalty
for
not
filing
that
report
is
$
500,000
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
that
is
not
where
we
have
to
put
the
penalty
.
{sent}
the
penalty
ought
to
be
where
employers
are
required
to
do
certain
things
to
actually
bring
about
equality
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
very
conveniently
,
the
government
excludes
the
federal
civil
service
from
the
provisions
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
so
the
government
itself
is
not
even
prepared
to
accept
the
bill
as
applying
to
itself
as
an
employer
.
{sent}
we
would
urge
the
government
to
accept
the
subamendment
of
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
centre
.
{sent}
i
believe
it
would
show
the
good
faith
of
the
government
.
{sent}
it
would
show
that
it
really
wants
to
do
something
about
equality
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
it
would
certainly
send
a
message
to
the
employers
that
the
government
is
serious
about
creating
equity
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
i
would
not
mind
if
the
government
wanted
to
take
the
$
500,000
penalty
out
of
clause
6
.
{sent}
i
would
not
personally
be
opposed
to
that
.
{sent}
what
is
the
big
fuss
about
not
filing
a
report
?
{sent}
members
of
the
government
have
said
that
we
should
not
burden
business
with
a
lot
of
form-filling
.
{sent}
here
they
are
putting
in
clause
6
which
requires
a
lot
of
form-filling
.
{sent}
that
information
can
be
found
out
.
{sent}
after
all
,
the
employer
has
to
file
an
income
tax
return
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
this
is
not
where
we
ought
to
place
the
emphasis
.
{sent}
clauses
4
and
5
are
the
clauses
which
require
employers
to
do
specific
things
with
respect
to
equity
.
{sent}
those
are
the
particular
clauses
which
need
the
teeth
and
not
clause
6
.
{sent}
mr.
alan
redway
(
york
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
listened
with
interest
to
the
hon.
member
's
comments
with
respect
to
enforcement
provisions
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
this
bill
was
introduced
in
the
house
for
first
reading
in
june
of
1985
.
{sent}
that
is
almost
one
year
ago
.
{sent}
there
was
debate
on
the
bill
at
that
time
.
{sent}
there
was
debate
on
the
bill
at
second
reading
stage
.
{sent}
there
was
debate
on
the
bill
in
committee
.
{sent}
here
we
are
now
back
with
it
in
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
so
it
has
had
a
great
deal
of
debate
.
{sent}
i
know
that
the
hon.
member
has
been
a
party
to
that
debate
.
{sent}
i
know
that
he
realizes
in
his
heart
of
hearts
that
there
is
an
enforcement
mechanism
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
in
part
of
his
remarks
he
referred
to
the
fact
that
there
is
such
a
mechanism
.
{sent}
quite
clearly
,
as
hon.
members
are
aware
,
the
bill
provides
that
there
must
first
be
a
plan
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
where
is
the
enforcement
?
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
it
provides
that
there
must
be
a
plan
.
{sent}
of
course
,
that
is
set
out
in
clause
5
.
{sent}
as
the
hon.
member
is
also
aware
,
the
bill
provides
that
the
minister
set
out
the
requirements
of
the
plan
,
which
is
set
out
in
clause
12
.
{sent}
under
the
provisions
of
that
clause
a
minister
can
issue
regulations
as
to
the
guidelines
for
the
plan
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
what
if
they
don't
?
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
the
hon.
member
knows
quite
well
that
under
clause
6
of
the
bill
there
are
provisions
for
the
plan
and
the
report
.
{sent}
the
subject
matter
of
the
plan
has
to
be
filed
with
the
minister
and
filed
in
the
house
.
{sent}
first
,
there
is
a
clause
for
requiring
compliance
with
the
plan
,
as
the
hon.
member
well
knows
.
{sent}
by
passing
this
bill
and
by
requiring
that
the
plan
be
filed
,
then
the
evidence
will
be
available
in
order
to
provide
the
human
rights
commission
and
--
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
with
all
due
respect
,
i
know
that
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
(
mr.
redway
)
would
not
want
to
leave
on
the
record
information
which
could
be
misleading
and
which
is
misleading
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
there
is
no
penalty
for
not
filing
the
plan
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
to
interrupt
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
that
is
not
a
point
of
order
,
it
is
a
point
of
debate
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
(
mr.
redway
)
has
the
floor
.
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
mr.
speaker
,
just
to
respond
to
the
hon.
member
's
non-point
of
order
,
if
i
may
.
{sent}
clause
6
of
the
bill
requires
the
filing
of
the
report
and
clause
7
imposes
a
penalty
for
not
filing
it
.
{sent}
to
go
on
,
once
the
report
is
filed
the
information
is
then
available
,
information
which
has
been
lacking
in
the
past
,
for
the
human
rights
commission
to
go
ahead
and
deal
with
the
matter
.
{sent}
quite
clearly
,
the
hon.
member
,
and
all
hon.
members
in
the
opposition
,
know
this
.
{sent}
they
know
it
in
their
heart
of
hearts
.
{sent}
if
they
were
coming
clean
with
the
house
,
as
they
always
tell
members
of
the
government
to
do
,
then
they
would
be
telling
us
that
this
is
a
great
bill
.
{sent}
it
is
the
first
time
that
federal
legislation
of
this
sort
has
come
forward
.
{sent}
perhaps
hon.
members
want
to
go
one
step
further
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
it
was
not
designated
as
a
target
group
until
our
government
came
to
office
in
1985
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
we
love
to
hear
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
(
mr.
redway
)
speak
.
{sent}
but
,
for
heaven
's
sake
,
when
he
speaks
he
should
speak
the
truth
.
{sent}
that
is
an
absolute
falsehood
and
he
knows
it
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
that
is
debate
.
{sent}
it
is
not
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
if
the
hon.
member
wishes
to
participate
in
debate
she
will
have
an
opportunity
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
.
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
i
certainly
hope
the
hon.
member
will
repeat
that
outside
the
house
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
with
pleasure
.
{sent}
sue
me
and
i
will
see
you
in
court
.
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
i
will
be
looking
forward
to
it
in
the
same
way
i
looked
forward
to
her
tabling
some
documents
in
another
debate
which
she
said
she
would
table
and
never
did
.
{sent}
just
to
conclude
--
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
if
the
hon.
member
understood
the
rules
of
the
house
he
would
recognize
that
ordinary
members
do
not
have
the
right
to
table
documents
.
{sent}
i
am
surprised
that
we
do
not
have
compassion
in
the
house
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
has
the
floor
.
{sent}
if
the
hon.
member
for
hamilton
east
(
ms.
copps
)
wishes
to
participate
in
the
debate
then
she
will
have
that
opportunity
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
we
have
now
had
the
benediction
,
let
's
have
the
speech
!
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
as
i
have
indicated
,
there
is
an
enforcement
mechanism
in
the
legislation
.
{sent}
it
is
the
intention
to
ensure
that
there
is
employment
equity
for
those
four
target
groups
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
not
the
intention
of
the
government
to
try
to
enforce
this
provision
by
putting
people
in
jail
.
{sent}
it
is
the
intention
of
the
government
to
bring
that
enforcement
about
in
an
orderly
and
logical
fashion
.
{sent}
that
is
what
this
legislation
is
geared
at
.
{sent}
there
are
many
examples
in
the
united
states
of
legislation
of
this
sort
.
{sent}
time
and
time
again
it
has
been
proved
that
that
does
not
work
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
i
was
present
at
a
debate
in
a
committee
of
the
house
of
representatives
in
washington
last
fall
when
members
of
the
committee
were
debating
that
very
issue
.
{sent}
at
that
time
,
the
administration
had
been
called
on
the
carpet
because
the
system
which
it
had
put
in
place
did
not
work
.
{sent}
the
system
being
put
in
place
by
this
bill
will
work
.
{sent}
if
it
does
not
work
there
will
be
other
steps
and
other
measures
to
come
in
the
future
.
{sent}
the
system
which
has
been
put
in
place
by
this
bill
is
the
first
step
.
{sent}
it
is
the
first
step
which
has
been
taken
by
any
canadian
government
.
{sent}
it
will
be
an
effective
first
step
.
{sent}
employers
are
already
hurrying
to
ensure
that
they
are
in
line
by
the
time
this
piece
of
legislation
passes
into
law
.
{sent}
at
the
same
time
,
i
think
it
is
incumbent
upon
the
government
to
ensure
that
its
measures
with
the
public
service
are
hand-in-hand
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
the
government
will
be
doing
just
that
.
{sent}
with
that
,
i
would
urge
the
house
to
pass
this
legislation
as
quickly
as
possible
,
bearing
in
mind
that
it
was
introduced
in
the
house
almost
one
year
ago
.
{sent}
it
is
about
time
we
put
it
into
law
.
{sent}
it
may
be
that
the
rules
do
not
provide
for
the
tabling
of
documents
by
private
members
but
,
nonetheless
,
when
a
private
member
says
he
is
going
to
do
it
one
would
think
he
would
do
it
.
{sent}
i
might
say
that
he
has
blatantly
misled
the
house
and
the
canadian
people
on
several
points
.
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
i
think
that
is
an
unparliamentary
remark
and
should
be
withdrawn
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
the
same
point
of
order
.
{sent}
it
may
be
that
the
use
of
the
word
"
blatant
"
is
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
just
a
moment
.
{sent}
does
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
north
(
mr.
orlikow
)
have
something
to
contribute
to
this
?
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
a
point
of
order
,
yes
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
before
i
entertain
a
point
of
order
,
could
i
see
the
table
officers
?
{sent}
i
did
hear
some
awfully
strong
language
coming
from
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
he
really
meant
what
he
said
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
he
would
withdraw
at
least
that
portion
of
the
statement
and
carry
on
with
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
do
not
know
what
part
of
my
remarks
you
disapprove
of
,
but
if
it
is
the
word
"
blatant
"
i
will
withdraw
that
word
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
my
strong
conviction
that
the
hon.
member
has
misled
the
house
in
the
remarks
he
just
made
.
{sent}
i
think
that
is
parliamentary
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
will
go
along
with
that
,
but
i
feel
that
that
is
still
very
strong
language
according
to
statements
that
should
be
made
in
the
house
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
we
could
carry
on
with
fellowship
and
compassion
.
{sent}
does
the
hon.
member
have
another
point
of
order
?
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
mr.
speaker
,
he
repeated
again
a
statement
which
i
believe
is
unparliamentary
and
should
be
withdrawn
.
{sent}
if
it
is
your
ruling
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
it
was
not
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
will
hear
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
mr.
redway
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
my
submission
that
the
phrase
used
by
the
hon.
member
that
the
house
was
misled
by
me
is
an
unparliamentary
statement
and
should
be
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
would
the
hon.
member
mind
resuming
his
seat
?
{sent}
the
hon.
member
withdrew
the
word
"
blatant
"
.
{sent}
that
is
why
i
asked
the
hon.
member
to
withdraw
.
{sent}
he
has
done
so
and
,
therefore
,
i
think
he
should
carry
on
with
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
substantiate
some
of
the
things
i
just
said
and
describe
how
the
public
and
the
house
could
be
misled
by
those
remarks
.
{sent}
as
i
said
earlier
,
clause
2
of
the
bill
indicates
that
the
purpose
of
this
bill
is
to
achieve
equality
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
that
is
fine
.
{sent}
that
is
great
rhetoric
of
which
we
all
approve
.
{sent}
clause
4
of
the
bill
says
that
an
employer
shall
implement
employment
equity
by
identifying
and
eliminating
barriers
to
employment
for
certain
groups
.
{sent}
that
is
fine
too
.
{sent}
it
also
says
that
an
employer
shall
implement
employment
equity
by
instituting
positive
policies
and
practices
to
achieve
a
greater
degree
of
representation
for
the
target
groups
.
{sent}
the
bill
requires
employers
to
do
certain
things
but
nowhere
in
the
bill
is
there
a
penalty
attached
if
employers
do
not
do
those
things
.
{sent}
clause
6
simply
requires
the
employer
to
file
information
regarding
the
composition
of
his
workforce
.
{sent}
as
i
pointed
out
the
other
day
,
he
could
keep
on
reporting
year
after
year
that
the
composition
of
his
workforce
has
remained
the
same
.
{sent}
he
could
have
employed
one
woman
in
year
one
,
one
woman
in
year
two
and
one
woman
in
year
three
and
he
would
not
be
subject
to
any
penalty
.
{sent}
the
subamendment
to
my
amendment
put
forward
by
the
ndp
applies
a
penalty
to
clauses
4
,
5
and
6
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
the
clause
would
then
read
that
an
employer
who
fails
to
comply
with
sections
4
,
5
and
6
is
guilty
of
an
offence
.
{sent}
if
he
can
demonstrate
to
me
that
there
is
a
penalty
in
this
bill
for
not
living
up
to
the
obligations
under
clauses
4
and
5
,
i
will
eat
this
bill
on
the
floor
of
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
i
am
convinced
that
he
cannot
show
me
that
.
{sent}
not
only
that
,
not
one
of
the
target
groups
that
appeared
before
the
legislative
committee
saw
that
there
was
any
penalty
attached
to
those
cluases
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
not
one
of
them
would
agree
with
him
.
{sent}
if
he
had
attended
the
demonstration
the
other
day
and
said
what
he
said
here
in
the
house
,
he
would
have
been
tarred
and
feathered
by
those
disabled
people
despite
their
disabilities
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
the
hon.
member
has
not
even
read
the
amendments
we
put
forward
.
{sent}
no
one
is
suggesting
that
employers
be
put
into
prison
,
as
he
was
mentioning
a
few
moments
ago
,
for
not
living
up
to
the
obligations
under
this
bill
.
{sent}
my
further
amendment
which
is
now
under
discussion
suggests
that
the
fine
should
be
increased
from
$
50,000
to
$
500,000
but
no
one
has
put
forward
an
amendment
suggesting
that
we
imprison
employers
if
they
do
not
live
up
to
the
obligations
.
{sent}
that
is
a
red
herring
that
the
hon.
member
has
thrown
on
the
floor
before
us
.
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
smells
like
a
tuna
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
the
hon.
member
also
said
that
this
is
the
first
time
a
government
has
put
a
bill
before
parliament
to
deal
with
discrimination
against
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
these
people
who
were
elected
in
1984
do
not
know
what
happened
before
1984
.
{sent}
for
him
to
suggest
that
this
is
the
first
time
any
bill
has
been
put
before
the
house
dealing
with
discrimination
on
the
basis
of
racial
minorities
is
completely
false
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
is
not
even
familiar
with
the
canadian
human
rights
act
which
was
passed
by
the
house
in
1977
and
also
deals
with
discrimination
against
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
let
us
not
hear
conservative
blarney
about
this
being
the
first
time
anyone
has
done
anything
about
discrimination
based
on
race
,
religion
,
ethnic
origin
and
the
like
.
{sent}
they
are
not
familiar
with
what
took
place
.
{sent}
they
are
reading
the
press
releases
put
out
by
the
minister
,
but
they
are
not
telling
the
truth
,
and
everyone
knows
it
.
{sent}
mr.
david
orlikow
(
winnipeg
north
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
sorry
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
(
mr.
redway
)
has
left
the
chamber
.
{sent}
even
though
he
is
not
here
,
i
should
like
to
say
that
i
do
not
remember
when
i
have
heard
so
many
misstatements
of
fact
and
so
much
ignorance
displayed
in
a
10-minute
speech
as
i
heard
in
his
speech
.
{sent}
every
group
representing
these
people
has
registered
very
strong
objections
to
the
bill
and
has
said
that
it
will
not
do
the
job
.
{sent}
what
does
the
bill
indicate
?
{sent}
in
clause
4
it
indicates
that
an
employer
shall
,
in
consultation
with
such
persons
as
have
been
designated
by
the
employees
,
implement
plans
.
{sent}
if
there
is
no
union
,
i
do
not
know
with
whom
the
employees
would
consult
,
but
i
will
ignore
that
point
for
the
moment
.
{sent}
clause
5
indicates
that
an
employer
shall
prepare
a
plan
,
and
clause
6
indicates
that
the
employer
shall
file
with
the
minister
a
report
in
respect
to
what
is
being
done
.
{sent}
it
has
already
been
pointed
out
that
there
is
no
penalty
if
an
employer
does
not
file
a
plan
.
{sent}
however
,
i
have
a
much
more
serious
objection
.
{sent}
what
about
employers
who
file
plans
which
do
not
do
what
the
bill
wants
them
to
do
?
{sent}
there
is
no
penalty
for
that
.
{sent}
an
employer
could
file
a
plan
every
year
in
which
he
or
she
essentially
says
that
nothing
will
be
done
,
and
there
is
no
penalty
for
that
.
{sent}
let
me
deal
for
a
moment
with
the
alleged
analysis
of
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
about
what
happened
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
i
do
this
because
i
spent
about
a
dozen
years
working
with
the
canadian
labour
congress
and
other
community
organizations
on
the
entire
question
of
human
rights
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
is
wrong
.
{sent}
he
either
does
not
know
the
facts
,
or
he
does
not
want
us
to
know
the
facts
.
{sent}
i
do
not
want
to
be
called
to
order
because
i
am
using
unparliamentary
language
,
so
i
will
try
to
be
careful
in
what
i
say
.
{sent}
he
is
just
wrong
.
{sent}
people
in
the
united
states
have
not
been
put
in
jail
,
but
the
american
law
requires
employers
to
perform
.
{sent}
the
american
law
calls
upon
employers
to
have
objectives
,
not
just
theoretical
objectives
.
{sent}
it
calls
upon
them
to
have
numerical
goals
and
to
report
on
how
they
meet
them
.
{sent}
i
know
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
and
the
government
do
not
like
that
,
and
i
know
canadian
employers
have
expressed
opposition
to
it
.
{sent}
it
has
worked
in
the
united
states
and
the
national
association
of
manufacturers
has
said
that
it
likes
it
.
{sent}
there
is
an
ongoing
debate
in
the
united
states
which
now
has
the
most
pro-business
administration
it
has
had
in
over
50
years
.
{sent}
because
of
their
ideological
approach
to
things
,
some
of
president
reagan
's
advisors
want
to
get
rid
of
the
numerical
goals
.
{sent}
canadians
know
secretary
of
labour
bill
brock
because
he
was
trade
negotiator
for
a
while
.
{sent}
he
is
urging
the
president
and
the
administration
to
keep
the
numerical
goals
.
{sent}
the
association
went
on
to
indicate
:
"
tell
us
what
you
want
us
to
do
and
we
will
do
it
.
{sent}
then
no
one
will
be
able
to
criticize
us
for
not
doing
what
the
law
says
and
no
one
will
be
able
to
take
us
to
court
"
.
{sent}
i
have
a
question
for
the
hon.
member
for
york
east
,
for
the
minister
and
for
the
conservative
government
which
says
that
it
wants
to
speak
for
all
canadians
.
{sent}
why
will
they
not
accept
the
arguments
of
the
organizations
representing
the
very
people
the
bill
is
supposed
to
help
?
{sent}
they
do
not
have
to
accept
the
arguments
of
hon.
members
of
the
opposition
parties
;
we
only
make
our
cases
for
blatant
political
and
partisan
reasons
!
{sent}
i
say
to
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
that
i
have
not
been
enthused
or
impressed
by
the
efforts
of
the
former
government
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
,
if
one
looks
at
american
television
programming
,
sometimes
one
sees
a
post
office
in
new
york
,
chicago
or
los
angeles
.
{sent}
one
cannot
help
but
be
struck
by
the
large
number
of
non-white
people
who
are
working
in
the
post
office
.
{sent}
i
just
use
that
as
an
example
.
{sent}
i
venture
to
say
that
if
one
looked
at
a
canadian
post
office
in
vancouver
,
toronto
or
winnipeg
,
one
would
see
very
few
non-white
people
working
there
.
{sent}
our
record
in
providing
employment
for
members
of
minority
groups
is
not
a
good
one
.
{sent}
we
have
a
long
way
to
go
and
a
lot
for
which
we
should
be
apologetic
.
{sent}
mr.
gerry
weiner
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
all
hon.
members
of
the
house
share
a
common
goal
,
employment
equity
.
{sent}
however
,
there
are
some
philosophical
differences
and
techniques
.
{sent}
some
very
useful
discussion
has
taken
place
over
the
last
eight
or
nine
months
,
but
that
is
what
it
is
all
about
.
{sent}
that
is
what
the
democratic
process
is
all
about
.
{sent}
that
is
what
the
house
of
commons
is
for
.
{sent}
we
cannot
agree
on
exactly
how
it
will
be
put
into
effect
,
but
we
all
want
the
same
results
.
{sent}
with
concern
being
shown
and
with
heart
being
put
into
the
debate
,
we
know
that
all
canadians
will
be
well
protected
by
the
supervision
,
surveillance
and
guidance
of
all
members
of
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
in
this
particular
motion
we
are
being
asked
for
prescribed
goals
and
timetables
.
{sent}
we
had
a
feeling
that
that
would
mean
more
quotas
,
a
new
enforcement
agency
and
more
regulatory
bodies
.
{sent}
those
are
the
things
we
wanted
to
avoid
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
clarify
the
following
because
it
may
need
some
clarification
.
{sent}
mr.
fairweather
stated
that
reports
submitted
under
section
5
would
give
enough
evidence
of
systemic
discrimination
.
{sent}
it
is
exactly
what
the
commission
wanted
,
and
how
it
will
deal
with
data
was
included
in
its
testimony
.
{sent}
if
results
are
bad
,
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
can
conduct
an
investigation
,
including
access
to
the
action
plans
.
{sent}
if
the
investigation
of
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
leads
to
evidence
of
systemic
discrimination
,
the
chrc
can
impose
penalties
under
section
41
of
the
canadian
human
rights
act
.
{sent}
the
bill
is
mandatory
in
two
ways
--
failure
to
report
and
the
action
of
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
.
{sent}
motion
no.
32a
would
have
the
fine
increased
from
$
50,000
to
$
500,000
.
{sent}
we
feel
that
$
50,000
is
realistic
.
{sent}
it
is
in
accordance
with
other
legislation
,
such
as
the
canadian
human
rights
act
.
{sent}
for
these
reasons
i
am
opposed
to
the
two
motions
now
being
discussed
.
{sent}
mrs.
lucie
pépin
(
outremont
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
in
support
of
the
amendment
.
{sent}
i
heard
my
colleague
say
earlier
that
we
all
had
the
same
objective
in
discussing
this
bill
because
we
supposedly
all
want
to
achieve
equality
.
{sent}
he
added
that
all
canadians
would
be
much
happier
with
a
bill
such
as
this
one
if
it
were
to
receive
passage
without
any
changes
.
{sent}
as
for
me
,
i
would
be
rather
surprised
if
satisfactory
results
could
be
achieved
before
certain
changes
are
made
and
certain
penalties
are
included
.
{sent}
they
all
referred
to
the
lack
of
seriousness
and
will
shown
by
the
government
because
no
penalty
was
provided
and
the
bill
had
no
teeth
.
{sent}
we
have
the
impression
that
this
bill
will
be
another
smokescreen
as
often
happens
with
the
bills
aimed
at
women
which
this
government
introduces
.
{sent}
if
we
compare
the
abella
report
with
this
bill
,
we
have
the
impression
that
the
measure
as
it
now
stands
is
a
travesty
of
the
report
.
{sent}
we
all
know
that
,
without
penalties
,
it
is
impossible
to
have
an
acceptable
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
all
that
is
being
asked
of
the
employers
is
to
submit
a
report
in
two
years
,
in
1988
,
and
we
cannot
even
know
their
action
plan
.
{sent}
the
human
rights
chief
commissioner
came
twice
before
the
committee
to
make
a
submission
and
to
say
how
important
it
was
to
include
penalties
in
this
bill
.
{sent}
my
conservative
colleagues
might
want
to
brag
that
this
government
is
doing
something
for
women
,
but
i
would
like
them
to
be
much
more
serious
about
it
than
they
are
now
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
motion
no.
31a
{sent}
"
7
.
{sent}
an
employer
who
fails
to
comply
is
guilty
of
an
offense
and
liable
on
"
.
{sent}
the
first
question
is
on
the
amendment
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
,
moved
:
{sent}
that
motion
no.
31a
be
amended
as
follows
by
deleting
the
following
words
:
{sent}
"
is
guilty
of
an
offence
and
liable
on
"
and
substituting
the
following
therefore
:
{sent}
"
with
sections
4
,
5
and
6
is
guilty
of
an
offence
and
liable
on
"
.
{sent}
the
question
is
on
the
amendment
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
amendment
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
of
the
amendment
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
subamendment
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
at
the
same
time
i
must
put
motion
32a
.
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
i
believe
the
amendment
to
motions
nos.
31a
and
32a
have
been
debated
but
not
the
motions
themselves
.
{sent}
the
amendment
to
those
motions
has
not
been
completed
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
speak
to
this
motion
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
must
say
to
the
hon.
member
for
eglinton
--
lawrence
(
mr.
de
corneille
)
that
all
three
items
were
before
the
house
when
this
debate
was
carried
on
.
{sent}
the
grouping
was
motions
nos.
31a
and
32a
and
the
amendment
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
i
can
allow
the
hon.
member
to
speak
with
regard
to
the
main
amendment
.
{sent}
the
member
should
have
known
what
was
taking
place
.
{sent}
i
have
to
put
the
question
on
the
main
amendment
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
as
you
know
,
in
the
first
place
i
moved
motions
nos.
31a
and
32a
together
because
that
is
how
they
were
grouped
by
the
speaker
.
{sent}
we
started
the
debate
on
that
.
{sent}
then
the
new
democratic
party
moved
an
amendment
to
my
motion
no.
31a
.
{sent}
at
that
point
members
were
addressing
the
subamendment
to
my
amendment
.
{sent}
that
subamendment
has
just
been
disposed
of
.
{sent}
now
we
should
be
returning
to
the
original
debate
on
motions
nos.
31a
and
32a
which
were
grouped
for
debate
by
the
speaker
.
{sent}
the
speaker
did
not
predict
that
there
would
be
a
subamendment
to
those
two
original
motions
.
{sent}
one
could
not
address
the
original
two
motions
while
addressing
the
subamendment
.
{sent}
we
had
to
dispose
of
the
subamendment
first
before
we
addressed
the
principles
embodied
in
the
original
amendment
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
there
is
one
question
before
the
house
.
{sent}
in
that
situation
i
think
members
who
did
not
have
an
opportunity
to
speak
on
motion
no.
31a
and
motion
32a
should
have
an
opportunity
to
do
so
.
{sent}
motions
nos.
31a
and
32a
were
grouped
along
with
the
amendment
.
{sent}
the
vote
was
to
take
place
.
{sent}
it
is
my
understanding
that
there
has
been
consultation
with
the
table
.
{sent}
the
speaker
has
ruled
on
this
previously
.
{sent}
with
the
unanimous
consent
of
the
house
,
i
will
allow
the
hon.
member
for
eglinton
--
lawrence
to
speak
for
10
minutes
on
motion
no.
32a
.
{sent}
i
will
recognize
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
waiting
for
my
turn
to
speak
to
the
motion
moved
by
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grace
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
.
{sent}
i
did
not
speak
on
the
subamendment
.
{sent}
i
do
not
want
to
disagree
with
the
speaker
,
but
perhaps
he
would
like
to
hold
that
in
abeyance
and
think
about
it
.
{sent}
the
speaker
's
ruling
grouped
motions
nos.
31a
and
32a
,
but
did
not
include
the
amendment
,
because
it
was
moved
after
the
decision
of
the
speaker
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
appreciate
what
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
is
saying
,
and
that
is
why
i
am
inclined
to
allow
the
member
for
eglinton
--
lawrence
to
speak
.
{sent}
does
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
wish
to
speak
on
motion
no.
32a
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
yes.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
will
allow
it
.
{sent}
i
will
now
recognize
the
hon.
member
for
eglinton
--
lawrence
.
{sent}
mr.
roland
de
corneille
(
eglinton
--
lawrence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
appreciate
your
decision
on
this
matter
.
{sent}
in
his
motion
the
member
suggests
that
the
penalty
should
be
increased
from
$
50,000
to
$
500,000
.
{sent}
martin
luther
king
said
that
legislation
,
the
law
is
a
teacher
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
as
well
as
punishing
people
,
it
teaches
.
{sent}
we
in
this
house
must
not
think
that
companies
should
escape
with
impunity
when
they
violate
human
rights
.
{sent}
many
companies
in
the
country
would
like
to
comply
with
human
rights
because
they
know
it
is
good
business
to
take
advantage
of
the
skills
and
abilities
of
the
entire
labour
force
.
{sent}
it
is
good
business
to
have
people
of
all
sexes
,
colours
,
and
creeds
portrayed
in
advertising
.
{sent}
enlightened
people
know
that
that
is
good
business
.
{sent}
however
,
some
people
are
not
enlightened
.
{sent}
they
hoped
for
this
because
other
companies
were
not
complying
and
were
able
to
escape
with
impunity
for
noncompliance
with
those
rules
.
{sent}
the
enlightened
people
in
the
country
thought
it
was
good
to
have
legislation
which
imposed
penalties
,
and
also
that
it
was
a
teacher
.
{sent}
we
should
think
not
only
of
human
rights
,
but
also
of
human
responsibilities
.
{sent}
through
this
legislation
we
are
trying
to
make
the
employer
responsible
.
{sent}
it
is
important
that
this
bill
makes
employers
understand
their
responsibility
and
that
society
will
not
tolerate
such
a
lack
of
responsibility
.
{sent}
companies
must
conform
to
human
rights
.
{sent}
ultimately
,
it
is
wrong
from
every
point
of
view
.
{sent}
therefore
,
we
must
not
allow
companies
and
organizations
to
defy
the
values
for
which
the
people
of
this
country
stand
.
{sent}
today
is
the
fourth
anniversary
of
the
signing
and
bringing
into
effect
of
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
.
{sent}
the
secretay
of
state
(
mr.
bouchard
)
is
throwing
a
beautiful
party
for
a
thousand
people
to
celebrate
this
occasion
.
{sent}
it
is
hypocritical
and
cynical
that
on
this
very
day
we
are
debating
in
the
house
of
commons
a
bill
which
has
absolutely
no
teeth
.
{sent}
it
is
silly
to
pretend
that
this
bill
has
any
compliance
requirements
or
penalties
at
all
.
{sent}
the
rest
of
the
bill
asks
people
to
do
certain
things
,
but
there
is
no
punishment
or
censure
for
noncompliance
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
in
its
present
form
,
this
bill
invites
them
to
be
hypocritical
and
to
be
part
of
a
system
which
only
pays
lip-service
.
{sent}
if
the
abella
commission
had
reported
otherwise
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
have
no
leg
to
stand
on
.
{sent}
if
the
affected
groups
were
not
outraged
and
disappointed
,
i
would
have
no
leg
to
stand
on
.
{sent}
however
,
despite
the
objections
of
all
the
groups
which
are
supposed
to
be
protected
by
this
legislation
,
the
government
ignores
their
advice
and
presses
forward
with
an
inadequate
bill
.
{sent}
let
this
not
be
a
paper
tiger
.
{sent}
let
it
not
be
said
that
something
was
done
for
the
minorities
.
{sent}
we
do
not
want
people
to
think
that
politicians
talk
through
their
hats
,
pretending
to
mean
something
when
they
do
not
.
{sent}
we
do
not
want
people
to
be
further
disillusioned
with
politics
in
a
democratic
system
.
{sent}
let
their
voices
be
heard
.
{sent}
certainly
it
is
placing
,
once
again
,
further
pressure
on
faith
in
the
democratic
processes
,
the
political
system
,
and
on
the
nature
of
politicians
and
their
ability
to
deliver
on
their
promises
.
{sent}
all
these
things
are
at
stake
.
{sent}
finally
,
and
above
all
,
what
is
at
stake
is
justice
for
those
people
who
have
waited
long
enough
.
{sent}
those
people
are
looking
for
justice
now
.
{sent}
it
is
not
fair
for
them
to
have
to
wait
with
eternal
optimism
,
as
does
the
member
of
parliament
on
the
other
side
.
{sent}
that
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
we
need
it
now
and
we
need
something
that
will
give
them
assurance
that
their
needs
will
be
respected
,
and
that
they
are
going
to
be
looked
after
now
,
at
long
last
.
{sent}
this
is
the
day
we
celebrate
the
charter
being
in
effect
for
a
year
.
{sent}
it
was
passed
four
years
ago
.
{sent}
notwithstanding
subsection
(
1
)
,
section
15
--
{sent}
this
is
from
the
canadian
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
.
{sent}
--
shall
not
have
effect
until
three
years
after
this
section
comes
into
force
.
{sent}
this
is
not
unheard
of
.
{sent}
god
knows
some
employers
are
not
overly
concerned
about
employment
safety
.
{sent}
the
same
thing
applies
to
the
handicapped
.
{sent}
yes
,
400
!
{sent}
in
ottawa-carleton
this
has
been
,
their
practice
for
five
or
six
,
or
maybe
it
was
three
years
.
{sent}
these
are
people
who
would
not
have
had
a
job
if
there
had
not
been
an
employer
who
was
able
to
meet
their
specific
needs
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
question
is
on
motion
no.
31a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
31a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
7
by
striking
out
lines
13
and
14
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
7
.
{sent}
an
employer
who
fails
to
comply
is
guilty
of
an
offence
and
liable
on
"
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
motion
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
the
question
is
on
motion
no.
32a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
32a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
7
by
striking
out
line
16
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
five
hundred
thousand
dollars
.
"
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motions
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
motion
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
hon.
members
will
know
that
motions
nos.
34
and
35
have
been
grouped
for
debate
and
will
be
voted
on
separately
.
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
,
for
mr.
nystrom
)
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
34
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
9
by
striking
out
line
23
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
year
under
section
6
and
a
consolidation
of
action
plans
received
in
that
year
under
section
5
,
and
shall
,
as
soon
as
"
.
{sent}
motion
no.
35
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
10
by
striking
out
lines
29
and
30
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
10
.
{sent}
each
action
plan
as
required
under
section
5
and
each
report
filed
with
the
minister
as
required
under
section
6
,
shall
be
available
for
public
"
.
{sent}
mr.
howard
mccurdy
(
windsor
--
walkerville
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
necessary
to
speak
only
briefly
on
the
need
for
these
two
amendments
.
{sent}
as
presently
written
,
the
bill
would
provide
only
that
there
be
consultation
and
analysis
of
the
snapshot
of
the
character
of
the
workforce
.
{sent}
what
is
intended
here
is
that
the
action
plan
would
be
included
in
the
consolidated
report
and
we
would
be
provided
with
an
analysis
which
would
be
tabled
by
the
minister
,
as
well
as
the
snapshot
.
{sent}
it
is
a
reasonable
amendment
and
would
provide
for
a
report
not
only
on
the
snapshot
but
on
the
employer
's
efforts
at
change
.
{sent}
that
is
an
obvious
need
and
these
are
amendments
which
should
certainly
be
concurred
in
by
the
government
.
{sent}
we
think
this
amendment
is
a
good
one
.
{sent}
mr.
gerry
weiner
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
disagree
.
{sent}
employers
action
plans
are
not
included
in
the
reporting
requirements
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
therefore
this
motion
cannot
be
enforced
.
{sent}
the
same
rationale
applies
to
motion
no.
35
,
so
we
would
be
opposed
to
both
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
question
is
on
motion
no.
34
,
in
the
name
of
mr.
nystrom
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
motion
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
the
next
question
is
on
motion
no.
35
,
in
the
name
of
mr.
nystrom
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
motion
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
the
next
motion
for
debate
is
no.
37a
.
{sent}
hon.
warren
allmand
(
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
)
moves
:
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
13
by
striking
out
line
19
at
page
5
in
the
french
version
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
parlement
un
rapport
concernant
l'examen
et
exposant
tous
les
chan-
"
.
{sent}
he
said
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
purpose
of
this
amendment
is
simply
to
correct
the
french
version
which
does
not
say
everything
the
english
version
says
.
{sent}
in
english
it
says
they
shall
submit
a
report
on
the
review
to
parliament
including
a
statement
of
any
changes
the
committee
would
recommend
.
{sent}
however
,
in
french
it
leaves
part
of
that
out
by
simply
saying
:
{sent}
--
présente
au
parlement
un
rapport
exposant
tous
les
changements
qu'il
peut
désirer
recommander
.
{sent}
my
amendment
would
--
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
mr.
gerry
weiner
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
agree
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
dick
:
great
speech
.
{sent}
mr.
weiner
:
this
merely
makes
the
french
and
english
versions
identical
,
as
the
hon.
member
indicated
,
so
we
should
all
vote
for
this
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
question
is
on
motion
no.
37a
in
the
name
of
mr.
allmand
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
motion
no.
37a
(
mr.
allmand
)
agreed
to
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
next
motion
for
debate
is
motion
no.
39
.
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
,
for
mr.
nystrom
)
moves
:
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
by
deleting
the
short
title
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
motion
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
the
next
question
is
on
motion
no.
39a
.
{sent}
hon.
warren
allmand
(
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
)
moves
:
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
by
deleting
the
short
title
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
he
said
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
purpose
of
this
amendment
is
to
change
the
name
of
this
bill
to
make
it
an
honest
bill
.
{sent}
if
the
bill
is
not
really
going
to
enforce
employment
equity
but
simply
require
reporting
,
then
let
us
call
it
what
it
is
.
{sent}
that
is
the
purpose
of
this
amendment
and
the
previous
one
.
{sent}
they
are
to
make
the
bill
an
honest
bill
and
not
mislead
the
public
.
{sent}
i
want
to
endorse
the
comments
of
my
friend
,
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
because
i
do
not
believe
this
bill
has
any
mandatory
enforcement
provisions
.
{sent}
it
has
absolutely
no
provision
for
penalties
for
companies
who
do
not
comply
.
{sent}
as
far
as
i
am
concerned
even
the
targets
are
secret
to
the
companies
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
the
house
would
see
fit
to
change
the
name
of
the
bill
to
reflect
what
it
really
is
.
{sent}
it
is
not
a
bill
which
achieves
,
or
even
aims
at
achieving
employment
equity
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
the
hon.
parliamentary
secretary
will
show
good
sense
with
respect
to
this
amendment
regarding
the
title
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
mr.
weiner
:
no
,
mr.
speaker
,
the
act
is
appropriately
named
.
{sent}
mr.
fennell
:
the
liberals
never
brought
in
anything
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
the
hon.
members
says
the
liberals
never
brought
in
anything
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
obviously
does
not
know
that
the
word
"
employment
equity
"
was
as
a
result
of
the
abella
report
which
commission
was
set
up
by
the
liberal
government
.
{sent}
it
was
the
first
party
to
introduce
in
1977
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
should
get
to
know
his
facts
.
{sent}
the
handicapped
chanted
quite
clearly
at
the
time
,
and
it
is
the
truth
:
"
mulroney
,
baloney
,
your
equity
bill
is
phoney
"
.
{sent}
that
is
exactly
what
they
mean
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
a
crying
shame
that
on
equality
day
we
are
talking
about
a
bill
which
is
absolute
nonsense
.
{sent}
mr.
roland
de
corneille
(
eglinton
--
lawrence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
obviously
we
are
coming
down
to
the
close
of
debate
on
motions
.
{sent}
this
is
the
last
motion
and
,
appropriately
,
it
is
last
because
the
question
is
about
the
title
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
there
are
many
native
people
and
minority
groups
all
waiting
for
legislation
which
would
give
them
strengthened
support
,
to
at
last
have
equality
.
{sent}
unfortunately
we
have
received
no
support
from
the
government
for
any
of
these
motions
.
{sent}
therefore
,
obviously
,
this
remains
a
reporting
bill
,
not
a
bill
which
achieves
anything
other
than
verbiage
.
{sent}
i
regret
,
therefore
,
that
we
must
support
a
motion
which
asks
for
change
of
the
name
of
this
legislation
to
the
"
employment
equity
reporting
act
"
because
it
is
nothing
more
than
reporting
.
{sent}
it
is
not
an
act
which
brings
about
equity
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
question
is
on
motion
no.
39
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
thank
you
.
{sent}
the
question
is
on
motion
no.
39a
standing
in
the
name
of
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
motion
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
the
house
will
now
proceed
with
the
recorded
divisions
deferred
at
the
report
stage
of
bill
c-62
,
an
act
respecting
employment
equity
.
{sent}
call
in
the
members
.
{sent}
and
the
division
bells
having
rung
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
first
question
is
on
motion
no.
1
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
1
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
2
by
striking
out
line
6
at
page
1
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
2
.
{sent}
the
purpose
of
this
act
is
to
promote
and
encourage
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
the
motion
(
mr.
nystrom
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
i
take
it
there
is
an
agreement
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
there
are
two
brief
matters
which
i
want
to
raise
.
{sent}
it
is
my
understanding
that
we
might
agree
to
have
the
vote
we
have
just
taken
count
for
all
the
outstanding
votes
.
{sent}
however
,
it
has
been
brought
to
my
attention
that
on
motion
no.
31a
the
yeas
and
nays
were
not
taken
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
take
it
,
on
motions
nos.
8
,
11a
,
12a
,
14a
,
16a
,
19b
,
21a
,
24
,
25a
,
26a
and
27a
,
that
the
vote
shall
count
as
just
recorded
.
{sent}
mr.
gray
(
windsor
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
unable
to
be
present
for
the
vote
just
taken
.
{sent}
since
i
have
now
entered
the
house
,
i
presume
my
vote
will
be
counted
with
the
others
of
the
official
opposition
on
the
motions
your
honour
just
read
out
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
yes.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
you
failed
to
mention
motions
nos.
39
and
39a
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
am
trying
to
do
it
in
some
order
.
{sent}
on
the
motions
so
far
called
there
is
an
understanding
,
with
the
addition
of
the
hon.
member
for
windsor
west
.
{sent}
mr.
gagnon
:
would
you
recognize
my
vote
,
please
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
the
next
vote
will
be
on
motion
no.
8
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
8
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
3
by
striking
out
lines
13
to
15
at
page
2
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
8
(
mr.
nystrom
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
11a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
11a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
3
by
adding
immediately
after
line
24
at
page
2
the
following
:
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
11a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
12a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
12a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
4
by
striking
out
line
30
at
page
2
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
ing
agent
,
or
with
such
persons
as
have
been
designated
by
the
designated
groups
to
act
as
their
representatives
,
implement
employment
equity
by
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
12a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
14a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
14a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
4
by
striking
out
line
33
at
page
2
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
except
those
in
conformity
with
the
canadian
human
rights
act
,
that
results
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
14a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
16a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
16a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
4
by
striking
out
line
46
at
page
2
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
eligibility
or
geography
according
to
whichever
of
these
reference
criteria
provides
the
most
opportunity
to
qualified
members
of
the
designated
groups
and
from
which
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
16a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
19b
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
19b
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
4
by
adding
immediately
after
line
2
at
page
3
the
following
:
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
19b
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
21a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
21a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
5
by
striking
out
lines
12
to
16
at
page
3
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
section
(
1
)
shall
be
{sent}
(
b
)
communicated
to
the
employer
's
employees
and
any
existing
bargaining
agent
;
and
{sent}
(
c
)
made
available
to
the
human
rights
commission
,
on
request
.
"
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
21a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
24
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
24
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
6
by
striking
out
line
22
at
page
3
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
ance
with
the
duties
imposed
on
the
employer
under
sections
4
and
5
and
further
in
accordance
with
prescribed
instructions
indicating
,
"
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
24
(
mr.
nystrom
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
25a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
25a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
6
by
striking
out
line
39
at
page
3
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
moted
,
trained
,
transferred
,
demoted
and
terminated
and
the
degree
of
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
25a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
26a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
26a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
6
by
adding
immediately
after
41
at
page
3
the
following
:
{sent}
"
(
e
)
the
number
of
individuals
in
designated
groups
who
apply
for
specific
openings
.
"
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
26a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
27a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
27a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
6
by
adding
immediately
after
line
41
at
page
3
the
following
:
{sent}
"
(
e
)
a
list
of
those
acts
undertaken
by
the
employer
pursuant
to
section
4
of
this
act
.
"
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
27a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
question
is
on
the
amendment
to
motion
no.
31a
.
{sent}
is
it
agreed
that
the
same
vote
shall
be
cast
on
the
amendment
to
motion
no.
31a
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
therefore
the
next
vote
is
on
the
amendment
to
motion
no.
31a
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
moves
:
{sent}
that
motion
no.
31a
be
amended
by
inserting
immediately
after
the
word
"
comply
"
,
the
words
"
with
sections
4
,
5
and
6
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
the
amendment
(
mr.
cassidy
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
amendment
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
question
is
on
motion
no.
31a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
31a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
7
by
striking
out
lines
13
and
14
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
7
.
{sent}
an
employer
who
fails
to
comply
is
guilty
of
an
offence
and
liable
on
"
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
all
those
in
favour
will
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
all
those
opposed
will
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
31a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
i
take
it
there
is
agreement
to
apply
the
same
recorded
vote
to
motions
nos.
32a
,
34
,
35
,
39
and
39a
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
therefore
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
32a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
32a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
7
by
striking
out
line
16
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
five
hundred
thousand
dollars
.
"
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
32a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
34
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
34
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
9
by
striking
out
line
23
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
year
under
section
6
and
a
consolidation
of
action
plans
received
in
that
year
under
section
5
,
and
shall
,
as
soon
as
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
34
(
mr.
nystrom
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
35
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
35
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
in
clause
10
by
striking
out
lines
29
and
30
at
page
4
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
10
.
{sent}
each
action
plan
as
required
under
section
5
and
each
report
filed
with
the
minister
as
required
under
section
6
,
shall
be
available
for
public
"
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
35
(
mr.
nystrom
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
39
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
39
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
by
deleting
the
short
title
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
this
act
may
be
cited
as
the
employers
human
resources
reporting
act
.
"
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
39
(
mr.
nystrom
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
the
next
vote
is
on
motion
no.
39a
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
moves
:
{sent}
motion
no.
39a
{sent}
that
bill
c-62
,
be
amended
by
deleting
the
short
title
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
this
act
may
be
cited
as
the
employment
equity
reporting
act
.
"
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
motion
no.
39a
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
lost
.
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
moved
that
the
bill
,
as
amended
,
be
concurred
in
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
all
those
in
favour
will
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
all
those
opposed
will
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
in
my
opinion
the
yeas
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
shall
i
dispense
with
the
ringing
of
the
bells
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
in
addition
to
the
hon.
member
for
renfrew
--
nipissing
--
pembroke
(
mr.
hopkins
)
in
opposition
,
shall
i
count
the
same
vote
but
reversed
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
the
motion
(
miss
macdonald
)
,
which
was
agreed
to
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
39
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
carried
.
{sent}
when
shall
the
bill
be
read
a
third
time
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
now
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
at
the
next
sitting
of
the
house
.
{sent}
mr.
fretz
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
in
the
absence
of
the
minister
of
state
for
mines
(
mr.
layton
)
,
i
should
like
it
clearly
recorded
that
he
would
have
voted
with
the
government
had
he
been
here
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
shame
,
shame
!
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
ambition
has
no
bounds
.
{sent}
it
being
1.15
p.m.
i
do
now
leave
the
chair
until
2
p.m.
{sent}
at
1.15
p.m.
the
house
took
recess
.
{sent}
s.o.
21
{sent}
after
recess
{sent}
the
house
resumed
at
2
p.m.
{sent}
statements
pursuant
to
s.o.
21
{sent}
charter
of
rights
{sent}
aid
to
litigants
{sent}
we
note
that
corporations
have
been
the
most
successful
users
of
the
charter
in
their
own
interests
.
{sent}
they
have
the
money
to
take
the
government
to
court
in
lengthy
,
costly
court
challenges
.
{sent}
while
business
can
deduct
the
costs
,
individuals
cannot
.
{sent}
there
are
55
cases
waiting
for
financial
help
to
start
the
process
toward
justice
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
external
affairs
{sent}
canada
--
united
states
extradition
treaty
--
case
of
leonard
peltier
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
10
years
ago
leonard
peltier
was
extradited
from
canada
on
the
basis
of
information
provided
by
the
united
states
government
.
{sent}
the
u.s.
has
now
admitted
that
the
information
was
false
.
{sent}
this
constitutes
a
treaty
fraud
between
our
nations
,
and
should
we
sleep
on
this
case
we
can
surely
expect
a
repetition
in
the
future
.
{sent}
it
is
the
responsibility
of
the
minister
of
justice
(
mr.
crosbie
)
to
remedy
this
through
his
counterpart
in
the
united
states
,
and
of
the
secretary
of
states
for
external
affairs
(
mr.
clark
)
to
do
the
same
.
{sent}
leonard
peltier
is
an
ojibway
lakota
indian
who
sought
political
asylum
in
canada
.
{sent}
for
10
years
he
has
been
held
in
u.s.
prisons
serving
two
consecutive
life
sentences
for
crimes
it
now
appears
he
did
not
commit
.
{sent}
the
u.s.
congress
has
charged
that
evidence
brought
forward
on
the
peltier
case
clearly
indicates
"
government
abuse
of
the
investigative
process
,
suppression
of
evidence
,
and
falsehood
"
.
{sent}
religious
leaders
from
around
the
world
,
four
winners
of
the
nobel
peace
prize
,
55
members
of
congress
,
and
many
others
,
have
appealed
for
a
new
trial
for
leonard
peltier
.
{sent}
the
least
we
can
do
as
a
house
of
commons
is
call
for
a
new
and
fair
trial
.
{sent}
as
a
nation
we
should
also
call
for
the
return
of
leonard
peltier
.
{sent}
he
was
fraudulantly
extradited
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
abortion
{sent}
practices
of
approval
committees
{sent}
this
legislation
has
become
even
more
relevant
with
revelations
with
week
of
more
evidence
about
the
functioning
of
therapeutic
abortion
committees
.
{sent}
questions
have
been
raised
about
whether
applications
are
considered
in
fact
or
whether
they
are
just
rubber-stamped
.
{sent}
this
issue
is
a
difficult
one
for
many
canadians
.
{sent}
there
are
millions
who
occupy
one
side
of
the
debate
or
the
other
.
{sent}
it
is
for
precisely
this
reason
that
it
must
be
addressed
.
{sent}
the
abortion
approval
process
is
a
matter
that
requires
clarification
.
{sent}
mothers
,
doctors
,
and
child
protection
agencies
must
know
the
requirements
of
canada
's
criminal
code
on
this
issue
.
{sent}
it
is
clear
that
practices
have
developed
which
are
well
outside
the
spirit
of
the
criminal
code
.
{sent}
many
doctors
may
be
unwittingly
breaching
the
criminal
code
and
are
parties
to
criminal
offences
.
{sent}
youth
{sent}
international
promotion
of
"
just
say
no
"
anti-drug
campaign
{sent}
mr.
michel
champagne
(
champlain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
should
like
to
draw
to
the
attention
of
the
house
a
significant
event
which
concerns
us
all
regardless
of
age
,
province
or
political
party
.
{sent}
a
large
group
of
young
canadians
accompanied
by
the
polgar
sisters
of
hungary
,
the
world
chess
champions
,
are
working
on
the
international
promotion
of
the
"
just
say
no
"
anti-drug
campaign
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
offer
them
my
full
support
because
these
young
people
are
striving
to
restore
peace
in
the
world
,
an
endeavour
at
which
our
elders
have
failed
in
many
cases
.
{sent}
shipbuilding
{sent}
city
of
vancouver
's
resolution
{sent}
mr.
dave
dingwall
(
cape
breton
--
east
richmond
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
january
the
canadian
shipbuilding
and
ship
repairing
association
said
the
following
:
{sent}
the
outlook
for
canada
's
shipbuilding
and
allied
industries
during
1986
will
remain
dismal
without
immmediate
government
policy
action
.
{sent}
the
city
of
vancouver
has
passed
a
resolution
which
reads
as
follows
:
{sent}
whereas
canada
's
sovereignty
over
its
arctic
territories
has
been
challenged
;
{sent}
and
whereas
this
challenge
can
only
be
met
if
canada
asserts
its
sovereignty
through
meaningful
development
of
the
canadian
north
and
the
construction
of
appropriate
ships
with
icebreaking
capability
;
{sent}
and
whereas
the
west
coast
shipbuilding
industry
has
developed
a
highly
competitive
ability
to
build
such
ships
;
{sent}
and
whereas
the
continuation
and
well-being
of
the
shipbuilding
industry
in
north
vancouver
is
of
enormous
economic
importance
not
only
to
north
vancouver
but
to
the
whole
region
;
{sent}
and
whereas
the
conservative
government
promised
a
meaningful
job
creation
program
in
the
west
;
{sent}
and
whereas
the
north
vancouver
shipbuilding
industry
now
faces
virtual
extinction
with
disastrous
economic
consequence
unless
immediate
action
is
taken
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
energy
{sent}
effect
of
falling
oil
prices
on
small
companies
{sent}
mr.
ian
waddell
(
vancouver
--
kingsway
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
canada
has
a
problem
in
alberta
.
{sent}
alberta
faces
the
bleak
prospect
of
losing
jobs
,
money
,
and
people
as
a
result
of
the
dramatic
fall
in
the
price
of
crude
oil
.
{sent}
for
example
,
as
many
as
15,000
jobs
on
drilling
rigs
may
be
lost
by
the
end
of
this
year
.
{sent}
david
hatter
,
a
respected
writer
,
said
in
the
financial
post
:
{sent}
then
"
americanization
"
of
the
canadian
oil
industry
is
under
way
again
,
with
major
u.s.
firms
bidding
for
the
remains
of
canadian-owned
companies
that
have
been
mortally
wounded
by
collapsing
world
oil
prices
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
offer
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
(
miss
carney
)
the
co-operation
of
the
new
democratic
party
.
{sent}
i
think
a
floor
price
is
a
better
answer
.
{sent}
however
,
we
have
an
open
mind
.
{sent}
if
the
minister
introduces
legislation
to
give
fair
help
to
the
canadian
oil
industry
,
she
will
have
the
support
of
the
new
democratic
party
.
{sent}
canadian
broadcasting
corporation
{sent}
possible
closure
of
stations
in
gaspé
region
{sent}
incidentally
,
10,000
gaspé
peninsula
residents
have
signed
a
petition
to
express
their
deep
concern
and
determination
concerning
that
issue
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
aware
that
this
is
a
time
for
retraints
and
cut-backs
,
but
it
would
be
unacceptable
and
shameful
if
communities
which
are
already
quite
underprivileged
were
to
be
the
victims
.
{sent}
among
others
,
matane
's
station
has
been
promoting
regional
interests
for
a
number
of
years
and
the
public
has
had
nothing
but
praise
for
its
commendable
efforts
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
should
hope
that
the
notions
of
justice
,
logic
and
human
dignity
will
prevail
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
,
the
60
seconds
have
expired
.
{sent}
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
law
day
{sent}
bar
association
's
activities
{sent}
mrs.
mary
collins
(
capilano
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
today
,
april
17
,
is
an
important
day
for
canadians
.
{sent}
this
fourth
annual
law
day
is
the
biggest
yet
.
{sent}
mock
trials
,
court
room
tours
,
and
media
interviews
give
the
public
a
unique
opportunity
to
find
out
more
about
canadian
law
.
{sent}
while
we
in
this
house
bear
the
onerous
responsibility
of
making
the
law
,
it
is
essential
that
canadians
understand
their
laws
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
pornography
{sent}
decision
by
7-eleven
stores
to
stop
selling
pornographic
magazines
{sent}
mr.
bill
attewell
(
don
valley
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
commend
the
management
of
the
7-eleven
convenience
stores
for
their
decision
to
stop
selling
pornographic
magazines
.
{sent}
hardcore
,
violent
pornography
is
having
a
cancerous
effect
on
morals
and
quality
of
life
in
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
addictive
.
{sent}
erotica
often
leads
to
softcore
pornography
,
which
leads
to
hardcore
,
violent
pornography
.
{sent}
i
urge
the
management
of
other
convenience
stores
,
such
as
mac
's
milk
and
becker
's
,
to
follow
the
courageous
lead
of
7-eleven
.
{sent}
the
family
{sent}
access
to
child
care
services
{sent}
since
the
middle
of
march
,
i
have
attended
the
hearings
of
the
parliamentary
committee
on
daycare
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
call
the
attention
of
the
house
to
the
views
of
various
witnesses
.
{sent}
many
parents
are
asking
that
quality
services
be
available
and
that
they
be
organized
by
the
government
.
{sent}
of
course
,
we
also
hear
about
the
great
number
of
latchkey
children
.
{sent}
the
parents
are
criticized
for
leaving
their
children
without
supervision
,
but
when
we
look
at
the
reason
for
this
,
we
find
that
it
is
because
daycare
services
are
unavailable
or
simply
too
costly
.
{sent}
this
is
certainly
food
for
thought
!
{sent}
organ
banks
{sent}
appeal
for
bequest
of
organs
following
deaths
{sent}
mr.
gilles
bernier
(
beauce
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
to
express
my
support
for
all
the
men
and
women
who
are
willing
to
donate
their
organs
.
{sent}
we
have
to
applaud
all
these
people
who
are
aware
of
the
need
for
livers
,
kidneys
,
eyes
and
hearts
.
{sent}
we
have
to
encourage
those
who
work
at
promoting
organ
banks
.
{sent}
i
take
this
opportunity
to
invite
all
canadian
men
and
women
to
contribute
generously
by
donating
their
organs
when
they
die
.
{sent}
thousands
of
people
wait
for
an
organ
to
give
them
some
hope
to
improve
or
prolong
their
life
.
{sent}
this
is
the
most
precious
posthumous
gift
that
a
human
being
can
give
to
someone
who
is
still
living
.
{sent}
the
scientific
obstacles
have
long
disappeared
,
we
now
have
the
necessary
knowledge
in
canada
and
the
hospitals
have
the
required
facilities
.
{sent}
this
is
a
priceless
contribution
.
{sent}
trust
companies
{sent}
non
payment
of
income
tax
{sent}
in
1985
their
profits
collectively
went
up
by
a
whopping
44
per
cent
over
1984
,
yet
their
taxes
paid
actually
fell
by
4
per
cent
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
reduction
in
bank
of
canada
rate
{sent}
over
the
past
few
months
,
thanks
to
our
budgetary
and
economic
initiatives
,
interest
rates
have
gone
down
by
more
than
3.5
per
cent
.
{sent}
on
a
$
50,000
mortgage
,
this
represents
a
saving
of
$
1,750
per
year
,
or
$
34
per
week
.
{sent}
we
have
managed
to
help
the
economy
recover
without
increasing
inflation
.
{sent}
with
our
government
,
canadians'
savings
maintain
their
purchasing
power
,
which
was
not
the
case
under
the
liberals
inflationary
policies
.
{sent}
equality
rights
{sent}
government
actions
on
behalf
of
women
{sent}
canadian
women
fought
vigorously
for
the
inclusion
of
equality
rights
in
our
constitution
,
yet
women
know
that
equality
embraces
much
more
than
legal
declarations
.
{sent}
these
measures
and
others
are
evidence
of
the
government
's
commitment
to
equality
for
canadian
women
.
{sent}
s.o.
21
{sent}
oral
question
period
{sent}
external
affairs
{sent}
wish
of
hundreds
of
canadians
to
leave
libya
--
measures
government
intends
to
take
{sent}
hon.
donald
j.
johnston
(
saint-henri
--
westmount
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
according
to
michel
tessier
,
our
vice-consul
in
tripoli
,
there
are
now
hundreds
of
canadians
who
would
like
to
leave
libya
.
{sent}
what
measures
does
the
canadian
government
intend
to
take
to
provide
for
the
immediate
departure
of
these
canadians
?
{sent}
hon.
erik
nielsen
(
deputy
prime
minister
and
minister
of
national
defence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
are
in
constant
touch
with
our
consular
officials
in
libya
.
{sent}
therefore
my
responses
yesterday
,
which
no
doubt
the
hon.
member
has
seen
,
have
not
altered
.
{sent}
proceedings
at
oecd
meeting
{sent}
hon.
donald
j.
johnston
(
saint-henri
--
westmount
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
is
an
issue
involving
the
safety
of
canadians
which
must
be
followed
up
,
and
it
will
be
.
{sent}
hon.
erik
nielsen
(
deputy
prime
minister
and
minister
of
national
defence
)
:
that
matter
has
been
discussed
and
the
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
is
at
those
meetings
.
{sent}
imposition
of
economic
sanctions
{sent}
hon.
donald
j.
johnston
(
saint-henri
--
westmount
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
not
sure
what
that
is
supposed
to
tell
us
.
{sent}
we
have
the
prime
minister
in
the
house
so
let
me
try
him
again
.
{sent}
on
january
10
we
began
building
a
strong
set
of
economic
sanctions
against
libya
because
we
took
the
view
that
terrorism
was
an
unacceptable
evil
and
had
to
be
dealt
with
.
{sent}
we
believed
at
that
time
that
supporting
the
u.s.
in
a
series
of
economic
sanctions
would
be
the
best
way
to
proceed
.
{sent}
it
turned
out
that
that
did
not
find
favour
with
a
number
of
allies
.
{sent}
however
,
canada
persisted
in
that
view
and
supported
the
notion
that
this
was
an
excellent
first
step
to
be
taken
along
the
diplomatic
and
economic
route
.
{sent}
that
step
having
failed
,
other
steps
were
taken
by
the
u.s.
those
have
been
discussed
by
myself
and
the
deputy
prime
minister
.
{sent}
safety
of
canadian
citizens
in
libya
{sent}
hon.
william
rompkey
(
grand
falls
--
white
bay
--
labrador
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
follow
up
with
the
prime
minister
on
the
topic
of
the
safety
of
canadians
in
libya
.
{sent}
our
consular
representative
has
said
that
he
has
been
inundated
with
phone
calls
from
canadians
concerned
about
the
critical
situation
,
yet
he
knows
of
no
plans
to
evacuate
them
.
{sent}
we
understand
there
are
three
hercules
aircraft
in
lahr
,
germany
,
which
could
be
used
to
evacuate
canadians
from
libya
.
{sent}
that
is
simply
not
true
.
{sent}
the
government
has
been
in
touch
with
our
officials
as
recently
as
the
last
couple
of
hours
and
we
have
the
direct
assurance
that
there
is
no
immediate
threat
to
canadians
.
{sent}
with
respect
to
contingency
plans
,
as
i
said
yesterday
and
have
been
saying
throughout
,
it
is
not
helpful
to
the
discussion
and
would
jeopardize
the
very
plans
themselves
to
discuss
them
openly
in
public
.
{sent}
the
hon.
gentleman
,
having
been
a
member
of
a
previous
government
,
should
know
that
.
{sent}
evacuation
measures
{sent}
hon.
william
rompkey
(
grand
falls
--
white
bay
--
labrador
)
:
that
may
be
true
,
mr.
speaker
,
but
we
can
only
go
on
the
basis
of
information
we
have
.
{sent}
the
information
we
have
from
the
globe
and
mail
this
morning
says
that
canadians
--
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
rompkey
:
you
have
to
get
your
information
from
somewhere
if
you
cannot
get
it
from
the
government
.
{sent}
our
consul
says
they
are
becoming
increasingly
worried
,
and
about
a
quarter
of
them
want
to
get
out
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
this
is
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
does
the
hon.
member
have
a
question
,
please
?
{sent}
mr.
rompkey
:
if
those
hercules
are
not
going
to
be
used
in
view
of
the
situation
,
what
are
the
government
's
plans
?
{sent}
can
the
government
tell
us
what
plans
it
has
to
evacuate
canadians
in
this
serious
situation
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
consular
officials
are
not
advising
the
government
in
any
way
along
the
lines
suggested
by
my
hon.
friend
.
{sent}
second
,
the
airport
is
now
either
open
or
in
the
process
of
being
opened
for
commercial
travel
.
{sent}
mr.
johnston
:
they
will
go
by
wardair
,
i
suppose
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
the
hon.
gentleman
from
westmount
on
a
serious
matter
talks
about
wardair
.
{sent}
i
can
tell
him
that
we
do
not
do
this
frivolously
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
you
didn't
show
up
for
two
days
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
i
can
tell
him
that
we
have
contingency
plans
which
involve
the
government
of
canada
--
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
tell
us
about
it
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
--
to
protect
the
security
of
canadians
,
as
opposed
to
these
frivolous
acts
by
the
opposition
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
exit
visas
inquiry
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
also
directed
to
the
prime
minister
and
it
is
on
the
same
general
topic
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
deputy
prime
minister
indeed
made
reference
to
a
communication
we
had
received
from
a
senior
official
of
the
government
of
libya
.
{sent}
it
is
exactly
as
my
hon.
friend
has
reported
it
to
be
.
{sent}
however
,
we
have
no
information
that
would
cause
us
the
kind
of
concern
to
which
he
refers
.
{sent}
in
fact
the
level
of
anxiety
and
concern
among
canadian
residents
presently
in
libya
has
declined
substantially
.
{sent}
case
of
canadian
family
{sent}
they
want
to
leave
libya
but
they
cannot
obtain
either
an
exit
visa
or
a
means
of
leaving
the
country
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
i
will
be
happy
to
do
that
,
mr.
speaker
,
and
advise
the
hon.
member
just
as
quickly
as
i
can
.
{sent}
government
position
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
have
consular
officials
who
are
discussing
this
sur
place
with
the
canadian
nationals
.
{sent}
equality
rights
{sent}
court
challenges
program
--
composition
of
approval
panel
membership
{sent}
mr.
roland
de
corneille
(
eglinton
--
lawrence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
hon.
secretary
of
state
.
{sent}
today
is
equality
day
and
seven
months
have
passed
since
the
court
challenges
program
came
into
effect
to
enforce
section
15
of
the
charter
.
{sent}
can
the
minister
explain
why
it
is
,
still
to
this
day
,
the
names
of
the
equality
panel
submitted
to
the
minister
by
the
canadian
council
on
social
development
have
not
been
approved
?
{sent}
there
are
25
to
30
equality
cases
waiting
in
the
hands
of
that
council
pending
action
by
the
minister
,
and
still
not
a
dollar
in
the
equality
area
has
been
put
into
the
hands
of
those
waiting
for
justice
.
{sent}
about
twenty
cases
are
being
examined
at
this
time
.
{sent}
the
sub-committee
was
formed
some
time
ago
,
and
it
is
operational
.
{sent}
i
think
that
the
fact
we
are
taking
the
time
to
do
so
guarantees
the
high
standard
of
the
decisions
that
will
be
made
.
{sent}
provisions
of
proposed
legislation
{sent}
mr.
roland
de
corneille
(
eglinton
--
lawrence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
obvious
that
nothing
has
been
done
on
the
equality
panel
.
{sent}
that
is
the
short
answer
to
the
question
.
{sent}
hon.
benoît
bouchard
(
secretary
of
state
of
canada
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
i
did
answer
the
previous
question
.
{sent}
we
are
establishing
procedures
in
areas
where
human
rights
are
concerned
,
where
every
necessary
precaution
must
be
taken
.
{sent}
once
again
,
we
believe
that
the
procedures
we
have
today
are
the
right
ones
.
{sent}
we
are
working
on
very
basic
and
fundamental
matters
,
where
our
initial
decisions
will
affect
all
subsequent
decisions
.
{sent}
i
don't
think
we
can
be
accused
of
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
vancouver
east
(
ms.
mitchell
)
.
{sent}
child
care
{sent}
provision
of
services
{sent}
ms.
margaret
mitchell
(
vancouver
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
.
{sent}
today
we
celebrate
the
anniversary
of
the
charter
of
rights
.
{sent}
request
for
federal
funding
{sent}
ms.
margaret
mitchell
(
vancouver
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
the
minister
will
recall
that
the
prime
minister
also
promised
funding
.
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
sits
on
that
very
task
force
.
{sent}
she
knows
that
there
have
to
be
additions
,
changes
,
and
improvements
to
day
care
.
{sent}
we
all
recognize
that
.
{sent}
week
after
week
the
task
force
has
been
asking
for
people
's
views
.
{sent}
for
her
to
say
now
that
she
already
has
a
solution
,
regardless
of
the
fact
that
the
work
has
not
been
done
,
is
unfair
to
those
people
appearing
before
the
task
force
.
{sent}
external
affairs
{sent}
united
states-libya
confrontation
--
prime
minister
's
knowledge
{sent}
hon.
warren
allmand
(
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
will
the
prime
minister
tell
the
house
specifically
when
and
from
whom
he
first
learned
of
the
american
plans
to
attack
libya
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
have
indicated
that
we
were
kept
informed
of
developments
,
as
an
ally
ought
to
be
kept
informed
.
{sent}
we
put
forward
views
,
particularly
dealing
with
the
safety
and
security
of
canadian
nationals
in
libya
,
all
of
whom
are
still
there
.
{sent}
it
would
be
singularly
unhelpful
to
them
to
reveal
any
details
in
regard
to
that
.
{sent}
timing
of
receipt
of
information
{sent}
hon.
warren
allmand
(
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
asked
the
prime
minister
two
questions
.
{sent}
i
asked
him
when
he
was
informed
,
and
he
did
not
answer
that
question
.
{sent}
i
asked
him
by
whom
he
was
informed
,
and
he
did
not
answer
that
question
.
{sent}
because
i
do
not
think
that
these
are
the
type
of
questions
he
can
avoid
answering
i
will
ask
them
again
.
{sent}
considering
his
good
relationship
with
the
president
of
the
united
states
,
will
he
tell
us
on
what
date
,
at
what
time
,
and
by
whom
he
was
first
informed
?
{sent}
specifically
,
what
kind
of
advice
did
he
give
to
the
individual
who
told
him
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
is
not
going
fishing
but
is
going
to
new
heights
of
irresponsibility
.
{sent}
he
asked
two
questions
and
i
have
no
intention
of
answering
either
because
they
could
affect
the
security
and
safety
of
canadians
in
libya
.
{sent}
that
is
an
irresponsible
suggestion
the
hon.
member
made
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
equality
rights
{sent}
membership
of
court
challenges
panel
{sent}
i
would
ask
the
minister
of
justice
why
it
is
that
the
government
has
refused
so
far
to
approve
this
important
list
with
the
result
that
very
many
important
court
challenges
remain
unfunded
.
{sent}
is
the
minister
in
fact
attempting
to
exert
a
degree
of
political
interference
in
what
should
be
an
arm
's
length
process
?
{sent}
we
are
dealing
with
public
funds
and
we
have
to
be
satisfied
that
the
members
of
the
board
that
is
to
be
set
up
are
perfectly
satisfactory
from
all
points
of
view
.
{sent}
principle
of
reasonable
accommodation
{sent}
women
{sent}
lack
of
child
care
centres
--
equality
in
labour
force
--
government
position
{sent}
mrs.
lucie
pépin
(
outremont
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
.
{sent}
in
her
report
on
employment
equality
,
judge
rosalie
abella
stated
that
the
lack
of
daycare
services
is
a
major
obstacle
to
employment
equality
for
women
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
know
whether
the
government
is
prepared
to
support
this
view
and
acknowledge
that
the
lack
of
daycare
facilities
is
indeed
a
major
obstacle
to
the
equality
of
women
on
the
labour
market
?
{sent}
the
hon.
member
knows
,
as
she
is
a
member
of
the
task
force
,
that
those
very
points
are
being
made
by
the
task
force
according
to
reports
i
have
received
.
{sent}
it
is
for
that
reason
that
i
look
forward
to
its
recommendations
.
{sent}
we
are
looking
at
how
best
to
do
it
.
{sent}
there
have
been
other
reports
,
like
the
cooke
report
,
about
which
there
have
been
very
serious
questions
concerning
the
figures
,
from
some
quarters
.
{sent}
we
are
looking
at
how
we
can
best
deliver
the
service
,
keeping
in
mind
the
jurisdictional
question
as
well
,
with
the
moneys
available
,
and
i
think
that
that
is
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
child
care
services
--
government
position
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
not
pre-empt
the
position
of
the
recommendations
that
will
be
coming
from
the
task
force
.
{sent}
federal
provincial
affairs
{sent}
quebec
--
transfer
payments
--
government
position
{sent}
mr.
mike
cassidy
(
ottawa-centre
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
absence
of
the
minister
of
finance
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
the
premier
of
quebec
has
just
announced
that
quebec
will
be
receiving
$
66
million
less
in
equalization
payments
for
the
1985-86
financial
year
than
had
been
expected
.
{sent}
the
federal
government
has
therefore
failed
to
meet
its
commitment
that
it
would
maintain
equalization
payments
at
a
minimum
of
95
per
cent
of
the
amount
quebec
received
the
year
before
.
{sent}
how
does
the
federal
government
intend
to
compensate
quebec
for
this
loss
of
$
66
million
in
equalization
payments
?
{sent}
last
year
,
we
acted
fairly
and
honourably
towards
quebec
,
and
as
far
as
i
know
,
we
have
met
and
respected
all
our
commitments
to
quebec
.
{sent}
commitment
to
quebec
{sent}
mr.
mike
cassidy
(
ottawa-centre
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
supplementary
.
{sent}
why
did
the
federal
government
forget
its
promise
to
meet
this
commitment
to
quebec
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
what
the
hon.
member
is
saying
is
utter
nonsense
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
that
last
year
,
we
unilaterally
paid
over
$
100
million
to
quebec
,
which
amount
had
been
cancelled
by
the
previous
liberal
government
.
{sent}
it
was
our
government
that
gave
more
than
$
100
million
to
quebec
,
manitoba
and
nova
scotia
,
and
so
forth
.
{sent}
this
government
has
rebuilt
federal-provincial
relations
on
a
far
more
constructive
and
reasonable
basis
.
{sent}
canadian
broadcasting
corporation
{sent}
head
office
control
over
news
stories
{sent}
mr.
john
a.
macdougall
(
timiskaming
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
communications
.
{sent}
last
week
in
the
house
i
questioned
the
parliamentary
secretary
on
the
spending
practices
of
cbc
radio
in
northern
ontario
,
something
which
i
thought
was
newsworthy
.
{sent}
i
have
learned
that
a
cbc
regional
supervisor
in
ontario
ordered
regional
stations
not
to
run
the
story
unless
they
first
contacted
the
head
office
in
toronto
.
{sent}
would
the
minister
please
ask
the
president
of
the
cbc
if
every
story
has
to
be
run
through
the
head
office
,
or
just
those
that
criticize
the
cbc
.
{sent}
hon.
marcel
masse
(
minister
of
communications
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
can
confirm
the
existence
of
this
cbc
memo
,
directive
or
guideline
.
{sent}
i
was
told
about
it
this
morning
and
i
will
wait
until
the
president
of
the
cbc
comes
back
from
china
where
he
is
now
and
ask
for
his
advice
,
suggestions
or
ideas
concerning
this
matter
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
canadian
exports
{sent}
mr.
dave
dingwall
(
cape
breton
--
east
richmond
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
right
hon.
prime
minister
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
is
the
kind
of
silly
question
one
is
loath
to
dignify
with
an
answer
.
{sent}
i
simply
will
not
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
canadian
government
's
position
{sent}
mr.
dave
dingwall
(
cape
breton
--
east
richmond
)
:
perhaps
a
silly
question
,
mr.
speaker
,
but
a
silly
prime
minister
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
just
a
short
question
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
dingwall
:
surely
the
prime
minister
and
his
government
have
been
canvassing
u.s.
senators
and
congressmen
in
the
administration
with
regard
to
the
preconditions
they
may
be
seeking
.
{sent}
will
the
prime
minister
explain
to
the
house
exactly
what
the
preconditions
are
that
are
being
sought
by
the
american
administration
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
already
indicated
the
position
of
the
government
of
canada
is
that
we
shall
not
accept
any
such
preconditions
.
{sent}
i
think
i
have
made
that
very
clear
.
{sent}
moreover
--
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
it
is
so
bad
on
the
liberal
side
today
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
we
may
have
to
ask
for
the
return
of
the
leader
of
the
opposition
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
why
is
he
always
absent
when
we
are
discussing
important
matters
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
farm
credit
corporation
{sent}
moratorium
on
farm
foreclosures
{sent}
mr.
vic
althouse
(
humboldt
--
lake
centre
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
agriculture
.
{sent}
in
a
news
release
on
february
27
the
minister
stated
that
:
{sent}
the
moratorium
on
fcc
foreclosures
will
be
lifted
only
when
the
commodity
based
loans
and
rural
transition
programs
are
up
and
running
.
{sent}
with
no
programs
yet
in
place
,
will
the
minister
state
more
precisely
the
conditions
under
which
he
will
now
lift
the
moratorium
?
{sent}
will
it
now
be
after
harvest
?
{sent}
is
the
minister
going
to
lift
it
now
,
or
is
he
waiting
for
farmers
to
seed
the
crops
so
that
the
fcc
can
reap
them
?
{sent}
proposed
commodity
based
mortgage
program
{sent}
they
can't
assess
whether
a
farmer
is
even
eligible
.
{sent}
they
have
to
know
their
seeding
time
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
this
is
long
.
{sent}
hon.
john
wise
(
minister
of
agriculture
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
do
not
detect
in
the
country
or
in
my
day-to-day
communications
with
farm
organizations
any
confusion
at
all
.
{sent}
mr.
althouse
:
if
they
announce
it
in
june
,
what
happens
?
{sent}
environmental
affairs
{sent}
niagara
river
pollution
--
canada-united
states
negotiations
{sent}
mr.
rob
nicholson
(
niagara
falls
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
minister
of
the
environment
.
{sent}
the
niagara
river
is
the
source
of
drinking
water
for
millions
of
canadians
and
its
pollution
is
everyone
's
concern
.
{sent}
what
progress
has
been
made
in
negotiating
a
comprehensive
clean-up
package
with
the
americans
,
and
how
soon
can
we
expect
that
package
?
{sent}
mr.
g.
m.
gurbin
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
the
environment
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
government
appreciates
the
member
's
ongoing
concern
for
the
quality
of
water
in
the
niagara
river
.
{sent}
the
clean-up
plan
requires
the
co-operation
of
the
governments
of
canada
,
the
united
states
,
new
york
state
and
the
province
of
ontario
.
{sent}
we
have
been
engaged
in
long
and
difficult
negotiations
since
october
,
1985
.
{sent}
while
they
have
been
long
and
difficult
,
progress
has
been
made
.
{sent}
we
hope
to
be
able
to
report
a
conclusion
agreeable
to
all
parties
within
the
next
several
weeks
.
{sent}
unemployment
insurance
{sent}
date
of
decision
to
apply
regulation
with
regard
to
early
retirees
{sent}
mr.
alfonso
gagliano
(
saint-léonard
--
anjou
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
wish
to
direct
a
question
to
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
.
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
question
has
been
raised
,
as
you
know
,
a
number
of
times
in
the
house
by
different
members
.
{sent}
i
will
tell
the
hon.
member
,
as
i
have
told
others
on
numerous
occasions
,
that
this
is
a
regulation
which
was
introduced
at
the
time
of
the
economic
statement
in
november
,
1984
.
{sent}
it
was
given
a
year
's
lead
time
before
implementation
.
{sent}
it
came
into
effect
in
january
of
this
year
.
{sent}
the
whole
measure
has
also
been
referred
to
the
forget
commission
for
consideration
,
and
i
am
awaiting
the
results
of
the
commission
's
review
.
{sent}
inquiry
how
minister
can
pretend
to
have
informed
beneficiaries
in
advance
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
members
of
the
house
will
know
that
this
issue
has
been
raised
time
and
again
.
{sent}
what
was
taking
place
was
conveyed
to
members
of
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
letters
were
sent
to
all
major
employers
across
the
country
by
the
unemployment
insurance
commission
.
{sent}
people
have
been
notified
in
company
after
company
.
{sent}
members
have
been
notified
.
{sent}
i
will
continue
to
ensure
that
members
are
notified
as
they
ask
additional
questions
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
action
of
u.s.
senators
{sent}
will
the
prime
minister
himself
personally
tell
president
reagan
that
that
kind
of
blackmail
from
the
u.s.
senate
is
simply
unacceptable
to
the
canadian
people
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
word
ambush
suggests
some
great
untoward
set
of
circumstances
.
{sent}
i
point
out
to
my
hon.
friend
with
regard
to
that
,
that
in
an
interview
on
global
television
on
august
29
last
i
said
:
{sent}
--
my
concern
is
that
if
we
shilly-shally
unduly
that
by
the
time
we
get
there
the
americans
may
say
,
well
lookit
we
're
not
interested
--
{sent}
in
my
statement
in
the
house
of
commons
on
september
26
i
said
:
{sent}
success
is
not
a
sure
thing
--
{sent}
now
you
find
out
,
because
you
have
been
ambushed
,
that
that
is
not
the
case
all
along
,
that
it
will
be
difficult
because
this
kind
of
a
deal
will
be
a
good
deal
for
canada
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
prime
minister
's
position
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
we
could
take
the
prime
minister
back
to
his
words
before
he
was
elected
,
at
which
point
he
opposed
free
trade
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
he
has
led
us
down
a
blind
path
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
know
that
decency
is
a
rare
commodity
when
my
hon.
friend
gets
cornered
as
he
is
,
up
against
the
detroit
river
.
{sent}
there
is
in
canada
as
in
the
united
states
some
skepticism
as
to
whether
any
such
agreement
could
get
by
a
congress
which
seems
to
be
growing
more
and
more
protectionist
.
{sent}
mr.
fulton
:
they
don't
even
know
your
name
down
there
,
muldoon
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
--
could
result
in
new
jobs
,
new
wealth
,
and
new
prosperity
for
canada
.
{sent}
that
is
what
we
offered
,
as
opposed
to
the
old
status
quo
--
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
play
it
again
,
muldoon
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
--
which
comes
from
the
"
apostles
of
reaction
"
approach
by
the
ndp
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
meat
inspection
--
newspaper
report
{sent}
can
he
further
confirm
the
report
that
tonnes
of
unfit
pork
and
chicken
were
improperly
approved
for
market
?
{sent}
hon.
john
wise
(
minister
of
agriculture
)
:
no
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
cannot
confirm
that
at
the
moment
.
{sent}
that
information
was
brought
to
my
attention
early
this
morning
.
{sent}
quite
appropriately
and
properly
,
under
the
terms
of
the
meat
inspection
act
,
which
does
not
extend
ministerial
authority
to
me
,
i
made
inquiry
of
the
appropriate
senior
officials
.
{sent}
the
member
may
take
some
satisfaction
,
as
i
did
,
from
the
fact
that
an
investigation
had
already
commenced
before
i
called
.
{sent}
request
for
committee
investigation
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
first
it
was
tainted
tuna
,
then
it
was
tb
buffalo
,
and
now
it
is
contaminated
chicken
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
hon.
john
wise
(
minister
of
agriculture
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
can
certainly
confirm
that
this
is
not
a
matter
of
contamination
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
why
the
member
is
so
nervous
,
because
i
have
every
confidence
in
the
meat
inspection
system
of
the
country
.
{sent}
regional
industrial
expansion
{sent}
northern
new
brunswick
--
request
for
concentrated
approach
{sent}
mr.
albert
girard
(
restigouche
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
regional
industrial
expansion
.
{sent}
i
am
also
aware
of
the
great
success
the
minister
has
been
having
in
cape
breton
.
{sent}
will
the
minister
now
instruct
his
department
to
make
the
same
kind
of
concentrated
effort
to
help
restigouche
overcome
its
high
unemployment
?
{sent}
industry
{sent}
algoma
steel
--
announcement
of
lay-offs
{sent}
mr.
john
r.
rodriguez
(
nickel
belt
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
and
is
with
regard
to
the
announcement
last
evening
by
algoma
steel
of
the
lay-off
of
approximately
1,500
workers
.
{sent}
will
the
prime
minister
cause
an
investigation
to
be
held
,
with
public
hearings
,
in
order
that
algoma
steel
can
come
before
a
committee
and
justify
the
lay-off
of
1,500
workers
?
{sent}
hon.
sinclair
stevens
(
minister
of
regional
industrial
expansion
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
algoma
steel
has
been
in
touch
with
my
department
.
{sent}
it
has
indicated
the
circumstances
which
now
exist
,
which
,
unfortunately
,
are
leading
to
the
lay-offs
to
which
the
hon.
member
has
referred
.
{sent}
i
assure
the
hon.
member
that
the
matter
is
in
hand
as
far
as
the
government
of
canada
is
concerned
.
{sent}
tax
incentive
granted
company
{sent}
mr.
john
r.
rodriguez
(
nickel
belt
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
supplementary
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
.
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
involves
two
areas
of
considerable
attention
for
us
.
{sent}
one
is
the
tax
fairness
which
we
brought
to
the
corporation
tax
system
.
{sent}
the
other
is
employment
opportunities
throughout
canada
,
and
particularly
in
areas
like
northern
ontario
.
{sent}
we
have
always
worked
with
companies
--
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
that
's
not
an
answer
to
the
question
.
{sent}
mrs.
mcdougall
:
--
including
companies
like
algoma
,
to
try
to
provide
them
with
investment
opportunities
which
create
jobs
.
{sent}
canada
post
corporation
{sent}
distribution
of
pornographic
material
{sent}
ms.
sheila
copps
(
hamilton
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
hon.
michel
côté
(
minister
of
consumer
and
corporate
affairs
and
canada
post
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
are
aware
of
the
situation
,
of
course
.
{sent}
we
have
already
begun
an
examination
and
we
will
have
comments
to
make
about
this
later
on
.
{sent}
role
of
minister
of
justice
{sent}
ms.
sheila
copps
(
hamilton
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
minister
responsible
says
that
an
examination
has
begun
.
{sent}
i
was
told
by
canada
post
this
morning
that
the
material
is
all
right
because
it
is
not
pornography
,
but
only
an
ad
for
pornography
.
{sent}
hon.
john
c.
crosbie
(
minister
of
justice
and
attorney
general
of
canada
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
minister
responsible
for
the
status
of
women
has
already
brought
this
complaint
to
my
attention
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
why
has
nothing
been
done
?
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
i
do
not
know
how
the
hon.
member
got
on
this
list
as
well
.
{sent}
we
are
checking
this
with
canada
post
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
mr.
speaker
,
we
will
be
introducing
suggested
legislation
to
deal
with
the
problem
of
pornography
in
general
in
the
next
few
weeks
.
{sent}
energy
{sent}
effect
of
falling
oil
prices
on
small
companies
{sent}
mr.
ian
waddell
(
vancouver
--
kingsway
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
energy
.
{sent}
would
she
agree
with
me
that
canada
is
experiencing
a
real
crisis
in
the
decline
of
the
alberta
economy
due
to
the
collapsing
world
prices
?
{sent}
on
behalf
of
my
party
i
want
to
offer
the
minister
our
co-operation
if
she
is
prepared
to
bring
forth
legislation
to
help
small
canadian
oil
companies
.
{sent}
is
she
prepared
to
consider
helping
small
canadian
oil
companies
in
alberta
in
order
to
do
something
to
help
that
economy
?
{sent}
hon.
pat
carney
(
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
already
assured
the
hon.
member
that
our
consultations
in
this
area
are
going
well
.
{sent}
we
are
looking
at
all
options
which
will
provide
some
relief
to
an
area
of
the
country
which
is
being
badly
devastated
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
i
hope
she
will
treat
the
matter
with
some
urgency
.
{sent}
financial
post
article
{sent}
mr.
ian
waddell
(
vancouver
--
kingsway
)
:
does
the
minister
agree
with
the
respected
energy
writer
,
david
hatter
,
who
has
written
the
following
in
this
week
's
the
financial
post
:
{sent}
is
the
minister
aware
of
that
problem
?
{sent}
is
she
prepared
to
protect
small
canadian
oil
companies
from
being
gobbled
up
by
the
big
american
companies
?
{sent}
official
languages
{sent}
linguistic
programs
--
government
position
{sent}
mr.
jean-robert
gauthier
(
ottawa
--
vanier
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
wish
to
direct
a
question
to
the
secretary
of
state
.
{sent}
speaking
on
behalf
of
the
government
last
october
19
,
the
secretary
of
state
said
something
about
strong
leadership
and
promised
to
maintain
and
reinforce
the
government
's
linguistic
programs
.
{sent}
which
of
these
positions
is
the
government
's
position
?
{sent}
that
of
the
person
responsible
for
the
linguistic
policy
,
or
that
of
a
reluctant
conservative
government
?
{sent}
i
think
there
are
very
basic
considerations
in
this
issue
.
{sent}
the
federal
system
itself
is
very
complex
.
{sent}
business
of
the
house
{sent}
business
of
the
house
{sent}
weekly
statement
{sent}
hon.
ray
hnatyshyn
(
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
afternoon
we
will
consider
the
second
reading
stage
of
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
tomorrow
,
we
will
start
consideration
of
the
report
stage
of
bill
c-87
,
an
act
to
authorize
the
divestiture
of
canadian
aresenals
limited
.
{sent}
subsequently
,
we
will
continue
consideration
of
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
monday
,
we
will
start
the
third
reading
of
bill
c-62
,
an
act
respecting
employment
equity
.
{sent}
once
that
has
been
completed
,
we
will
get
back
to
bil
c-45
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
monitor
the
situation
very
closely
and
make
additional
announcements
if
necessary
.
{sent}
in
any
event
it
would
be
a
direction
to
the
table
.
{sent}
the
clerk
would
receive
and
accept
that
petition
by
direct
delivery
,
or
with
an
accompanying
letter
.
{sent}
there
would
be
no
requirement
for
a
response
because
of
the
fact
it
does
not
comply
with
the
new
standing
orders
.
{sent}
it
would
not
be
delivered
or
presented
in
the
house
,
but
it
would
be
done
directly
with
the
clerk
of
the
house
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
the
chair
requires
that
there
be
a
motion
to
that
effect
.
{sent}
may
i
just
be
clear
that
the
house
wishes
the
table
to
have
the
petitions
that
were
in
the
correct
form
before
and
shall
be
regarded
as
though
they
were
in
the
correct
form
?
{sent}
we
will
look
at
what
the
hon.
president
of
the
privy
council
(
mr.
hnatyshyn
)
has
said
.
{sent}
we
may
have
to
come
back
and
ask
for
a
house
order
.
{sent}
if
so
,
i
take
it
there
is
a
willingness
to
do
so
.
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
question
for
the
president
of
the
privy
council
.
{sent}
we
understand
that
later
on
this
afternoon
,
at
4.30
,
to
be
precise
,
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
(
mrs.
mcdougall
)
will
be
making
a
statement
in
the
house
under
tabling
of
documents
.
{sent}
is
it
the
understanding
at
that
time
then
that
members
of
the
opposition
would
have
an
equal
opportunity
to
respond
to
her
statement
?
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
the
hon.
member
did
anticipate
the
next
point
that
i
was
going
to
raise
.
{sent}
this
being
equality
day
,
we
would
not
want
to
breach
that
principle
and
not
allow
the
opposition
the
opportunity
of
responding
to
what
i
know
will
be
an
excellent
statement
.
{sent}
i
have
a
draft
order
which
has
been
the
subject
of
discussion
and
i
have
presented
this
order
to
the
opposition
parties
.
{sent}
i
think
you
would
find
a
disposition
to
have
this
order
received
with
unanimous
consent
and
passed
without
debate
.
{sent}
the
order
is
as
follows
:
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
proposal
is
that
all
the
normal
proceedings
would
simply
take
place
at
the
conclusion
of
the
additional
time
added
on
.
{sent}
it
will
not
be
a
long
statement
,
but
we
will
continue
with
the
adjournment
motions
immediately
following
the
extended
time
period
today
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
can
we
procedurally
deal
with
the
question
?
{sent}
does
the
president
of
the
privy
council
(
mr.
hnatyshyn
)
have
the
unanimous
consent
necessary
to
introduce
the
motion
?
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
the
house
leader
for
the
official
opposition
is
asking
a
legitimate
question
.
{sent}
mr.
riis
:
i
was
attempting
to
simply
answer
the
question
that
was
raised
by
the
hon.
house
leader
for
the
official
opposition
(
mr.
gray
)
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
does
the
president
of
the
privy
council
have
the
unanimous
consent
necessary
for
the
introduction
of
his
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
house
has
heard
the
terms
of
the
motion
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
agreed
and
so
ordered
.
{sent}
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relatins
act
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relations
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
resuming
debate
with
six
minutes
remaining
.
{sent}
mr.
mike
cassidy
(
ottawa
centre
)
:
when
i
was
so
rudely
interrupted
it
was
november
4
,
1985
,
and
it
has
therefore
been
some
164
days
since
this
bill
was
last
debated
.
{sent}
he
indicated
,
in
other
words
,
that
we
would
be
saving
time
by
this
particular
measure
.
{sent}
prior
to
your
leaving
the
chair
perhaps
i
can
just
catch
your
attention
for
a
minute
.
{sent}
i
am
sorry
to
say
that
to
my
friend
,
the
speaker
.
{sent}
i
want
to
say
to
you
,
sir
,
now
that
you
have
replaced
the
speaker
,
that
i
am
very
disturbed
about
this
.
{sent}
the
house
of
commons
should
not
be
putting
itself
in
this
position
.
{sent}
there
happens
to
be
a
dispute
between
the
parties
and
delay
by
the
government
,
because
apparently
it
does
not
want
canada
labour
code
coverage
of
house
of
commons'
employees
.
{sent}
that
is
a
partisan
position
.
{sent}
since
the
canada
labour
board
recognized
our
employees
some
six
or
seven
months
ago
,
it
is
wrong
for
there
not
to
have
been
meaningful
negotiations
.
{sent}
the
mediator
has
made
an
attempt
to
get
things
going
but
nothing
has
happened
.
{sent}
the
employees
continue
to
be
frustrated
.
{sent}
-
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relations
act
{sent}
the
application
before
the
canada
labour
board
was
november
,
1983
,
some
two
and
a
half
years
ago
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
what
is
going
to
happen
now
.
{sent}
the
argument
that
the
canada
labour
board
should
delay
because
the
government
was
treating
the
matter
as
one
of
urgency
is
patently
untrue
.
{sent}
if
the
government
wanted
to
treat
this
as
a
matter
of
urgency
it
would
have
brought
bill
c-45
back
on
november
6
or
november
10
,
certainly
well
before
christmas
.
{sent}
it
would
have
gone
to
committee
,
come
back
for
third
reading
and
been
disposed
of
.
{sent}
whether
or
not
members
of
my
party
agreed
with
bill
c-45
as
it
was
then
,
at
least
there
would
be
a
measure
in
being
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
there
is
a
measure
in
being
.
{sent}
just
like
employees
of
the
privy
council
,
the
governor
general
and
a
number
of
other
federal
government
agencies
,
house
of
commons
employees
are
a
recognized
bargaining
unit
.
{sent}
they
are
certified
as
a
union
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
therefore
this
house
,
which
should
be
acting
as
a
model
for
labour
relations
,
is
working
in
exactly
the
contrary
direction
.
{sent}
the
motion
before
us
right
now
requests
a
delay
in
passage
of
this
bill
for
a
period
of
time
.
{sent}
it
was
proposed
by
the
hon.
member
for
hamilton
east
(
ms.
copps
)
,
and
i
continue
to
support
it
in
the
hope
that
at
last
the
house
of
commons
will
enter
into
some
serious
negotiations
with
its
employees
.
{sent}
i
do
not
understand
what
is
going
on
.
{sent}
under
the
canada
labour
code
they
would
have
input
and
be
able
to
negotiate
regarding
those
issues
.
{sent}
under
this
bill
they
will
not
.
{sent}
therefore
,
those
issues
which
have
provoked
employees
to
sign
union
cards
and
keep
at
it
for
such
a
long
time
are
not
being
resolved
with
this
bill
.
{sent}
they
fear
,
with
reason
,
that
this
bill
will
prove
to
be
even
less
effective
than
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
.
{sent}
there
is
no
staff
relations
board
to
which
they
can
appeal
on
matters
in
dispute
with
their
employer
.
{sent}
this
bill
could
also
be
interpreted
as
a
thinly
disguised
attempt
at
union
bashing
.
{sent}
the
certification
process
these
employees
have
gone
through
already
before
the
canada
labour
board
will
have
to
be
repeated
for
the
third
,
fourth
or
fifth
time
.
{sent}
they
will
be
asked
to
sign
union
cards
again
.
{sent}
they
are
not
guaranteed
that
the
staff
relations
board
will
recognize
the
same
bargaining
units
recognized
by
the
canada
labour
board
.
{sent}
there
are
further
opportunities
for
delay
given
to
the
employer
if
it
decides
to
act
as
it
has
been
acting
.
{sent}
as
one
member
of
parliament
to
whom
,
theoretically
,
the
speaker
is
responsible
,
i
would
have
thought
that
we
would
not
be
playing
these
games
.
{sent}
this
is
the
parliament
of
canada
,
a
country
which
,
in
its
labour
relations
statutes
,
acknowledges
the
right
of
working
people
to
form
unions
and
bargain
collectively
.
{sent}
that
is
a
right
for
which
working
people
have
fought
in
every
country
.
{sent}
it
is
traditionally
one
of
the
first
rights
to
be
taken
away
when
dictators
take
away
the
rights
of
working
people
and
attack
democracy
.
{sent}
is
the
house
of
commons
to
be
an
accomplice
in
undermining
the
democratic
rights
of
the
1,200
workers
who
have
won
certification
?
{sent}
that
would
appear
to
be
the
case
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
the
hon.
member
's
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
i
don't
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
or
comments
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
mr.
speaker
,
before
i
put
a
question
to
my
colleague
i
want
to
preface
it
with
a
few
remarks
about
something
that
took
place
about
two
years
ago
,
just
after
the
1984
election
.
{sent}
it
was
revealed
in
archives
tapes
that
there
were
reports
by
a
previous
speaker
of
sexual
harassment
of
staff
on
this
hill
.
{sent}
women
had
to
lay
their
bodies
down
to
get
and
keep
jobs
here
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
any
kind
of
collective
bargaining
process
must
include
mp
's
staff
and
your
honour
's
staff
.
{sent}
i
want
to
ask
my
colleague
why
he
thinks
the
staff
of
members
of
the
house
of
commons
are
not
included
in
this
bill
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
cannot
answer
that
question
.
{sent}
i
suppose
maybe
somewhere
in
the
dark
recesses
of
the
minds
of
certain
members
of
cabinet
we
could
find
an
explanation
for
the
exclusion
of
1,200
people
who
work
for
members
of
different
parties
.
{sent}
as
my
hon.
friend
knows
,
we
have
in
our
caucus
a
staff
association
.
{sent}
it
seeks
to
act
like
a
union
but
it
is
extremely
difficult
because
it
does
not
and
cannot
get
certification
.
{sent}
the
extension
of
bargaining
rights
to
members'
employees
does
not
automatically
mean
there
is
going
to
be
a
strike
in
every
conservative
corridor
.
{sent}
it
is
up
to
the
employees
whether
or
not
they
want
to
exercise
their
rights
,
as
it
is
in
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
however
,
having
access
to
those
rights
,
even
if
you
do
not
use
them
,
is
a
powerful
incentive
for
employers
to
treat
their
employees
decently
.
{sent}
they
know
that
if
they
go
too
far
they
will
provoke
the
employees
into
exercising
their
rights
.
{sent}
there
are
,
again
and
again
,
instances
of
employees
working
side
by
side
,
doing
the
same
job
,
with
salary
differences
amounting
to
thousands
of
dollars
.
{sent}
competitions
are
not
held
for
certain
positions
.
{sent}
those
positions
are
filled
on
a
temporary
basis
.
{sent}
these
irregularities
must
end
,
but
i
am
afraid
that
bill
c-45
does
not
provide
the
assurance
that
those
irregularities
will
end
.
{sent}
if
my
hon.
friend
has
other
questions
i
will
be
happy
to
answer
them
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
has
mentioned
some
examples
of
this
.
{sent}
would
the
hon.
member
tell
us
how
collective
bargaining
rights
might
help
in
promoting
greater
equality
on
the
hill
?
{sent}
but
the
employee
acting
on
his
or
her
own
is
defenceless
,
or
almost
so
,
against
arbitrary
acts
by
the
supervisor
or
manager
for
whom
he
or
she
may
happen
to
work
.
{sent}
that
is
why
people
finally
become
so
frustrated
that
they
decide
they
want
a
union
.
{sent}
employers
wonder
why
they
all
cannot
get
along
together
.
{sent}
i
can
give
an
example
of
sexual
harrassment
which
was
given
to
me
by
the
union
.
{sent}
in
a
support
service
in
the
house
of
commons
a
female
employee
is
the
object
of
sexual
harrassment
.
{sent}
her
manager
touches
her
,
leans
up
behind
her
and
rubs
against
her
.
{sent}
when
she
protests
,
she
is
assigned
to
a
heavier
work-load
,
later
given
a
poor
performance
rating
and
finally
transferred
to
another
position
.
{sent}
if
that
occurs
and
there
is
an
effective
union
,
at
least
that
woman
has
means
of
fighting
back
against
that
kind
of
mistreatment
by
her
supervisor
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
want
effective
collective
bargaining
rights
for
the
workforce
in
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
want
the
labour
board
certification
proceeded
with
.
{sent}
we
certainly
do
not
want
a
toothless
bill
such
as
represented
by
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
mr.
heap
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
ask
my
colleague
what
his
understanding
is
of
the
suggested
reason
for
refusing
the
right
to
strike
to
all
of
these
employees
.
{sent}
the
suggested
reason
is
,
of
course
,
that
the
government
of
canada
cannot
be
allowed
to
be
caused
to
cease
governing
,
that
it
must
continuing
governing
no
matter
what
.
{sent}
therefore
,
there
cannot
be
undertaken
any
risk
that
it
might
be
stopped
by
a
strike
.
{sent}
i
would
like
my
colleague
to
comment
on
that
reasoning
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
that
is
assuming
that
parliament
is
an
essential
service
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
my
friend
,
the
hon.
member
for
nickel
belt
,
says
that
is
assuming
that
parliament
is
an
essential
service
.
{sent}
the
workings
of
parliament
are
extremely
important
,
if
not
essential
.
{sent}
i
believe
people
would
accept
that
.
{sent}
but
is
it
essential
that
parliamentarians
be
fed
in
the
cafeterias
on
parliament
hill
?
{sent}
should
there
be
provocation
to
the
point
that
a
strike
occurs
in
that
particular
service
,
or
in
the
messenger
service
or
on
the
little
green
buses
,
would
parliament
still
continue
?
{sent}
of
course
,
it
would
.
{sent}
therefore
,
i
think
it
is
arguable
that
large
areas
of
the
work
done
for
parliamentarians
is
not
essential
,
even
though
the
work
of
parliament
itself
is
essential
.
{sent}
we
,
of
course
,
have
the
power
to
legislate
were
it
to
be
ultimately
required
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
that
would
never
be
needed
.
{sent}
but
it
is
ludicrous
to
say
that
parliament
cannot
somehow
function
if
some
of
its
employees
have
a
potential
right
to
strike
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
time
for
questions
and
comments
has
now
terminated
.
{sent}
my
colleague
from
hamilton-east
(
ms.
copps
)
has
proposed
that
the
bill
be
read
in
a
month
's
time
and
not
be
adopted
today
.
{sent}
i
think
we
should
ask
ourselves
why
the
motion
was
presented
by
my
hon.
colleague
.
{sent}
since
then
,
not
a
word
about
the
bill
until
the
middle
of
april
.
{sent}
this
reminds
me
of
the
secretary
of
state
(
mr.
bouchard
)
and
what
he
told
me
in
the
house
today
in
referring
to
language
programs
:
we
must
not
go
too
fast
.
{sent}
we
cannot
proceed
at
a
brisk
pace
because
the
question
is
too
contentious
,
too
important
and
in
the
final
instance
too
perilous
.
{sent}
those
were
the
words
used
by
the
secretary
of
state
.
{sent}
bill
c-45
which
provides
employees
of
the
house
of
commons
and
the
senate
with
a
framework
of
representation
is
a
bill
which
must
be
looked
at
in
a
new
light
and
perspective
.
{sent}
in
its
present
form
,
the
legislation
has
been
rejected
by
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
,
as
well
by
the
national
association
of
broadcasting
employees
and
technicians
.
{sent}
their
concern
centres
on
the
fact
that
the
bill
enshrines
in
law
an
employer-employee
relationship
which
does
not
meet
with
the
employees'
approval
.
{sent}
with
the
new
developments
,
which
i
will
explain
later
,
bill
c-45
must
be
the
object
of
further
consideration
by
the
government
before
it
will
be
acceptable
to
its
own
employees
.
{sent}
i
for
one
would
go
along
with
the
process
of
further
consultation
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
see
the
government
sit
down
with
its
employees
in
order
to
figure
out
a
plan
of
action
which
would
be
acceptable
to
the
government
and
to
the
employees
of
parliament
.
{sent}
when
i
say
"
of
parliament
"
i
mean
the
seante
,
the
house
of
commons
,
and
the
library
of
parliament
.
{sent}
i
consider
the
workers
on
the
hill
essential
.
{sent}
whether
my
friend
,
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
centre
(
mr.
cassidy
)
,
does
or
does
not
,
i
do
.
{sent}
i
know
for
a
fact
that
if
the
bus
drivers
,
the
security
people
,
or
for
that
matter
any
employee
of
the
house
of
commons
goes
on
strike
,
my
friend
from
ottawa
centre
will
be
the
last
one
to
cross
a
picket
line
.
{sent}
i
know
him
to
be
very
respectful
of
picket
lines
.
{sent}
we
have
to
make
up
our
minds
in
respect
of
this
matter
.
{sent}
we
cannot
have
it
both
ways
.
{sent}
one
has
to
stand
up
and
say
:
"
yes
,
we
believe
their
services
are
essential
because
they
serve
parliament
and
parliament
is
a
servant
of
the
canadian
public
"
.
{sent}
it
is
an
essential
service
and
it
should
be
defined
as
such
.
{sent}
i
have
been
waiting
for
the
clerk
to
bring
me
a
definition
of
the
word
"
essential
"
as
defined
in
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
use
that
definition
in
my
participation
here
,
and
i
do
not
have
it
with
me
.
{sent}
i
see
that
a
gentleman
is
bringing
the
book
to
me
.
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
provencher
)
:
an
essential
service
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
yes
,
it
is
.
{sent}
here
is
an
example
in
vivo
,
as
we
say
.
{sent}
it
is
an
essential
service
to
the
members
of
this
house
.
{sent}
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
has
stated
to
employee
representatives
that
the
government
is
willing
to
give
parliamentary
employees
the
same
rights
as
those
enjoyed
by
public
servants
.
{sent}
however
,
the
legislation
presented
in
the
house
does
not
live
up
to
that
billing
.
{sent}
it
does
not
live
up
to
my
expectations
of
what
should
be
forthcoming
from
the
treasury
board
as
the
employer
of
public
servants
.
{sent}
i
say
that
it
does
not
live
up
to
my
expectations
because
i
went
through
this
process
before
in
1976-77
.
{sent}
at
that
time
the
house
of
commons
,
in
concert
with
the
other
place
,
formed
a
joint
committee
to
look
at
possible
amendments
to
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
.
{sent}
we
did
this
because
there
are
in
the
act
matters
which
i
find
to
be
in
great
need
of
change
.
{sent}
in
my
view
,
they
should
be
modernized
,
if
not
updated
,
to
take
the
wellbeing
of
our
public
servants
into
consideration
,
as
well
as
to
try
to
modernize
the
whole
process
of
negotiation
.
{sent}
there
are
matters
such
as
classification
standards
to
be
considered
.
{sent}
during
the
election
campaign
the
governing
party
promised
that
it
would
make
classification
standards
negotiable
.
{sent}
that
party
has
been
in
office
for
two
years
now
and
it
has
not
even
put
forward
a
suggestion
on
the
subject
.
{sent}
i
admit
it
is
a
complex
issue
.
{sent}
i
also
admit
that
it
is
a
very
technical
one
since
classification
standards
determine
where
one
sits
in
the
organization
,
what
kind
of
job
one
has
waiting
for
one
.
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
provencher
)
:
rug-ranking
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
i
believe
that
is
an
image
which
one
can
use
to
decide
where
one
sits
dans
l'organigramme
de
l'organisation
.
{sent}
i
find
it
interesting
that
a
challenge
such
as
amending
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
has
not
been
forthcoming
and
that
the
government
still
hesitates
.
{sent}
it
hesitates
on
this
matter
as
it
does
on
many
other
matters
.
{sent}
it
hesitates
to
come
forward
with
some
reasonable
and
meaningful
modifications
to
its
own
public
service
staff
relations
act
.
{sent}
yet
the
government
would
like
us
to
buy
bill
c-45
when
,
indeed
,
we
know
that
the
employees
are
not
happy
with
the
process
.
{sent}
why
are
they
not
happy
?
{sent}
i
will
explain
why
.
{sent}
bill
c-45
does
not
allow
the
employees
of
the
house
the
right
to
strike
.
{sent}
it
is
a
right
which
they
would
enjoy
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
recent
canada
labour
relations
board
rulings
have
indicated
that
hill
employees
are
governed
by
the
canada
labour
code
and
that
they
can
be
represented
by
certified
bargaining
units
.
{sent}
this
is
the
reason
employees
on
the
hill
want
to
be
covered
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
they
think
that
the
deal
they
will
get
through
that
arrangement
is
better
than
the
deal
they
will
get
through
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
.
{sent}
the
unions
on
the
hill
have
said
that
they
will
forgo
their
right
to
strike
because
they
understand
what
are
essential
services
.
{sent}
god
knows
they
are
devoted
and
that
they
have
been
good
to
us
.
{sent}
however
,
they
want
the
assurance
,
as
do
all
public
servants
,
that
binding
arbitration
procedures
will
be
changed
and
not
maintained
as
they
exist
in
their
present
form
.
{sent}
that
is
the
key
to
the
whole
issue
.
{sent}
the
employees
have
said
:
"
we
will
not
strike
,
but
you
must
give
us
a
deal
.
{sent}
we
will
forfeit
our
right
to
strike
in
exchange
for
an
agreement
on
arbitration
procedures
and
matters
which
are
not
covered
in
the
present
legislation
"
.
{sent}
i
would
add
that
they
are
not
covered
in
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
either
.
{sent}
nabet
and
psac
object
,
in
particular
,
to
clauses
5(3)
and
55(2)
.
{sent}
clause
5(3)
states
:
{sent}
i
will
now
read
into
the
record
clause
55(2)
since
it
is
important
.
{sent}
it
states
:
{sent}
in
the
name
of
all
of
us
here
in
parliament
how
can
the
government
proceed
with
a
bill
that
does
not
make
classification
standards
a
negotiable
matter
?
{sent}
why
do
we
not
place
that
on
the
table
?
{sent}
that
is
what
the
government
promised
during
the
election
campaign
.
{sent}
it
is
something
with
which
i
am
in
accord
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
that
members
of
the
new
democratic
party
would
object
to
it
.
{sent}
why
not
give
some
of
these
matters
serious
thought
?
{sent}
i
recall
that
the
treasury
board
,
in
negotiating
several
contracts
this
year
,
tried
to
give
its
employees
a
reasonable
approach
in
regard
to
lay-off
.
{sent}
we
are
now
into
an
era
of
compression
of
the
human
resources
of
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
therefore
,
the
government
must
be
very
sensitive
and
try
to
answer
those
justifiable
and
deeply
felt
feelings
of
people
who
may
be
threatened
in
their
jobs
and
in
their
careers
.
{sent}
that
is
the
essential
truth
.
{sent}
when
the
average
person
in
my
riding
thinks
of
the
house
of
commons
and
its
essential
role
,
he
or
she
does
not
understand
why
parliament
has
taken
so
long
to
come
to
grips
with
the
issue
of
employer-employee
relations
.
{sent}
i
heard
the
conservative
member
for
nepean
--
carleton
(
mr.
tupper
)
on
the
radio
the
other
day
,
and
i
will
paraphrase
what
he
said
.
{sent}
he
said
that
bill
c-45
is
landmark
labour
legislation
which
provides
hill
workers
with
important
rights
including
health
and
safety
rights
.
{sent}
to
say
that
bill
c-45
is
landmark
labour
legislation
is
,
i
think
,
to
misinform
canadians
and
the
ottawa
community
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
hill
employees
are
covered
by
bill
c-24
and
we
know
that
because
we
debated
it
.
{sent}
the
workers
on
the
hill
have
asked
for
a
six-month
delay
.
{sent}
they
have
asked
for
meaningful
negotiations
.
{sent}
i
believe
they
are
in
possession
of
a
decision
on
the
canada
labour
code
which
makes
them
confident
that
they
will
now
be
able
to
come
forward
with
an
meaningful
employer-employee
relations
formula
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
are
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
if
there
are
no
questions
or
comments
,
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
no.
{sent}
ms.
margaret
mitchell
(
vancouver
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
very
pleased
to
speak
against
this
bill
,
which
i
consider
to
be
a
real
disgrace
to
members
of
parliament
and
certainly
to
the
government
.
{sent}
it
does
not
deal
with
the
real
and
urgent
need
for
true
collective
bargaining
rights
for
employees
of
parliament
,
including
employees
of
members
of
parliament
.
{sent}
nineteen
years
ago
,
stanley
knowles
spoke
of
the
obligation
of
parliament
to
protect
the
rights
of
parliamentary
employees
.
{sent}
he
advocated
collective
bargaining
rights
for
all
employees
.
{sent}
according
to
a
recent
report
done
by
mr.
jeff
parr
who
has
studied
this
matter
at
some
length
,
he
has
said
the
following
:
{sent}
this
bill
does
not
grant
rights
;
indeed
it
restricts
them
.
{sent}
mr.
parr
's
report
is
entitled
preserving
the
employee
's
prerogative
,
and
he
also
said
the
following
:
{sent}
but
it
has
been
much
less
successful
in
protecting
employees
of
parliament
hill
from
abuse
by
their
employers
.
{sent}
some
of
those
employers
sit
right
here
in
parliament
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
relate
to
the
house
my
own
personal
feelings
about
this
matter
.
{sent}
i
came
to
this
house
as
an
elected
member
in
1979
.
{sent}
at
that
time
,
and
there
has
not
been
a
great
deal
of
change
since
,
it
was
very
apparent
to
me
how
unprotected
workers
were
.
{sent}
i
was
concerned
particularly
about
the
working
conditions
of
workers
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
a
number
of
employees
of
the
parliamentary
restaurant
and
others
have
spoken
to
me
about
their
concerns
,
but
they
are
afraid
to
talk
openly
because
they
feel
very
insecure
.
{sent}
they
are
afraid
of
making
complaints
because
they
do
not
have
any
protection
.
{sent}
there
are
no
grievance
procedures
.
{sent}
i
was
struck
,
and
i
imagine
most
female
members
of
the
house
were
struck
,
by
the
patriarchal
atmosphere
of
parliament
hill
which
still
exists
.
{sent}
the
kind
of
lack
of
respect
that
appears
so
often
in
this
patriarchal
atmosphere
would
not
be
tolerated
if
staff
members
had
a
union
.
{sent}
it
is
undemocratic
and
it
is
offensive
.
{sent}
until
recently
,
women
and
men
were
locked
in
traditional
job
ghettos
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
women
were
the
waitresses
and
men
were
the
supervisors
and
members
of
the
security
staff
with
a
higher
rate
of
pay
.
{sent}
i
congratulate
the
former
speaker
of
the
house
,
who
is
now
the
governor
general
,
for
the
kinds
of
changes
she
made
.
{sent}
i
am
referring
to
changes
which
moved
employees
on
the
hill
one
step
toward
greater
equality
and
equal
opportunities
.
{sent}
as
well
,
i
wish
our
staff
were
much
better
paid
.
{sent}
this
demonstrates
that
there
has
been
some
change
,
but
the
slowness
of
the
change
has
been
quite
appalling
.
{sent}
also
it
demonstrates
the
need
for
collective
bargaining
rights
for
employees
who
work
for
parliament
and
for
members
of
parliament
.
{sent}
it
should
be
a
right
.
{sent}
they
should
have
a
proper
grievance
procedure
and
all
the
conditions
which
go
along
with
collective
bargaining
rights
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
give
two
or
three
examples
of
the
experiences
documented
by
hill
employees
.
{sent}
there
is
quite
a
long
list
,
but
i
will
mention
the
ones
which
pertain
particularly
to
female
employees
.
{sent}
they
are
some
of
the
types
of
problems
which
reinforce
the
need
for
collective
bargaining
rights
as
a
means
to
resolve
workplace
issues
.
{sent}
the
administration
of
the
library
states
than
an
administrative
error
was
made
.
{sent}
this
would
not
have
been
allowed
to
happen
if
those
people
had
been
in
a
union
.
{sent}
another
is
the
employee
assistance
program
of
the
house
of
commons
which
was
established
to
give
employees
a
safety-valve
or
a
means
of
having
personal
problems
dealt
with
in
confidence
by
a
qualified
counsellor
.
{sent}
an
appeal
to
the
speaker
asking
for
the
position
to
be
re-established
was
denied
.
{sent}
two
petitions
signed
by
1,500
hill
employees
were
ignored
.
{sent}
this
kind
of
attitude
and
denial
of
sensible
employee
rights
would
not
take
place
if
employees
on
the
hill
had
collective
bargaining
rights
and
a
union
of
their
choice
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
refer
to
another
example
in
the
support
services
.
{sent}
a
female
employee
is
the
object
of
sexual
harassment
.
{sent}
her
manager
touches
her
,
leans
up
behind
her
and
rubs
against
her
.
{sent}
when
she
protests
she
is
assigned
a
heavier
work-load
.
{sent}
she
is
later
given
a
poor
performance
evaluation
and
finally
transferred
to
another
position
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
most
employees
who
experience
sexual
harassment
would
be
afraid
to
complain
about
it
under
the
present
situation
.
{sent}
it
should
not
be
tolerated
either
by
workers
or
by
all
of
us
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
the
only
way
to
deal
with
it
in
a
proessional
and
effective
way
is
to
have
a
union
agreement
and
a
proper
grievance
procedure
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
refer
to
another
example
.
{sent}
in
the
cafeteria
services
an
employee
cuts
his
hand
on
the
job
.
{sent}
he
is
told
to
visit
the
nurse
.
{sent}
the
nurse
tells
him
that
it
is
not
safe
to
work
and
that
he
should
go
home
.
{sent}
the
manager
informs
the
employee
that
he
should
go
back
to
work
or
face
discipline
.
{sent}
what
kind
of
work
situation
is
that
?
{sent}
this
is
the
kind
of
condition
which
should
not
be
left
to
chance
or
whim
.
{sent}
all
of
us
,
as
well-meaning
employers
,
are
working
under
pressure
and
perhaps
our
own
needs
come
before
those
of
the
employees
.
{sent}
let
us
return
to
bill
c-45
which
is
before
us
.
{sent}
there
are
many
problems
with
it
,
and
that
is
why
we
do
not
support
it
.
{sent}
we
support
negotiated
collective
bargaining
rights
for
employees
.
{sent}
government
members
may
not
realize
how
ineffective
bill
c-45
is
.
{sent}
many
important
concerns
are
not
open
for
negotiation
.
{sent}
they
are
not
on
the
table
at
all
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
refer
to
some
examples
of
this
.
{sent}
bill
c-45
prevents
any
real
negotiation
of
the
classification
of
positions
and
assignment
of
duties
.
{sent}
limits
are
set
on
what
grievances
can
go
to
third
party
arbitration
.
{sent}
union
grievances
are
not
allowed
.
{sent}
what
kind
of
collective
bargaining
are
we
talking
about
if
union
grievances
are
not
allowed
?
{sent}
the
staff
of
members
of
parliament
are
excluded
from
the
right
to
collective
bargaining
,
a
great
omission
.
{sent}
also
the
right
to
strike
is
prohibited
.
{sent}
i
heard
my
colleague
speak
about
essential
services
.
{sent}
in
any
collective
bargaining
negotiation
there
is
a
definition
of
essential
services
as
a
part
of
the
negotiations
between
employers
and
employees
.
{sent}
it
would
be
worked
out
as
part
of
the
collective
bargaining
procedure
if
it
were
a
sound
procedure
,
and
the
bill
does
not
offer
it
.
{sent}
certification
procedures
require
that
all
the
union
cards
which
have
been
signed
on
parliament
hill
be
re-signed
.
{sent}
this
eliminates
the
kinds
of
negotiations
and
certifications
under
the
canada
labour
code
which
have
already
gone
forward
.
{sent}
we
are
very
disappointed
that
they
have
not
been
implemented
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
elaborate
quickly
and
for
the
record
on
some
of
the
negative
points
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
first
,
classification
under
the
bill
would
prevent
any
negotiation
on
problems
related
to
job
descriptions
,
assignment
of
pay
level
and
evaluation
of
duties
.
{sent}
the
present
situation
as
far
as
classifications
are
concerned
has
evolved
over
the
years
,
taking
into
account
special
characteristics
peculiar
to
the
environment
of
parliament
hill
.
{sent}
i
understand
that
it
is
the
source
of
a
great
deal
of
employee
dissatisfaction
.
{sent}
as
an
employer
i
like
to
have
a
collective
job
classification
system
in
my
office
,
and
the
criteria
set
down
by
the
house
make
it
very
difficult
to
have
everyone
at
an
equal
level
of
pay
.
{sent}
many
employees
do
not
have
job
descriptions
at
all
.
{sent}
those
employees
who
have
them
discover
that
they
are
out
of
date
and
frequently
and
arbitrarily
changed
in
an
environment
which
has
seen
extensive
reorganization
and
technological
change
introduced
.
{sent}
the
result
is
that
employees
on
the
whole
are
frustrated
and
insecure
,
and
there
is
a
low
level
of
morale
.
{sent}
improper
classification
can
also
result
in
significant
financial
losses
for
employees
.
{sent}
the
lack
of
proper
job
descriptions
hampers
efficient
operation
of
the
workplace
.
{sent}
under
the
canada
labour
code
,
classification
can
be
negotiated
and
has
been
successfully
negotiated
in
many
workplaces
.
{sent}
we
should
have
the
same
situation
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
there
should
be
at
least
a
minimum
requirement
for
acceptable
legislation
,
and
it
is
not
covered
effectively
by
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
we
know
that
parliament
hill
has
a
history
of
staffing
decisions
which
are
coloured
by
political
influence
,
favouritism
,
nepotism
and
even
administrative
incompetence
.
{sent}
parliamentary
employees
want
to
have
a
say
in
establishing
a
fair
and
equitable
staffing
system
based
upon
merit
,
length
of
experience
and
service
.
{sent}
if
certified
under
the
canada
labour
code
,
employees
would
have
the
right
to
negotiate
both
staffing
and
classification
.
{sent}
as
it
stands
bill
c-45
is
inferior
to
the
canada
labour
code
and
to
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
.
{sent}
the
whole
question
of
grievances
is
a
very
important
right
of
employees
,
especially
in
this
kind
of
situation
and
in
view
of
our
traditions
on
parliament
hill
.
{sent}
bill
c-45
does
not
allow
workplace
problems
to
be
addressed
by
union
grievances
,
grievances
filed
by
a
group
of
workers
.
{sent}
for
example
,
there
are
health
and
safety
problems
in
the
print-shop
and
cafeterias
.
{sent}
i
remember
several
years
ago
hearing
complaints
about
this
.
{sent}
here
it
is
coming
up
again
,
particularly
about
air
quality
and
other
environmental
problems
in
the
wellington
building
.
{sent}
these
cannot
be
subject
to
a
union
grievance
.
{sent}
what
are
workers
supposed
to
do
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
they
have
been
putting
up
with
bad
air
for
years
.
{sent}
technological
change
also
brings
in
very
negative
kinds
of
habits
that
are
environmental
situations
,
and
these
cannot
be
contested
by
filing
a
union
grievance
under
this
bill
.
{sent}
what
use
is
the
bill
if
that
is
the
case
?
{sent}
if
an
item
cannot
be
brought
to
third
party
adjudication
,
the
employer
is
under
no
requirements
to
take
it
seriously
.
{sent}
it
remains
an
in-house
issue
.
{sent}
for
example
,
a
poor
performance
appraisal
,
demotion
or
transfer
cannot
go
to
adjudication
.
{sent}
a
grievance
cannot
go
to
adjudication
.
{sent}
again
,
it
shows
the
weakness
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
what
about
the
right
to
strike
?
{sent}
i
know
this
is
a
very
controversial
issue
in
the
minds
of
some
members
of
parliament
.
{sent}
i
know
that
parliamentary
employees
do
not
want
to
go
on
strike
,
few
workers
ever
do
.
{sent}
this
is
only
a
final
resort
used
by
workers
when
all
else
fails
.
{sent}
nevertheless
,
it
is
a
fundamental
union
right
that
workers
must
be
able
to
negotiate
on
an
equitable
basis
with
an
employer
by
having
the
right
to
withdraw
their
services
.
{sent}
within
this
are
certain
essential
services
that
are
defined
and
agreed
to
by
both
employees
and
employers
.
{sent}
without
the
right
to
strike
,
the
impetus
for
failing
negotiated
settlements
is
lost
.
{sent}
if
there
were
terrible
working
conditions
that
could
not
be
negotiated
by
any
other
means
,
i
would
be
proud
of
my
employees
if
they
went
out
on
strike
.
{sent}
this
brings
me
to
the
crossing
of
picket
lines
.
{sent}
i
,
for
one
,
would
not
cross
a
picket
line
.
{sent}
in
other
unionized
legislatures
,
such
as
queen
's
park
,
quebec
city
,
westminster
and
australia
,
the
right
to
strike
has
not
interfered
with
the
workings
of
parliament
.
{sent}
i
was
interested
to
learn
that
those
parliaments
have
a
collective
bargaining
right
to
strike
.
{sent}
another
concern
about
this
bill
has
to
do
with
other
staff
.
{sent}
as
we
said
earlier
,
this
section
of
the
bill
excludes
the
1,200
employees
of
members
of
parliament
,
leaders'
staff
and
research
staff
from
collective
bargaining
provisions
.
{sent}
i
cannot
understand
at
all
why
this
is
necessary
.
{sent}
i
think
most
of
us
are
very
concerned
about
the
inequities
from
one
office
to
another
that
affect
staffs
of
members
of
parliament
.
{sent}
there
are
different
working
hours
and
hiring
conditions
.
{sent}
there
are
different
rates
of
pay
for
the
same
jobs
and
so
on
.
{sent}
all
workers
on
the
hill
should
have
the
same
right
to
collective
bargaining
.
{sent}
they
should
choose
to
exercise
it
as
other
canadian
workers
have
these
rights
.
{sent}
it
is
argued
that
bill
c-45
will
cover
members'
staffs
by
certain
parts
of
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
however
,
this
coverage
provides
only
very
minimum
standards
.
{sent}
we
have
concerns
about
that
.
{sent}
i
think
you
are
aware
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
we
in
the
new
democratic
caucus
have
had
a
collective
agreement
with
our
own
staffs
since
1977
.
{sent}
this
agreement
has
been
negotiated
three
times
since
then
.
{sent}
our
contract
sets
standards
for
working
conditions
for
employees
who
are
hired
by
our
caucus
.
{sent}
however
,
we
cannot
negotiate
wages
with
our
staffs
because
employers
,
members
of
parliament
,
do
not
have
control
over
their
budgets
.
{sent}
the
house
of
commons
has
control
.
{sent}
although
we
support
this
organization
and
negotiate
officially
and
sign
agreements
with
our
organization
which
is
called
pass
,
it
is
not
the
answer
.
{sent}
it
does
provide
grievance
procedures
which
include
appeals
of
difficult
problems
for
third
party
arbitration
.
{sent}
it
also
provides
agreed
procedures
for
staffing
of
vacant
positions
,
technological
change
,
respect
for
overtime
hours
and
standards
for
vacations
,
education
and
travel
.
{sent}
these
are
very
important
questions
.
{sent}
again
,
i
do
not
want
to
say
that
we
cannot
have
a
real
collective
bargaining
agreement
with
our
staff
until
this
is
recognized
under
law
and
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
bill
c-45
will
not
help
us
in
that
regard
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
it
will
be
a
regressive
step
for
our
staff
because
our
staff
would
not
be
included
under
this
bill
.
{sent}
there
are
many
other
things
i
would
like
to
raise
,
mr.
speaker
,
but
my
time
is
up
and
i
know
my
colleagues
will
be
presenting
other
arguments
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
won't
take
up
much
of
the
time
of
the
house
because
i
know
all
parties
want
this
bill
to
proceed
.
{sent}
has
she
had
an
opportunity
to
discuss
her
concerns
with
the
member
or
members
of
her
party
who
sat
on
that
committee
?
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
it
is
my
understanding
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
members
of
our
caucus
never
agreed
that
the
bill
was
satisfactory
.
{sent}
i
think
i
have
already
elaborated
on
the
reasons
.
{sent}
there
are
many
more
.
{sent}
the
bill
is
weak
in
many
regards
and
there
is
no
way
our
caucus
would
agree
to
it
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
the
exact
history
to
which
the
hon.
member
referred
.
{sent}
perhaps
we
can
get
one
of
our
members
to
elaborate
but
i
know
we
are
unanimous
in
opposing
this
bill
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
mr.
speaker
,
rather
than
precipitate
any
further
disagreement
in
the
new
democratic
party
i
will
not
pursue
that
line
of
questioning
any
further
.
{sent}
i
must
admit
to
the
house
that
i
could
not
find
it
.
{sent}
it
is
possibly
what
we
do
here
.
{sent}
i
did
find
in
section
79
of
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
a
designated
employee
as
one
:
{sent}
i
think
it
was
related
through
certain
experiments
done
in
laboratories
and
in
certain
other
instances
where
one
would
require
the
people
who
look
after
these
labs
or
essential
services
to
be
designated
.
{sent}
i
want
to
ask
the
hon.
member
for
vancouver
east
(
ms.
mitchell
)
a
question
because
it
is
important
for
me
to
understand
where
the
member
stands
.
{sent}
i
am
thinking
of
the
security
guards
,
for
example
,
or
for
that
matter
anybody
related
to
the
maintenance
of
this
place
.
{sent}
would
the
member
cross
a
picket
line
if
the
front
of
this
building
were
picketed
?
{sent}
i
would
like
to
know
what
she
would
do
in
that
instance
.
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
very
pleased
to
answer
that
question
.
{sent}
i
certainly
would
not
cross
a
picket
line
.
{sent}
it
is
very
important
to
recognize
the
rights
of
workers
.
{sent}
with
regard
to
strikes
,
it
seems
to
me
that
in
the
past
members
of
parliament
have
shown
the
right
to
strike
.
{sent}
i
am
thinking
of
a
number
of
occasions
when
this
house
has
been
closed
down
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
that
canada
suffered
too
much
during
those
incidents
.
{sent}
in
any
collective
bargaining
agreement
,
part
of
the
negotiations
are
to
clarify
essential
services
.
{sent}
unions
are
very
understanding
of
what
these
essential
services
are
and
make
arrangements
for
the
workers
to
continue
providing
those
services
.
{sent}
adjournment
debate
{sent}
proceedings
on
adjournment
motion
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relations
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
he
spent
about
two
years
working
four
or
five
evenings
a
week
on
the
campaign
.
{sent}
he
then
took
a
leave
of
absence
without
pay
to
work
full
time
in
the
organizing
effort
.
{sent}
we
believe
that
this
bill
is
aimed
at
restricting
the
collective
bargaining
rights
of
these
employees
,
the
rights
which
they
would
have
had
under
he
provisions
of
the
canada
labour
relations
code
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
the
provisions
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
employees
of
members
of
parliament
and
the
leaders
of
the
parties
,
and
research
staffs
of
the
parties
are
excluded
from
some
clauses
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
another
clause
prevents
any
negotiation
on
classification
issues
.
{sent}
there
would
be
no
negotiations
,
under
the
provisions
of
this
bill
,
for
questions
of
job
description
,
assignment
of
pay
levels
,
or
change
in
duties
.
{sent}
the
present
system
of
classification
would
be
left
unchanged
.
{sent}
this
system
is
totally
unacceptable
and
is
the
cause
of
much
employee
dissatisfaction
.
{sent}
under
another
clause
no
arbitral
award
can
deal
with
appointments
,
appraisals
,
promotions
,
demotions
,
transfers
,
lay-offs
,
and
releases
.
{sent}
this
is
similar
to
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
,
but
other
public
service
employees
have
rights
under
the
public
service
employment
act
,
which
this
bill
does
not
provide
for
employees
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
another
section
restricts
the
right
of
grievance
to
the
individual
employee
.
{sent}
workplace
problems
cannot
be
addressed
by
union
grievances
,
grievances
filed
on
behalf
of
a
group
of
workers
.
{sent}
there
is
one
other
important
matter
which
is
completely
overlooked
,
and
that
is
the
whole
question
of
technological
change
.
{sent}
any
member
of
parliament
who
has
been
here
for
any
length
of
time
knows
how
rapidly
and
fundamentally
the
operations
of
their
offices
have
changed
in
recent
years
.
{sent}
technological
change
is
occurring
on
the
hill
as
it
is
everywhere
else
.
{sent}
even
employees
with
many
years
of
experience
fear
they
will
be
laid
off
.
{sent}
rather
than
allay
these
fears
,
management
has
fueled
them
with
major
reorganizations
and
cut-backs
in
several
areas
.
{sent}
i
do
not
want
to
criticize
anyone
presently
or
formerly
in
management
,
but
i
am
sure
that
members
know
that
many
of
the
decisions
made
in
recent
years
had
adverse
effects
on
many
of
our
employees
.
{sent}
an
older
female
employee
with
close
to
20
years
seniority
in
a
position
injured
her
back
and
was
off
on
long-term
disability
for
a
couple
of
months
.
{sent}
when
she
returned
,
she
was
assigned
duties
which
included
heavy
lifting
and
carrying
,
although
her
old
position
still
existed
.
{sent}
she
was
told
she
should
apply
for
early
retirement
if
she
was
not
satisfied
.
{sent}
her
grievance
under
the
present
procedure
was
denied
.
{sent}
that
could
never
have
happened
if
that
employee
had
belonged
to
a
union
which
had
the
right
to
real
collective
bargaining
.
{sent}
as
a
second
example
,
a
technician
was
hired
for
a
position
and
was
paid
below
the
advertised
salary
level
.
{sent}
it
took
the
individual
a
year
and
a
half
to
reach
the
salary
level
advertised
in
the
competition
.
{sent}
a
year
later
another
technician
was
hired
with
the
same
qualifications
and
started
at
the
posted
level
immediately
.
{sent}
i
suppose
the
new
employee
was
a
friend
of
the
supervisor
.
{sent}
that
would
never
happen
if
there
was
a
real
union
.
{sent}
here
is
another
one
;
employees
in
a
technical
service
are
required
to
attend
training
courses
on
their
days
off
and
on
weekends
without
pay
.
{sent}
when
these
employees
protested
,
they
were
told
it
was
mandatory
and
they
had
no
choice
.
{sent}
in
what
other
area
would
this
be
permitted
?
{sent}
no
area
where
there
is
a
union
.
{sent}
these
are
the
reasons
workers
join
unions
.
{sent}
the
employees
of
the
restaurant
and
cafeterias
have
to
suffer
because
,
supposedly
,
we
have
to
save
money
.
{sent}
all
employees
have
been
informed
they
can
be
assigned
any
duties
,
although
many
have
held
specialized
positions
for
a
number
of
years
.
{sent}
this
is
the
kind
of
thing
that
is
completely
unreasonable
and
unacceptable
.
{sent}
two
butchers
have
been
assigned
to
drive
food
delivery
trucks
,
and
a
pastry
chef
was
assigned
to
washing
and
cutting
vegetables
.
{sent}
is
it
surprising
that
the
level
of
frustration
in
the
cafeteria
service
is
very
high
?
{sent}
i
ask
members
who
have
doubts
that
this
is
happening
to
talk
to
the
people
in
the
restaurant
and
cafeteria
business
whom
they
know
.
{sent}
in
a
support
service
a
female
employee
was
the
object
of
sexual
harassment
.
{sent}
her
manager
touched
her
,
leaned
up
behind
her
and
rubbed
against
her
.
{sent}
when
she
protested
,
she
was
assigned
to
a
heavier
work
load
and
later
given
a
poor
performance
evaluation
,
and
finally
transferred
to
another
position
.
{sent}
we
have
just
been
discussing
and
debating
employer
equity
legislation
.
{sent}
it
is
ludicrous
to
be
discussing
that
kind
of
legislation
and
listening
to
all
the
wonderful
speeches
in
theory
,
which
we
have
heard
from
the
government
side
when
this
kind
of
thing
happens
.
{sent}
in
the
cafeteria
service
an
employee
cut
his
hand
on
the
job
.
{sent}
he
was
told
to
visit
the
nurse
.
{sent}
the
nurse
told
him
it
was
not
safe
to
work
and
that
he
should
go
home
.
{sent}
the
manager
informed
the
employee
he
should
go
back
to
work
or
face
discipline
.
{sent}
in
a
technical
service
a
senior
position
became
vacant
.
{sent}
several
employees
inquired
about
a
competition
,
but
none
was
held
.
{sent}
the
husband
of
a
manager
in
another
department
of
the
same
service
was
brought
in
to
fill
the
position
on
a
temporary
basis
.
{sent}
several
months
later
a
competition
was
announced
.
{sent}
the
now
experienced
husband
was
,
of
course
,
hired
permanently
as
he
now
had
the
experience
.
{sent}
the
appeal
of
the
employees
in
the
service
was
denied
.
{sent}
that
reminds
me
of
the
kind
of
thing
that
went
on
in
the
packing
plants
in
winnipeg
40
years
ago
.
{sent}
that
kind
of
thing
has
not
happened
in
employment
areas
for
many
,
many
years
where
unions
have
had
the
right
to
bargain
collectively
for
their
workers
.
{sent}
it
is
a
disgrace
that
the
kinds
of
illustrations
i
have
put
on
the
record
today
should
continue
in
the
parliament
of
canada
in
the
year
1986
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
so
deficient
that
it
does
not
provide
adequate
means
for
the
people
who
work
on
parliament
hill
to
lodge
grievances
which
can
be
dealt
with
equitably
.
{sent}
when
i
say
,
"
being
dealt
with
equitably
"
i
mean
that
they
can
be
discussed
openly
,
honestly
and
fairly
between
the
employee
and
employer
.
{sent}
i
do
not
say
that
the
employees
are
always
right
.
{sent}
we
all
know
that
employees
are
like
any
other
human
beings
,
sometimes
subject
to
doing
the
wrong
thing
.
{sent}
usually
they
arrive
at
a
settlement
which
is
acceptable
to
both
sides
.
{sent}
if
they
do
not
,
that
dispute
can
go
to
an
impartial
arbitrator
who
would
hear
the
case
as
presented
by
both
sides
and
render
a
judgment
.
{sent}
that
is
not
provided
for
in
this
legislation
.
{sent}
none
of
these
benefits
are
provided
for
these
temporary
employees
who
are
being
found
on
the
hill
and
in
government
departments
more
and
more
.
{sent}
all
of
these
questions
need
to
be
dealt
with
in
a
fair
and
equitable
way
.
{sent}
because
this
bill
is
so
deficient
in
meeting
the
needs
of
workers
who
work
on
parliament
hill
,
i
and
my
colleagues
in
the
new
democratic
party
intend
to
vote
against
this
it
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
is
the
hon.
member
rising
on
a
point
of
order
?
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
are
awaiting
a
document
which
will
be
tabled
under
the
house
order
which
was
passed
earlier
this
day
,
and
i
think
if
we
could
perhaps
proceed
to
the
next
speaker
--
{sent}
are
there
any
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
i
have
a
short
question
i
would
like
to
put
to
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
north
(
mr.
orlikow
)
.
{sent}
he
has
been
a
member
of
this
chamber
for
a
very
long
time
,
as
we
all
know
.
{sent}
he
has
had
the
opportunity
to
meet
with
and
speak
to
employees
for
many
years
.
{sent}
as
history
sometimes
works
,
the
tables
have
turned
and
i
find
today
many
employees
coming
to
my
office
for
the
same
reasons
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
lanark
--
renfrew
--
carleton
(
mr.
dick
)
,
with
his
usual
wisdom
,
has
said
:
"
perhaps
they
are
very
hard
up
"
.
{sent}
they
're
not
that
hard
up
because
they
would
have
gone
to
see
him
.
{sent}
then
again
,
they
probably
would
not
because
the
service
they
would
get
would
not
be
very
good
.
{sent}
through
that
mechanism
,
and
through
the
good
offices
of
the
speaker
and
others
,
there
was
at
least
a
form
of
redress
.
{sent}
now
,
with
the
administration
of
the
house
fully
structured
and
the
employees'
rights
being
unstructured
,
if
the
hon.
member
follows
my
line
of
thought
,
there
seems
to
be
a
tremendous
imbalance
.
{sent}
on
the
management
side
everything
is
formalized
,
but
there
is
very
little
of
this
on
the
employee
side
.
{sent}
that
has
,
in
my
view
,
and
i
would
like
the
hon.
member
to
comment
,
created
a
situation
where
the
employee
is
totally
frustrated
when
it
comes
time
to
try
to
grieve
an
injustice
.
{sent}
of
course
,
the
employee
is
equally
frustrated
in
attempting
to
get
redress
for
that
kind
of
situation
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
mr.
speaker
,
if
the
hon.
member
is
asking
me
whether
the
present
system
does
not
work
very
well
,
i
agree
with
him
.
{sent}
we
have
supposedly
a
very
structured
,
trained
and
efficient
management
staff
with
great
power
,
indeed
too
much
power
,
to
deal
with
the
individual
complaints
of
employees
.
{sent}
if
,
on
the
other
hand
,
he
suggests
that
the
situation
was
better
years
ago
,
i
cannot
agree
with
him
.
{sent}
i
can
remember
that
when
i
first
came
here
,
outside
the
office
door
of
one
of
the
liberal
members
from
ottawa
there
could
be
found
about
25
chairs
sitting
in
the
hall
.
{sent}
that
was
a
very
bad
system
of
patronage
which
i
think
,
fortunately
,
is
long
gone
.
{sent}
mr.
dick
:
you
are
talking
about
boudria
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
yes
,
i
am
talking
about
those
guys
.
{sent}
mr.
dick
:
that
is
how
he
got
hired
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
put
that
on
the
record
.
{sent}
mr.
dick
:
probably
?
{sent}
you
do
not
know
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
or
comments
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
try
to
ignore
the
subsequent
ignorant
interruption
of
the
hon.
member
for
lanark
--
renfrew
--
carleton
and
go
back
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
well
,
it
is
true
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
well
,
it
was
!
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
really
do
not
care
whether
or
not
it
was
.
{sent}
the
question
should
be
directed
to
the
hon.
member
who
has
just
finished
speaking
.
{sent}
i
hope
the
hon.
member
will
direct
his
comments
to
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
north
(
mr.
orlikow
)
.
{sent}
i
hope
that
the
hon.
member
for
--
{sent}
mr.
dick
:
i
did
not
say
a
thing
until
he
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
would
hope
that
the
hon.
member
will
not
interject
.
{sent}
we
are
waiting
for
a
statement
from
the
hon.
minister
and
you
are
causing
me
a
lot
of
grief
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
you
never
say
anything
,
paul
.
{sent}
mr.
dick
:
it
is
true
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
north
is
well
versed
in
the
situation
involving
employees
of
this
house
.
{sent}
i
do
not
like
the
kind
of
system
he
has
described
either
.
{sent}
however
,
what
we
are
talking
about
is
the
employees'
grievances
.
{sent}
over
the
years
,
and
even
today
,
in
the
absence
of
any
formal
structure
,
employees
on
many
occasions
present
their
grievances
to
members
of
this
house
in
an
attempt
to
obtain
redress
.
{sent}
as
the
hon.
member
has
appropriately
described
,
there
have
been
a
large
number
of
such
injustices
in
the
past
,
and
he
has
described
some
of
them
.
{sent}
later
on
in
my
remarks
i
intend
to
spend
some
time
describing
some
of
them
as
well
.
{sent}
i
see
a
deterioration
in
the
morale
of
employees
from
what
it
was
a
year
and
a
half
ago
when
i
came
back
to
this
building
,
compared
to
what
it
was
during
the
1960s
and
1970s
.
{sent}
then
there
was
at
least
a
system
,
although
informal
and
improperly
structured
and
not
the
best
,
where
employees
could
attempt
to
obtain
redress
.
{sent}
that
is
not
the
case
now
.
{sent}
that
is
really
what
i
was
questioning
,
not
the
hiring
practices
,
because
of
course
they
are
indefensible
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
mr.
speaker
,
let
me
just
reply
very
briefly
by
saying
to
the
hon.
member
that
there
will
be
problems
as
long
as
the
system
of
grievances
is
informal
and
not
based
on
a
precise
set
of
rules
and
regulations
.
{sent}
if
you
do
not
have
a
system
based
on
law
and
procedures
which
are
clearly
outlined
in
advance
,
there
will
be
a
great
deal
of
dissatisfaction
with
the
decisions
made
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
period
for
questions
and
comments
has
now
expired
.
{sent}
pursuant
to
an
order
made
earlier
this
day
,
the
house
will
now
revert
to
tabling
of
documents
.
{sent}
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relations
act
{sent}
routine
proceedings
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
tabling
of
correspondence
respecting
imasco
bid
to
take
over
genstar
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
house
will
now
proceed
to
statements
by
ministers
.
{sent}
-
statements
by
ministers
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
imasco
bid
to
take
over
genstar
--
government
position
{sent}
the
issues
which
have
been
raised
are
important
and
i
commend
hon.
members
for
their
concern
.
{sent}
the
government
's
responsibility
is
to
protect
the
public
interest
in
the
financial
sector
.
{sent}
i
know
that
hon.
members
share
that
concern
.
{sent}
that
is
why
i
proposed
,
and
the
government
is
carrying
forward
,
a
comprehensive
review
of
financial
institution
regulation
.
{sent}
that
is
why
public
notice
of
impending
legislation
,
which
is
now
before
this
house
as
bill
c-103
,
was
given
last
november
29
.
{sent}
the
house
is
well
aware
that
regulatory
efforts
to
protect
the
public
interest
and
preserve
financial
stability
in
the
financial
sector
raise
complex
and
challenging
issues
.
{sent}
as
part
of
this
review
,
i
asked
imasco
for
very
specific
undertakings
.
{sent}
i
am
pleased
to
inform
the
house
that
imasco
has
met
the
government
's
requirement
for
strong
and
clear
undertakings
to
protect
the
public
interest
in
the
spirit
of
bill
c-103
.
{sent}
canada
trustco
's
board
of
directors
and
management
will
be
independent
from
imasco
and
its
affiliates
and
associates
.
{sent}
imasco
will
not
acquire
control
of
any
other
financial
service
corporations
.
{sent}
i
therefore
urge
all
present
and
future
members
of
that
sector
to
make
a
careful
examination
of
bill
c-103
and
the
imasco
commitment
.
{sent}
the
fundamental
importance
of
our
financial
institutions
to
canadians
,
and
to
the
growth
and
stability
of
the
economy
,
will
always
impose
special
obligations
on
those
who
participate
in
this
industry
.
{sent}
i
recognize
also
the
government
's
obligation
to
put
in
place
a
new
framework
for
regulation
of
the
financial
sector
.
{sent}
we
are
doing
just
that
.
{sent}
the
report
of
the
estey
commission
and
the
senate
banking
committee
's
recommendations
on
the
green
paper
proposals
for
financial
institutions
regulatory
policy
will
all
be
part
of
that
process
.
{sent}
i
am
not
prepared
to
force
the
process
to
a
premature
end
.
{sent}
as
other
observers
have
noted
,
the
issues
are
too
fundamental
,
too
complex
and
the
financial
sector
too
important
to
be
decided
in
a
matter
of
days
over
one
specific
case
.
{sent}
before
closing
i
want
to
deal
briefly
with
the
issue
of
corporate
concentration
which
hon.
members
of
the
house
have
raised
in
relation
to
the
imasco-genstar
situation
.
{sent}
corporate
concentration
is
a
very
broad
issue
which
encompasses
many
sectors
of
the
economy
,
not
just
the
financial
sector
.
{sent}
the
debate
on
this
broad
issue
cannot
be
resolved
in
the
context
of
the
financial
industry
alone
and
certainly
not
on
the
basis
of
this
one
particular
situation
.
{sent}
with
the
assistance
of
hon.
members
and
with
the
co-operation
of
imasco
,
the
specific
situation
which
raised
concerns
in
this
house
is
under
careful
control
and
review
.
{sent}
the
public
interest
is
being
protected
and
will
be
in
the
critical
areas
i
have
noted
.
{sent}
i
look
forward
to
receiving
in
future
,
as
i
have
in
the
past
,
the
thoughtful
assistance
of
hon.
members
in
this
important
area
of
government
policy
and
regulatory
reform
.
{sent}
miss
aideen
nicholson
(
trinity
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
thank
the
minister
for
her
courtesy
in
supplying
a
copy
of
her
statement
in
advance
.
{sent}
most
hon.
members
of
this
house
are
concerned
that
a
takeover
by
a
non-financial
institution
of
a
financial
institution
is
not
in
the
best
interests
of
our
country
.
{sent}
that
position
was
stated
by
the
leader
of
my
party
in
this
house
when
he
pointed
out
some
of
the
reasons
why
people
are
generally
concerned
.
{sent}
he
said
at
page
12051
of
hansard
on
april
9
,
and
i
quote
:
{sent}
a
financial
institution
so
controlled
can
block
or
divert
loans
from
competitors
or
to
competitive
allies
.
{sent}
it
can
control
cash
flow
.
{sent}
there
is
the
temptation
for
self-dealing
that
was
only
too
apparent
during
the
crisis
three
years
ago
in
ontario
involving
greymac
and
other
trust
companies
.
{sent}
--
the
interests
of
the
depositors
are
not
necessarily
going
to
be
paramount
where
there
is
a
conflict
of
interest
in
holding
and
where
the
shareholders
in
their
correlated
and
blended
interests
will
take
precedence
over
the
depositors
.
{sent}
these
were
some
of
the
concerns
which
were
addressed
by
the
committee
on
finance
when
it
was
studying
the
green
paper
on
regulation
of
financial
institutions
last
fall
.
{sent}
the
report
of
the
committee
on
finance
included
this
sentence
,
and
i
quote
:
{sent}
the
committee
is
concerned
about
the
increasing
trend
towards
non-financial
ownership
of
financial
institutions
and
feels
that
concentrated
ownership
,
particularly
that
of
large
financial
institutions
,
should
be
limited
.
{sent}
the
canadian
bankers
association
stated
to
the
committee
:
{sent}
--
this
co-mingling
of
non-financial
and
financial
businesses
is
undesirable
.
{sent}
it
would
try
the
confidence
and
trust
that
canadians
place
in
their
financial
system
.
{sent}
the
liberal
members
of
the
finance
committee
issued
a
separate
report
in
which
we
stated
:
"
...
we
do
not
believe
that
financial
activities
and
non-financial
activities
should
be
combined
"
.
{sent}
however
,
the
government
chose
not
to
act
on
that
recommendation
.
{sent}
of
course
,
the
decision
to
allow
that
merger
contributed
directly
to
the
situation
which
we
have
before
us
today
.
{sent}
genstar
corporation
owned
canada
permanent
trust
.
{sent}
it
then
acquired
canada
trust
against
the
finance
committee
's
recommendation
,
giving
it
canada
's
biggest
trust
company
.
{sent}
that
is
the
main
reason
for
imasco
's
interest
in
this
takeover
.
{sent}
the
minister
properly
says
in
her
statement
that
the
government
's
responsibility
is
to
protect
the
public
interest
in
the
financial
sector
.
{sent}
in
effect
,
the
minister
has
now
chosen
to
move
to
protect
that
interest
by
requiring
certain
commitments
of
imasco
rather
than
by
blocking
the
merger
.
{sent}
the
government
really
had
no
choice
in
this
matter
.
{sent}
since
the
genstar
takeover
was
not
blocked
it
would
be
illogical
now
to
block
the
imasco
one
.
{sent}
the
precautions
against
self-dealing
required
by
the
minister
,
and
on
which
she
has
reached
agreement
,
are
reasonable
.
{sent}
there
is
to
be
no
self-dealing
and
no
interlocking
boards
.
{sent}
imasco
undertakes
not
to
acquire
control
of
any
other
financial
service
corporations
.
{sent}
since
imasco
has
a
very
good
reputation
,
this
type
of
agreement
which
used
to
be
called
a
"
gentleman
's
agreement
"
will
probably
work
very
well
in
this
case
.
{sent}
but
we
are
still
left
with
the
fact
that
the
government
has
not
yet
produced
an
ownership
policy
.
{sent}
bill
c-103
,
to
which
the
minister
referred
in
her
statement
,
leaves
a
tremendous
amount
of
power
to
ministerial
discretion
.
{sent}
in
the
public
interest
,
the
minister
can
block
certain
transactions
or
require
divesting
.
{sent}
but
the
conditions
are
not
spelled
out
.
{sent}
bill
c-103
will
have
to
be
amended
.
{sent}
there
will
have
to
be
a
great
many
amendments
made
to
it
in
order
to
put
some
clear
conditions
in
place
.
{sent}
the
end
result
is
that
imasco
has
undertaken
to
acknowledge
the
powers
of
bill
c-103
without
knowing
what
these
powers
will
be
and
without
knowing
what
type
of
divestiture
may
be
required
in
future
legislation
.
{sent}
the
minister
says
that
she
recognizes
the
government
's
obligation
to
put
in
place
a
new
framework
for
regulation
of
the
financial
sector
.
{sent}
however
,
the
government
has
moved
slowly
in
that
respect
.
{sent}
i
would
remind
the
house
that
prior
to
1984
the
previous
minister
of
state
for
finance
put
in
place
a
consultation
system
on
which
the
present
minister
poured
scorn
when
she
took
office
.
{sent}
thus
she
decided
to
rediscover
the
wheel
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
to
interrupt
the
hon.
member
but
her
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
each
party
had
seven
minutes
in
which
to
reply
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
sure
hon.
members
would
be
prepared
to
grant
to
the
hon.
member
for
trinity
(
miss
nicholson
)
whatever
time
is
necessary
for
her
to
complete
her
response
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
it
agreed
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
for
trinity
(
miss
nicholson
)
.
{sent}
i
will
finish
my
remarks
quickly
.
{sent}
while
the
minister
points
out
risks
in
forcing
the
process
to
a
premature
end
,
i
do
not
think
this
is
the
risk
we
are
facing
.
{sent}
the
risk
is
in
not
acting
firmly
enough
since
the
rate
of
takeovers
has
been
escalating
in
recent
years
.
{sent}
indeed
,
as
one
of
the
minister
's
own
colleagues
said
,
we
are
faced
with
a
situation
of
trying
to
unscramble
eggs
or
trying
to
get
the
toothpaste
back
into
the
tube
.
{sent}
it
is
important
to
get
bill
c-103
in
place
,
with
some
amendments
.
{sent}
it
is
also
important
to
move
on
establishing
a
clear
ownership
policy
,
not
only
so
that
imasco
will
know
where
it
is
at
but
so
that
all
canadians
will
know
where
they
stand
.
{sent}
i
particularly
wish
to
emphasize
that
legislation
which
relies
so
much
on
ministerial
discretion
will
need
to
be
replaced
by
legislation
with
clear
standards
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
for
kamloops
--
shuswap
(
mr.
riis
)
.
{sent}
they
want
to
own
their
own
major
financial
institution
,
to
buy
the
money
power
against
the
security
of
the
depositors
,
and
,
really
,
the
people
of
canada
.
{sent}
today
,
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
(
mrs.
mcdougall
)
has
announced
the
winner
of
that
contest
.
{sent}
it
is
,
of
course
,
the
large
conglomerates
which
are
now
being
given
the
go-ahead
to
purchase
their
own
bank
.
{sent}
they
are
being
given
the
go-ahead
to
go
out
and
purchase
their
own
trust
company
.
{sent}
when
the
minister
was
forced
to
make
a
decision
between
the
giant
corporation
,
imasco
,
and
the
security
of
the
depositors
of
canada
trust
,
she
said
she
would
give
the
benefit
of
the
doubt
to
imasco
.
{sent}
it
is
a
serious
situation
which
occurred
in
the
last
few
moments
.
{sent}
it
was
the
unanimous
decision
of
the
finance
committee
,
not
on
one
occasion
but
on
two
,
after
months
of
deliberation
and
thought
,
to
recommend
that
the
minister
not
approve
the
go-ahead
of
this
takeover
.
{sent}
she
has
ignored
that
advice
.
{sent}
she
has
disregarded
it
completely
.
{sent}
she
has
shown
no
respect
for
the
work
,
advice
and
thought
which
every
single
member
of
the
finance
committee
put
into
making
that
recommendation
.
{sent}
yesterday
in
the
house
of
commons
the
opportunity
was
provided
to
any
member
to
speak
in
favour
of
the
action
which
the
minister
has
just
taken
.
{sent}
not
one
single
member
rose
to
speak
in
its
favour
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
the
best
information
we
have
is
that
every
member
of
parliament
feels
that
the
decision
which
the
minister
took
today
is
wrong
.
{sent}
through
their
elected
representatives
they
have
said
that
this
is
not
in
the
best
interests
of
canada
.
{sent}
in
effect
,
they
have
said
that
this
is
not
in
the
best
interests
of
the
canadian
economy
.
{sent}
the
minister
has
chosen
to
ignore
that
advice
.
{sent}
presumably
this
has
been
done
in
the
context
of
the
new
parliamentary
reform
.
{sent}
back-benchers
and
committees
were
to
be
given
more
consideration
.
{sent}
presumably
more
attention
was
to
be
given
to
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
has
now
indicated
that
she
will
ignore
that
advice
,
even
when
it
is
unanimous
,
time
after
time
.
{sent}
i
suspect
that
the
chairman
of
the
finance
committee
,
who
has
gone
on
record
very
clearly
along
with
the
rest
of
his
colleagues
,
will
have
virtually
no
choice
but
to
resign
as
chairman
of
that
committee
.
{sent}
there
have
been
seven
months
of
deliberations
and
literally
dozens
and
dozens
of
experts
have
appeared
before
the
committee
.
{sent}
every
one
of
the
experts
has
said
the
same
thing
,
with
the
exception
of
a
handful
of
people
and
that
handful
of
people
are
those
representatives
of
the
big
seven
families
that
control
more
than
50
per
cent
of
the
toronto
stock
exchange
.
{sent}
they
like
this
decision
.
{sent}
what
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
has
said
to
justify
her
actions
is
unbelievable
.
{sent}
she
has
said
that
imasco
promises
that
there
will
be
no
self-dealing
.
{sent}
well
,
big
bloody
deal
.
{sent}
imasco
is
saying
that
it
will
do
what
we
expect
every
single
corporation
to
do
by
law
.
{sent}
on
monday
night
,
the
finance
committee
will
be
exposing
a
number
of
those
actions
that
have
not
been
exposed
to
date
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
went
on
to
say
that
imasco
will
not
acquire
control
of
any
other
financial
service
corporation
.
{sent}
it
now
owns
a
financial
institution
that
brags
in
full-page
advertisements
in
canada
's
major
newspapers
that
it
is
larger
than
some
of
the
big
banks
.
{sent}
imasco
promises
that
it
will
not
buy
another
major
trust
company
or
financial
institution
.
{sent}
big
deal
.
{sent}
the
minister
went
on
to
say
that
bill
c-103
will
include
the
power
to
roll
back
this
takeover
.
{sent}
it
is
a
little
late
,
is
it
not
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
who
believes
that
we
are
going
to
ask
this
company
to
change
its
mind
after
the
takeover
has
occurred
and
the
shares
have
been
acquired
,
something
which
i
understand
was
completed
today
?
{sent}
one
could
be
cynical
and
say
that
the
major
political
contributions
imasco
made
to
the
conservative
party
in
1984
have
now
paid
off
.
{sent}
one
could
say
that
imasco
is
now
seeing
the
fruits
of
those
thousands
and
thousands
of
dollars
of
campaign
contributions
.
{sent}
that
is
not
the
way
decision
making
should
take
place
in
canada
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
should
have
listened
to
the
unanimous
voice
of
the
finance
committee
after
its
deliberations
.
{sent}
she
should
have
listened
to
the
unanimous
voice
of
the
house
of
commons
after
its
deliberations
.
{sent}
she
should
have
listened
to
the
people
with
financial
expertise
who
came
before
the
standing
committee
on
finance
,
trade
and
economic
affairs
to
tell
us
not
to
do
this
.
{sent}
she
should
have
listened
to
the
superintendent
of
insurance
who
said
that
he
could
not
find
any
compelling
reason
to
show
that
this
takeover
would
be
in
the
best
interests
of
canada
.
{sent}
to
whom
did
the
minister
listen
?
{sent}
where
did
she
get
her
advice
?
{sent}
i
can
only
say
now
that
members
of
the
finance
committee
,
and
particularly
those
who
belong
to
the
government
party
,
are
going
to
have
to
do
some
soul
searching
.
{sent}
after
all
,
they
worked
hard
,
and
i
will
give
them
credit
for
this
,
to
try
to
bring
sanity
into
this
decision-making
process
.
{sent}
the
minister
has
ignored
them
.
{sent}
it
is
a
very
,
very
sad
day
for
canada
and
for
canadians
.
{sent}
privilege
--
mr.
boudria
{sent}
privilege
{sent}
allegation
of
patronage
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
wish
to
rise
on
a
question
of
privilege
.
{sent}
those
motives
that
have
been
imputed
are
totally
false
,
as
you
of
course
know
,
and
as
i
am
sure
the
hon.
member
knows
deep
down
in
his
heart
.
{sent}
i
would
ask
that
the
statement
be
withdrawn
and
,
in
the
absence
of
that
,
i
would
wish
to
move
the
necessary
motion
to
which
i
referred
a
while
ago
.
{sent}
mr.
dick
:
mr.
speaker
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
for
lanark
--
renfrew-carleton
(
mr.
dick
)
will
be
given
his
opportunity
,
but
i
just
want
to
say
something
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
(
mr.
boudria
)
has
just
made
reference
to
something
which
did
not
arise
from
the
debate
occurring
at
this
particular
time
.
{sent}
if
he
does
feel
that
he
has
a
prima
facie
case
of
privilege
,
then
he
should
give
the
proper
notice
and
it
should
be
dealt
with
tomorrow
.
{sent}
i
am
afraid
that
i
cannot
accept
it
at
this
time
and
therefore
we
should
go
on
to
orders
of
the
day
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
on
that
same
question
of
privilege
,
the
house
interrupted
its
normal
business
to
go
to
a
statement
by
a
minister
by
unanimous
agreement
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
(
mr.
boudria
)
wanted
to
raise
this
point
at
that
time
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
hope
that
the
hon.
member
will
give
notice
in
writing
so
that
we
can
go
ahead
and
deal
with
it
accordingly
.
{sent}
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
wish
to
inform
the
house
that
because
of
the
ministerial
statement
and
pursuant
to
order
made
earlier
this
day
,
this
sitting
will
be
extended
by
25
minutes
.
{sent}
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relations
act
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relations
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
how
could
i
forget
that
?
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
inadvertently
you
were
quite
correct
.
{sent}
the
ottawa
area
is
part
of
my
riding
.
{sent}
i
represent
the
counties
of
glengarry
,
prescott
and
russell
as
well
as
that
part
of
ottawa-carleton
called
the
township
of
cumberland
.
{sent}
unbeknownst
to
you
,
mr.
speaker
,
you
were
quite
correct
in
calling
me
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
,
as
i
do
represent
at
least
a
small
part
of
the
ottawa-carleton
region
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
we
're
very
proud
of
you
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
thank
you
.
{sent}
i
am
pleased
to
participate
in
this
debate
on
bill
c-45
this
afternoon
.
{sent}
the
board
decided
in
its
wisdom
that
the
employees
of
the
house
had
collective
rights
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
of
course
that
has
been
dragged
through
various
steps
of
the
court
process
.
{sent}
as
far
as
i
know
,
on
every
occasion
the
courts
and
the
board
dealt
with
this
topic
,
adjudication
has
always
been
on
the
side
of
the
employees
.
{sent}
negotiations
are
scheduled
to
proceed
on
monday
,
april
21
or
some
four
days
from
now
.
{sent}
why
are
we
attempting
to
sneak
through
the
legislation
at
this
time
?
{sent}
why
do
we
want
to
do
it
now
?
{sent}
why
can
we
not
wait
until
the
process
is
finished
and
final
judgments
come
down
on
the
issue
?
{sent}
why
would
hon.
members
of
the
house
want
to
pass
this
piece
of
legislation
now
?
{sent}
what
is
the
need
to
pass
it
now
?
{sent}
are
we
collectively
afraid
of
what
eventually
will
come
out
of
the
court
decision
?
{sent}
if
that
is
not
the
case
,
and
since
we
have
not
had
such
legislation
since
1867
,
why
do
we
need
to
pass
it
before
next
monday
at
which
time
the
negotiations
will
get
under
way
?
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
hamilton
east
(
ms.
copps
)
moved
a
very
appropriate
amendment
to
delay
the
bill
for
six
months
.
{sent}
at
that
time
we
did
not
know
some
of
the
things
we
know
now
.
{sent}
however
,
she
was
right
.
{sent}
we
had
to
delay
discussion
on
the
bill
for
six
months
in
order
to
provide
the
time
required
for
the
process
which
i
described
just
a
few
moments
ago
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
why
do
the
employees
of
the
house
want
a
union
?
{sent}
right
now
they
are
not
allowed
to
do
that
.
{sent}
and
why
?
{sent}
today
,
this
balance
no
longer
exists
.
{sent}
and
i
think
it
is
this
imbalance
which
has
created
a
situation
where
morale
among
house
employees
is
extremely
low
.
{sent}
parliamentary
employees
feel
totally
frustrated
because
they
have
no
way
of
defending
their
individual
and
collective
rights
.
{sent}
i
listened
carefully
to
the
speech
made
by
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg-north
,
when
he
was
describing
the
cases
of
certain
parliamentary
employees
,
with
their
grievances
and
their
problems
.
{sent}
in
each
case
,
i
could
recognize
who
the
person
was
.
{sent}
i
could
even
name
them
each
and
every
one
of
them
.
{sent}
in
many
cases
,
i
could
even
give
the
names
of
family
members
,
because
i
know
nearly
all
of
them
.
{sent}
however
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
not
want
any
employer
to
emulate
the
procedures
existing
today
on
parliament
hill
.
{sent}
i
certainly
would
not
want
anyone
to
use
our
procedures
as
a
model
.
{sent}
the
way
we
treat
our
employees
should
be
an
example
to
everyone
else
in
the
public
and
private
sectors
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
not
an
example
of
which
we
can
be
proud
.
{sent}
why
is
that
so
?
{sent}
it
is
so
because
principally
we
as
members
collectively
fear
,
whether
or
not
we
admit
it
,
unions
on
parliament
hill
.
{sent}
perhaps
there
is
a
fear
that
the
day
will
come
when
one
of
us
will
have
to
cross
a
picket
line
in
order
to
come
to
the
chamber
and
do
his
job
on
behalf
of
our
constituents
.
{sent}
perhaps
it
is
a
morbid
fear
of
the
picket
line
which
has
stopped
us
from
granting
our
employees
collective
rights
.
{sent}
if
that
is
so
,
is
it
a
good
enough
reason
to
deny
someone
their
rights
?
{sent}
potentially
we
could
put
ourselves
in
a
situation
which
could
be
viewed
or
seen
as
embarrassing
.
{sent}
if
that
is
our
reason
for
failing
to
give
our
employees
their
rights
,
it
is
a
pretty
poor
reason
indeed
.
{sent}
it
is
not
one
we
would
permit
anyone
else
to
use
.
{sent}
if
we
would
not
permit
anyone
else
to
use
the
same
criteria
,
why
are
we
using
them
ourselves
?
{sent}
it
is
my
hope
that
in
a
very
few
days
we
will
see
the
final
stages
of
that
process
in
the
courts
that
will
give
employees
of
this
house
the
same
rights
and
privileges
as
other
canadians
have
.
{sent}
finally
,
i
hope
the
day
will
come
when
we
will
have
a
system
that
can
be
used
as
an
example
,
a
system
of
which
we
can
be
proud
.
{sent}
let
us
hope
we
can
go
to
private
enterprise
or
even
other
public
sectors
,
the
provinces
,
and
tell
them
about
our
way
,
that
we
look
after
the
people
who
work
for
us
.
{sent}
that
does
not
mean
you
hire
five
people
to
do
the
job
of
two
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
that
does
not
mean
you
let
everybody
go
home
at
noon
.
{sent}
that
is
not
what
the
employees
are
asking
for
.
{sent}
they
become
friends
of
all
of
us
and
they
consider
members
of
this
house
who
are
collectively
,
and
i
suppose
individually
,
their
bosses
and
representatives
.
{sent}
they
have
a
special
dedication
.
{sent}
how
many
times
do
we
see
employees
on
the
hill
working
well
beyond
the
call
of
duty
?
{sent}
i
know
what
time
they
start
.
{sent}
many
years
ago
i
had
the
same
working
hours
as
some
of
them
.
{sent}
i
know
they
come
way
ahead
of
working
hours
and
are
here
long
after
,
in
many
cases
without
getting
overtime
or
any
other
benefit
.
{sent}
they
are
dedicated
.
{sent}
they
do
a
good
job
for
each
and
every
one
of
us
,
and
they
deserve
to
be
treated
properly
by
us
all
collectively
and
,
needless
to
say
,
by
all
of
us
individually
as
well
.
{sent}
it
is
my
hope
that
we
will
delay
this
bill
at
least
for
a
little
while
.
{sent}
there
is
no
need
to
deal
with
it
now
.
{sent}
let
the
process
take
care
of
itself
.
{sent}
in
my
view
,
within
a
very
few
days
it
will
be
determined
that
the
rights
of
these
employees
go
far
beyond
what
is
in
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
i
hope
the
process
will
determine
that
their
rights
are
the
same
as
those
of
all
public
servants
and
all
other
canadians
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
and
comments
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
lévis
(
mr.
fontaine
)
.
{sent}
at
the
time
his
government
did
not
even
see
fit
to
act
upon
the
kind
of
recommendations
and
representations
he
is
making
today
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
not
quite
sure
i
understand
the
meaning
of
the
hon.
member
's
question
.
{sent}
i
do
not
quite
follow
the
logic
of
what
the
hon.
member
is
telling
us
.
{sent}
he
should
know
that
not
very
long
ago
the
canadian
labour
commission
ruled
on
this
case
and
that
the
matter
is
now
before
the
courts
.
{sent}
it
was
not
the
case
a
number
of
years
ago
,
but
it
is
now
.
{sent}
mr.
althouse
:
the
hon.
member
has
had
experience
as
an
employee
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
would
he
comment
on
the
progress
which
employees
of
the
hill
made
,
during
his
sojourn
in
toronto
as
an
m.p.p.
,
toward
organizing
into
an
association
?
{sent}
as
the
member
said
,
they
have
applied
to
the
canada
labour
relations
board
and
seem
to
be
making
slow
but
positive
progress
in
that
direction
.
{sent}
could
the
member
comment
on
some
of
the
advantages
employees
would
have
under
the
canada
labour
code
as
opposed
to
those
they
would
have
under
bill
c-45
?
{sent}
the
hon.
member
and
the
member
for
winnipeg
north
(
mr.
orlikow
)
gave
examples
of
incidents
involving
people
working
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
would
it
be
possible
for
some
of
those
situations
to
be
dealt
with
under
the
provisions
of
bill
c-45
,
or
would
the
powers
of
the
organization
to
represent
them
be
somewhat
limited
under
this
bill
?
{sent}
they
would
not
,
however
,
have
identical
benefits
,
which
is
what
i
believe
the
member
wants
me
to
point
out
.
{sent}
if
anyone
is
making
the
case
that
this
bill
offers
many
benefits
similar
to
those
offered
by
the
canada
labour
code
,
one
must
ask
why
we
are
bothering
with
the
bill
at
all
.
{sent}
i
think
i
am
being
generous
in
using
the
words
"
not
much
"
.
{sent}
the
process
which
now
exists
is
more
of
a
hit-and-miss
one
.
{sent}
in
my
view
,
house
employees
should
be
accorded
the
right
to
strike
,
although
not
in
all
cases
.
{sent}
obviously
,
some
people
must
be
designated
"
essential
"
.
{sent}
most
of
the
people
in
the
house
at
the
present
time
would
have
to
be
so
designated
.
{sent}
however
,
i
would
argue
that
we
do
not
need
a
full
complement
of
busboys
so
designated
.
{sent}
i
can
relate
to
that
job
very
easily
because
i
happen
to
have
done
it
in
1966
.
{sent}
they
may
be
essential
to
achieving
a
certain
level
of
comfort
for
the
parliamentarians
,
but
that
is
not
the
same
as
being
essential
for
the
functioning
of
parliament
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
you
have
recognized
already
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
a
large
number
of
our
employees
should
be
given
full
bargaining
rights
.
{sent}
at
this
point
we
do
not
even
know
whether
they
want
all
of
these
rights
,
and
that
is
for
them
to
decide
collectively
.
{sent}
however
,
apart
from
those
people
who
would
necessarily
be
designated
essential
,
the
rest
of
them
should
be
afforded
the
full
rights
which
they
would
receive
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
mr.
althouse
:
the
member
has
served
for
some
time
in
the
provincial
parliament
at
queen
's
park
in
toronto
where
employees
do
have
some
bargaining
rights
.
{sent}
did
he
experience
any
problems
in
carrying
out
his
duties
as
a
member
of
the
provincial
parliament
because
employees
at
queen
's
park
have
more
bargaining
rights
than
they
have
here
in
ottawa
?
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
mr.
speaker
,
not
all
of
them
do
.
{sent}
it
is
pretty
confusing
to
try
to
compare
the
two
situations
.
{sent}
the
legislative
assembly
building
at
queen
's
park
is
partially
under
the
jurisdiction
of
the
speaker
of
the
assembly
and
partly
under
the
jurisdiction
of
the
minister
of
government
services
.
{sent}
it
would
be
rather
difficult
to
draw
a
parallel
between
the
two
legislatures
.
{sent}
there
are
a
large
number
of
people
in
the
building
who
are
employees
of
other
government
departments
or
agencies
,
which
adds
to
the
confusion
.
{sent}
i
know
that
the
employees
of
the
ndp
caucus
at
queen
's
park
have
a
method
of
airing
their
grievances
.
{sent}
i
am
not
sure
whether
that
is
a
formal
union
,
or
only
an
association
of
employees
.
{sent}
not
having
been
a
member
of
that
particular
caucus
,
i
did
not
take
much
time
to
inquire
about
how
it
operates
.
{sent}
however
,
there
are
a
large
number
of
staff
members
in
the
legislative
assembly
building
at
queen
's
park
who
are
unionized
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
there
are
a
number
of
employees
on
the
hill
in
that
situation
as
well
.
{sent}
people
working
outside
of
the
buildings
,
but
within
the
precincts
of
parliament
hill
,
are
unionized
.
{sent}
they
have
not
turned
the
world
upside
down
because
of
it
,
nor
did
they
at
queen
's
park
.
{sent}
in
direct
response
to
the
member
's
question
,
i
never
perceived
that
to
be
a
problem
while
i
was
at
queen
's
park
.
{sent}
mr.
vic
althouse
(
humboldt
--
lake
centre
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
to
join
the
debate
on
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
our
party
has
been
opposing
the
move
by
the
govenment
to
change
the
law
as
it
applies
to
the
collective
bargaining
rights
of
people
who
work
on
parliament
hill
.
{sent}
for
that
reason
it
is
probably
suitable
that
this
particular
debate
occurs
on
equality
day
.
{sent}
it
is
a
time
when
we
are
trying
to
extend
rights
of
canadian
citizens
equally
to
all
.
{sent}
prior
to
coming
to
parliament
i
was
a
representative
of
one
group
which
was
largely
ignored
when
it
comes
to
legislation
permitting
them
to
organize
,
and
that
is
,
the
farming
sector
.
{sent}
i
have
always
been
quite
interested
in
the
application
of
these
rights
on
an
equitable
basis
to
all
sectors
of
our
society
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
unfortunate
in
that
it
comes
at
a
time
when
many
of
the
employees
on
the
hill
had
gotten
quite
a
way
ahead
through
the
long
process
of
organizing
themselves
.
{sent}
they
had
even
succeeded
several
months
ago
in
obtaining
the
right
to
begin
certification
procedures
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
there
are
five
or
six
bargaining
units
here
on
the
hill
who
are
well
on
the
way
to
getting
into
the
negotiating
process
and
moving
towards
having
the
first
collective
bargaining
agreement
for
those
particular
groups
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
this
process
is
an
ongoing
one
,
and
it
is
always
a
slow
process
.
{sent}
it
takes
several
years
to
go
through
all
the
organizational
and
legal
and
negotiating
procedures
to
get
a
first
contract
.
{sent}
some
first
contracts
take
years
and
years
and
years
,
but
they
do
eventually
happen
.
{sent}
it
is
extremely
unfortunate
that
in
the
midst
of
these
negotiations
,
which
followed
the
organizational
pursuit
and
the
legal
challenges
that
have
gone
on
,
the
government
should
put
on
the
order
paper
before
the
house
of
commons
bill
c-45
,
which
is
a
bill
that
has
the
effect
of
starting
the
process
all
over
again
.
{sent}
the
rights
and
procedures
they
will
follow
under
bill
c-45
are
such
that
they
will
gain
fewer
rather
than
more
rights
than
what
they
would
have
under
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
it
being
equality
day
--
and
i
think
every
day
in
canada
should
be
equality
day
--
we
should
,
as
a
general
principle
,
treat
all
of
our
citizens
in
the
same
manner
.
{sent}
i
think
a
lot
of
canadians
have
trouble
with
that
concept
,
and
that
is
why
i
think
they
would
have
trouble
with
bill
c-45
if
they
read
it
and
understood
it
better
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
that
is
some
indication
that
the
government
sees
it
as
being
not
particularly
necessary
and
it
is
only
bringing
it
forward
to
interfere
with
the
bargaining
process
that
is
now
in
place
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
the
only
reason
it
was
put
before
the
house
today
was
because
it
did
not
have
any
other
pressing
legislation
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
that
was
the
reason
it
was
brought
forward
.
{sent}
i
realize
that
sometimes
governments
do
get
to
the
point
where
their
agenda
is
so
clear
they
only
bring
in
legislation
that
is
peripheral
to
the
needs
of
canadians
.
{sent}
i
would
assume
that
today
,
on
a
thursday
,
is
the
kind
of
day
that
we
happen
to
have
hit
.
{sent}
there
has
been
some
feeling
left
in
the
country
,
and
i
think
there
is
a
fair
bit
of
feeling
which
exists
on
the
government
side
of
the
house
,
that
some
of
these
jobs
that
are
performed
around
parliament
hill
fall
into
the
area
of
being
designated
as
essential
services
.
{sent}
it
is
an
important
service
and
the
job
they
do
is
important
.
{sent}
the
job
that
any
one
of
us
does
as
mp
is
also
relatively
important
,
but
it
is
not
essential
.
{sent}
we
have
had
,
since
this
parliament
began
,
two
resignations
from
the
house
.
{sent}
the
house
functions
just
as
well
without
those
two
,
albeit
both
were
extremely
good
and
effective
members
,
but
the
house
is
still
functioning
since
they
have
left
.
{sent}
the
parliament
in
australia
has
similar
legislation
and
it
has
no
problem
with
it
.
{sent}
i
fail
to
understand
how
the
argument
can
be
made
that
canada
could
not
function
with
this
kind
of
labour
legislation
.
{sent}
i
was
here
when
the
bells
rang
in
this
parliament
for
14
or
15
days
.
{sent}
it
was
not
a
disaster
and
the
country
still
functioned
.
{sent}
all
of
the
departments
of
government
still
did
their
job
.
{sent}
it
did
not
precipitate
a
crisis
,
and
we
were
out
for
15
days
.
{sent}
they
include
the
people
who
work
at
the
post
office
,
and
occasionally
those
workers
do
strike
,
and
yet
the
country
functions
.
{sent}
if
the
strike
weapon
were
available
to
parliament
hill
employees
i
think
it
would
be
used
very
seldom
.
{sent}
we
just
had
the
opportunity
to
hear
from
a
former
hill
employee
recounting
some
of
his
experiences
and
some
of
the
attitudes
and
opinions
of
people
around
the
hill
.
{sent}
when
you
listen
to
hill
employees
,
it
seems
most
of
the
problems
and
grievances
that
build
up
are
due
to
the
fact
that
there
is
no
proper
procedure
for
those
employees
to
deal
with
their
grievances
.
{sent}
they
have
no
place
to
go
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
have
such
instances
as
the
following
one
.
{sent}
an
older
worker
had
hurt
her
back
and
was
sent
home
.
{sent}
she
was
receiving
benefits
.
{sent}
her
doctor
told
her
he
thought
her
back
was
well
enough
for
her
to
go
back
to
work
,
which
meant
that
her
benefits
would
cease
.
{sent}
when
she
arrived
at
work
here
on
the
hill
she
was
told
that
her
employers
did
not
think
she
was
fit
to
work
and
they
would
not
pay
her
.
{sent}
she
is
no
longer
eligible
for
benefits
,
no
longer
able
to
work
,
and
she
has
no
place
else
to
go
.
{sent}
there
is
no
grievance
procedure
except
for
some
member
of
parliament
trying
to
catch
the
speaker
's
attention
and
having
him
put
some
pressure
on
the
people
concerned
.
{sent}
with
an
organization
they
will
have
a
grievance
procedure
.
{sent}
they
can
use
the
combined
weight
of
all
employees
to
argue
for
a
particular
person
.
{sent}
we
know
from
listening
to
employees
that
there
are
discrepancies
in
the
hiring
practices
and
,
because
there
is
no
grievance
procedure
,
those
discrepancies
continue
.
{sent}
we
can
then
avoid
the
kind
of
things
we
have
had
brought
to
our
attention
,
such
as
the
case
of
a
technician
being
hired
for
a
position
at
below
the
advertised
salary
level
.
{sent}
he
worked
for
a
year
and
a
half
to
reach
that
salary
level
and
finally
did
so
.
{sent}
these
kinds
of
discrepancies
bother
our
employees
.
{sent}
i
think
they
bother
all
of
us
when
we
realize
there
is
inequitable
treatment
with
no
visible
reason
for
it
.
{sent}
it
makes
little
sense
for
us
to
be
imposing
more
legislation
regarding
hiring
practices
and
organizational
structure
for
employees
of
parliament
in
the
form
of
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
we
have
seen
the
canada
labour
code
being
applied
,
and
much
effort
has
gone
into
organizing
over
the
last
three
or
four
years
.
{sent}
there
have
been
court
appeals
.
{sent}
the
legislative
route
is
being
followed
,
slowly
but
it
is
still
being
followed
.
{sent}
it
seems
extremely
unjust
for
us
,
particularly
on
equality
day
,
to
be
imposing
this
much
reduced
form
of
rights
on
our
employees
when
they
are
attempting
to
organize
under
the
provisions
of
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
schellenberg
)
:
questions
or
comments
.
{sent}
it
is
also
interesting
that
the
government
had
five
months
to
move
on
this
legislation
and
it
would
have
done
so
earlier
if
it
had
believed
it
was
serious
legislation
.
{sent}
that
is
rather
ironic
because
we
are
now
in
a
situation
where
the
government
has
not
treated
its
own
legislation
seriously
.
{sent}
can
you
imagine
introducing
legislation
in
the
late
fall
of
last
year
,
bringing
it
forward
for
one
or
two
days'
debate
,
and
then
postponing
further
debate
for
a
full
four
months
?
{sent}
yet
that
is
what
has
happened
.
{sent}
neither
has
the
government
been
serious
in
its
negotiations
with
its
employees
on
the
hill
.
{sent}
it
has
used
the
courts
to
delay
negotiating
.
{sent}
yet
the
government
has
not
shown
the
credibility
involved
in
sitting
down
with
its
own
workers
to
find
out
what
kind
of
legislation
would
be
acceptable
.
{sent}
there
is
no
question
of
the
government
's
right
to
introduce
legislation
which
it
thinks
is
necessary
.
{sent}
there
is
no
question
that
the
government
has
a
right
to
introduce
its
own
legislation
,
based
on
a
court
decision
,
to
change
a
process
.
{sent}
what
i
find
ironic
is
that
the
government
has
spent
so
much
time
in
doing
nothing
that
i
wonder
if
the
hon.
member
would
care
to
communicate
whether
he
feels
the
government
is
really
negotiating
in
bad
faith
with
its
employees
.
{sent}
mr.
althouse
:
mr.
speaker
,
on
the
face
of
it
,
it
does
seem
the
government
is
not
serious
about
negotiating
.
{sent}
this
move
to
introduce
bill
c-45
was
a
legislative
effort
to
back
up
the
legal
efforts
in
the
courts
.
{sent}
for
that
reason
it
probably
would
go
some
way
to
explaining
why
this
legislation
comes
forward
in
fits
and
starts
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
somehow
being
used
as
part
of
the
varied
arsenal
of
the
government
in
its
fight
against
the
application
by
five
or
six
units
to
organize
and
get
their
first
contract
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
listened
with
some
attention
to
the
hon.
member
's
remarks
.
{sent}
he
,
like
his
colleagues
in
the
ndp
,
has
a
definition
of
a
designated
employee
.
{sent}
i
want
to
know
exactly
where
he
stands
on
the
question
of
essential
employees
.
{sent}
we
could
change
all
that
and
say
:
"
the
safety
or
security
of
parliament
"
.
{sent}
would
he
cross
that
picket
line
?
{sent}
i
would
like
to
know
the
answer
to
that
from
his
party
.
{sent}
mr.
althouse
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
been
involved
in
a
few
settlements
of
labour
agreements
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
on
whose
side
?
{sent}
mr.
althouse
:
on
the
management
side
.
{sent}
the
question
of
whether
or
not
i
would
cross
a
picket
line
would
depend
really
on
whether
the
legislation
we
are
dealing
with
is
of
a
very
serious
and
necessary
nature
,
and
on
the
kind
of
picketing
that
is
going
on
.
{sent}
a
lot
of
the
picketing
on
the
hill
,
i
foresee
,
will
not
be
of
a
particularly
crucial
nature
to
the
functioning
of
this
house
and
this
chamber
.
{sent}
when
it
is
a
question
of
serving
my
constituents
and
there
is
no
other
way
of
doing
that
but
by
being
in
the
house
,
then
i
suppose
i
would
have
no
choice
but
to
cross
the
picket
line
.
{sent}
i
would
attempt
to
explain
my
reason
to
the
picketers
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
that
once
they
understood
the
reason
,
they
would
agree
that
the
parliamentary
function
is
also
necessary
.
{sent}
i
have
had
this
happen
on
a
number
of
occasions
and
usually
such
picketers
are
quite
in
accord
with
what
you
are
doing
once
they
understand
why
you
are
doing
it
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
i
appreciate
the
hon.
member
's
comments
and
point
of
view
because
i
know
how
seriously
he
feels
about
the
subject
.
{sent}
the
picket
lines
,
as
i
understand
,
were
originally
organized
for
information
purposes
.
{sent}
they
were
originally
thought
up
to
inform
the
public
that
there
was
a
conflict
between
the
employee
and
the
employers
,
between
the
democratic
process
and
sometimes
the
aristocratic
owners
of
an
enterprise
.
{sent}
that
is
a
serious
position
and
one
which
i
respect
,
although
one
i
do
not
necessarily
share
.
{sent}
mr.
althouse
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
i
tried
to
make
it
fairly
clear
in
my
first
answer
that
both
would
be
at
work
.
{sent}
the
legislation
which
is
before
the
house
rarely
,
but
sometimes
,
does
affect
my
constituents
very
clearly
.
{sent}
on
those
occasions
i
would
feel
it
would
be
my
responsibility
and
,
indeed
,
my
duty
to
be
in
the
house
looking
after
them
.
{sent}
i
will
reiterate
something
i
said
in
my
speech
.
{sent}
it
is
not
very
often
that
this
house
has
that
kind
of
crucial
legislation
before
it
.
{sent}
i
refer
again
to
the
15
days
when
we
listened
to
the
bells
and
nothing
fell
apart
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
time
for
questions
and
comments
has
now
terminated
.
{sent}
both
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
and
the
national
association
of
broadast
employees
and
technicians
are
finding
considerable
difficulty
with
this
proposal
.
{sent}
we
must
consider
that
this
bill
will
enshrine
in
law
an
employee
employer
relationship
which
does
not
meet
with
the
employees'
approval
.
{sent}
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
has
stated
to
employee
representatives
that
the
government
is
willing
to
give
parliamentary
employees
the
same
rights
enjoyed
by
federal
public
servants
.
{sent}
however
,
the
legislation
before
us
does
not
include
one
particular
right
enjoyed
by
federal
public
servants
,
and
that
is
,
the
right
to
strike
.
{sent}
we
might
all
consider
that
there
are
good
reasons
why
employees
on
the
hill
should
not
have
the
right
to
strike
.
{sent}
but
if
that
tool
is
removed
from
them
,
surely
they
must
be
compensated
by
having
an
extremely
effective
,
strong
and
binding
arbitration
procedure
in
its
place
.
{sent}
that
is
not
offered
by
bill
c-45
.
{sent}
the
history
is
that
on
november
4
,
1985
,
the
canada
labour
relations
board
announced
its
decision
to
certify
four
bargaining
units
in
the
house
of
commons
and
the
library
of
parliament
.
{sent}
i
believe
that
since
that
time
an
additional
unit
has
been
certified
.
{sent}
however
,
the
house
of
commons
,
senate
and
library
of
parliament
administration
appealed
the
clrb
's
decision
to
the
federal
court
.
{sent}
the
appeal
was
heard
on
january
20
and
january
21
,
1986
,
and
a
decision
is
expected
within
the
next
few
days
.
{sent}
in
the
interim
,
the
request
by
the
house
of
commons
for
a
stay
allowing
the
employer
to
avoid
participating
in
the
negotiations
process
was
rejected
by
the
court
.
{sent}
their
appeal
concerning
the
canada
labour
relations
board
is
still
before
the
courts
.
{sent}
surely
it
would
make
more
sense
to
have
the
court
decision
first
and
then
look
again
at
what
kind
of
legislation
is
needed
.
{sent}
i
certainly
have
a
great
deal
of
difficulty
in
understanding
why
we
are
proceeding
with
this
legislation
when
the
employees
have
said
that
it
is
not
what
they
want
.
{sent}
surely
,
good
employer-employee
relations
require
making
a
much
more
serious
effort
to
find
out
what
it
is
the
employees
want
and
then
proceed
on
that
basis
.
{sent}
two
clauses
in
bill
c-45
,
clause
5(3)
and
clause
55(2)
,
are
being
objected
to
.
{sent}
these
two
clauses
would
prohibit
unions
from
referring
to
arbitration
matters
such
as
job
classification
,
appointment
,
appraisal
,
promotion
,
demotion
,
transfer
,
lay-off
and
release
of
employees
.
{sent}
these
are
matters
which
are
really
central
to
working
conditions
.
{sent}
i
have
great
difficulty
in
understanding
why
they
should
be
excluded
from
arbitration
.
{sent}
federal
public
servants
under
the
public
service
staff
relations
board
also
face
limitations
as
to
what
can
and
cannot
be
taken
to
arbitration
.
{sent}
however
,
the
public
service
employment
act
also
gives
federal
public
servants
rights
with
regard
to
some
of
these
issues
,
rights
which
are
not
contained
in
the
bill
before
us
.
{sent}
that
is
not
accurate
.
{sent}
under
the
canada
labour
code
,
health
and
safety
rights
are
already
allowed
.
{sent}
this
is
so
as
a
result
of
bill
c-24
,
as
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
,
points
out
.
{sent}
the
workers
on
parliament
hill
have
asked
that
bill
c-45
be
delayed
.
{sent}
they
do
not
even
want
it
to
go
to
committee
since
that
would
bring
it
one
step
closer
to
enactment
.
{sent}
the
workers
on
the
hill
know
how
our
system
operates
.
{sent}
there
have
been
many
times
in
the
house
when
members
on
all
sides
have
agreed
to
the
principle
of
a
bill
which
has
very
large
flaws
and
have
wanted
the
bill
to
go
to
committee
,
where
amendments
can
be
moved
,
so
that
it
can
be
improved
upon
.
{sent}
the
workers
on
the
hill
are
very
familiar
with
this
procedure
.
{sent}
this
is
really
a
serious
situation
.
{sent}
although
negotiations
with
the
union
are
being
conducted
by
the
administration
of
the
house
,
every
member
has
a
vested
interest
in
this
matter
.
{sent}
while
we
are
not
empowered
to
negotiate
,
in
a
sense
we
are
the
employers
of
these
people
.
{sent}
if
they
are
not
happy
with
this
bill
,
then
why
on
earth
do
we
not
just
go
back
to
the
drawing-board
and
try
to
come
up
with
something
on
which
there
can
be
agreement
?
{sent}
how
did
we
ever
get
into
this
situation
?
{sent}
i
am
sure
everyone
would
agree
that
the
workers
on
the
hill
are
entitled
to
some
type
of
staff
association
,
a
union
,
we
can
call
it
what
we
will
.
{sent}
they
are
entitled
to
some
type
of
arrangement
by
which
they
can
bargain
and
which
will
allow
them
a
say
in
the
conditions
of
their
work
.
{sent}
since
everyone
is
agreed
on
that
point
,
why
on
earth
not
take
the
next
step
and
make
more
of
an
effort
to
ensure
that
what
they
are
offered
is
what
they
want
?
{sent}
after
all
,
one
of
the
points
in
having
a
union
is
so
that
there
is
an
organized
framework
for
the
resolution
of
disputes
and
so
that
there
can
be
fairer
labour
practices
which
benefit
both
worker
and
employer
.
{sent}
if
we
start
off
with
a
situation
in
which
workers
say
they
do
not
want
this
,
then
surely
we
are
starting
off
on
the
wrong
foot
.
{sent}
surely
,
there
is
no
way
of
rescuing
this
legislation
.
{sent}
i
strongly
suggest
that
the
government
withdraw
it
and
start
some
meaningful
and
time-limited
negotiations
with
the
employees
in
order
to
come
up
with
something
that
is
acceptable
.
{sent}
after
all
,
if
people
have
something
forced
upon
them
,
they
will
not
use
it
productively
.
{sent}
however
,
something
which
is
agreed
upon
with
good
will
between
employer
and
employee
is
more
likely
to
work
and
more
likely
to
provide
a
sensible
framework
for
the
resolution
of
disputes
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
are
there
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
churchill
(
mr.
murphy
)
.
{sent}
miss
nicholson
(
trinity
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
is
not
correct
in
saying
that
the
previous
government
did
not
act
at
all
in
this
respect
.
{sent}
it
was
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
introduced
by
the
previous
government
which
was
the
basis
for
broadening
access
to
collective
bargaining
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
we
had
draft
legislation
.
{sent}
since
it
was
not
an
area
in
which
i
was
immediately
involved
,
i
cannot
remember
whether
or
not
it
was
introduced
in
the
house
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
more
than
pleased
to
have
listened
to
the
remarks
of
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
trinity
(
miss
nicholson
)
.
{sent}
knowing
her
background
,
especially
in
social
work
,
and
knowing
of
her
commitment
to
good
employee
relations
,
i
was
very
impressed
with
her
approach
to
the
subject
matter
before
us
.
{sent}
in
the
name
of
all
of
us
who
have
a
deep
interest
in
employer-employee
relations
,
i
wish
to
thank
her
for
her
remarks
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
ask
her
if
she
recognizes
that
the
house
of
commons
is
an
essential
service
and
that
as
such
we
should
designate
certain
services
as
essential
to
the
safety
and
security
of
the
operation
of
parliament
.
{sent}
i
believe
she
was
in
the
house
when
i
asked
a
question
of
the
hon.
member
for
humboldt
--
lake
centre
(
mr.
althouse
)
.
{sent}
i
asked
him
what
he
would
do
if
the
house
of
commons
in
its
wisdom
,
and
the
employees
in
theirs
,
accepted
to
include
the
right
to
strike
,
as
is
the
case
with
public
servants
.
{sent}
in
my
speech
,
i
think
i
made
it
clear
that
the
employees
themselves
have
said
that
they
could
forgo
that
right
if
meaningful
negotiations
were
forthcoming
on
binding
,
third-party
arbitration
.
{sent}
perhaps
what
i
am
putting
forward
is
hypothetical
.
{sent}
i
prefaced
my
remarks
by
saying
that
i
know
the
hon.
member
's
commitment
to
employer-employee
relations
,
and
i
also
understand
how
she
has
worked
with
people
over
the
years
.
{sent}
how
would
she
feel
if
there
was
a
strike
and
a
picket
line
was
set
up
on
parliament
hill
?
{sent}
i
know
the
position
of
certain
members
of
the
ndp
who
spoke
today
.
{sent}
they
said
that
they
would
never
cross
a
picket
line
for
whatever
reason
.
{sent}
i
wonder
how
the
hon.
member
for
trinity
feels
about
this
.
{sent}
perhaps
this
is
unfair
to
her
because
i
did
not
discuss
this
matter
with
her
before
.
{sent}
perhaps
i
should
ask
the
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
minister
--
{sent}
mr.
murphy
:
they
have
to
make
a
speech
before
you
can
do
that
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
yes
,
i
may
have
to
ask
that
question
of
the
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
house
leader
.
{sent}
perhaps
the
hon.
member
for
gatineau
(
mrs.
mailly
)
wishes
to
make
a
speech
and
to
tell
us
how
she
would
act
.
{sent}
however
,
i
am
asking
the
question
of
the
hon.
member
for
trinity
who
has
made
public
her
views
on
this
bill
.
{sent}
we
do
not
yet
know
the
views
of
the
hon.
member
for
gatineau
,
but
we
may
find
out
about
them
some
day
.
{sent}
what
would
the
hon.
member
say
in
response
to
the
comments
i
have
just
made
?
{sent}
miss
nicholson
(
trinity
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
first
,
i
do
think
it
is
logical
to
regard
parliament
as
an
essential
service
in
which
strikes
would
not
be
permitted
.
{sent}
i
think
that
way
because
of
how
important
it
is
for
citizens
to
be
able
to
have
access
to
their
elected
representatives
to
redress
grievances
.
{sent}
if
parliament
was
not
able
to
operate
,
the
government
and
the
executive
level
would
operate
without
any
checks
and
balances
,
and
that
would
be
most
undesirable
in
a
democracy
.
{sent}
that
kind
of
situation
would
be
fraught
with
all
kinds
of
possibilities
for
arbitrary
decisions
against
citizens
who
would
not
have
any
means
of
redress
.
{sent}
for
those
reasons
,
i
think
it
is
reasonable
to
withhold
the
right
to
strike
from
hill
employees
.
{sent}
however
,
having
said
that
,
workers
who
are
deprived
of
that
particular
right
,
which
is
a
blunt
and
very
powerful
weapon
,
must
be
protected
in
other
ways
.
{sent}
they
must
have
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
to
inform
the
hon.
member
that
there
is
not
enough
time
left
today
.
{sent}
when
we
resume
the
debate
,
the
hon.
member
for
trinity
(
miss
nicholson
)
will
have
the
floor
for
another
four
minutes
for
questions
and
comments
.
{sent}
parliamentary
employment
and
staff
relations
act
{sent}
proceedings
on
adjournment
motion
{sent}
a
motion
to
adjourn
the
house
under
standing
order
66
deemed
to
have
been
moved
.
{sent}
official
languages
--
assistance
for
official
language
minority
groups
--
government
position
.
{sent}
(
b
)
inquiry
when
government
will
act
.
{sent}
i
read
some
comments
in
the
press
that
the
government
was
rather
slow
and
hesitant
about
implementing
official
languages
programs
and
policies
.
{sent}
i
asked
the
question
,
because
if
i
had
known
the
answer
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
not
have
asked
the
secretary
of
state
for
further
details
.
{sent}
we
know
that
the
court
challenges
program
under
which
groups
authorized
to
bring
questions
of
national
importance
before
the
courts
was
expanded
in
september
1985
.
{sent}
as
we
know
,
mr.
speaker
,
the
whole
process
has
been
entrusted
to
a
third
party
.
{sent}
the
social
planning
council
has
been
instructed
to
set
up
a
panel
to
rule
on
the
eligibility
of
the
various
claims
.
{sent}
if
the
minister
's
response
tonight
is
that
the
said
committee
has
to
deal
with
20
cases
,
i
will
say
:
yes
,
but
where
are
the
results
?
{sent}
i
have
not
received
any
reply
to
that
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
was
not
about
the
official
languages
act
.
{sent}
my
question
was
more
concerned
with
language
programs
and
policies
.
{sent}
you
know
,
all
this
means
is
festina
lente
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
you
understand
latin
,
so
you
know
what
festina
lente
means
.
{sent}
it
means
:
make
haste
slowly
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
that
is
not
what
we
need
.
{sent}
we
need
leadership
.
{sent}
we
will
provide
the
necessary
leadership
,
and
we
will
give
that
leadership
to
canadians
and
we
will
show
by
our
convictions
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
secretary
of
state
(
mr.scott
)
.
{sent}
support
for
minorities
is
an
essential
aspect
of
the
over-all
policy
of
the
federal
government
with
respect
to
the
official
languages
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
our
government
has
maintained
the
$
20
million
budget
for
the
official
languages
communities
program
.
{sent}
we
have
renewed
and
expanded
the
court
challenges
program
and
made
sure
that
it
will
be
administered
by
the
canadian
council
on
social
development
.
{sent}
we
are
now
examining
new
ways
to
support
the
development
of
minorities
in
co-operation
with
the
provinces
,
the
private
sector
and
volunteer
organizations
.
{sent}
the
protocol
on
official
languages
in
education
has
been
renewed
until
1988
with
a
3
per
cent
increase
for
the
first
year
.
{sent}
this
means
$
432
million
over
two
years
.
{sent}
with
regard
to
francophones
in
ontario
receiving
french
language
programming
,
our
government
has
made
a
significant
contribution
.
{sent}
for
1985-86
we
have
provided
$
1.6
million
for
french
language
programming
.
{sent}
the
government
has
also
made
a
commitment
to
finance
half
the
costs
of
establishing
the
french
network
of
tv
ontario
.
{sent}
this
amounts
to
$
3
million
a
year
for
five
years
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
the
hon.
member
's
concern
regarding
section
23
of
the
charter
and
the
question
of
minority
education
rights
.
{sent}
i
want
to
point
out
that
since
the
adoption
of
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
,
some
provinces
have
improved
the
availability
of
education
in
the
minority
language
.
{sent}
the
province
of
ontario
has
dropped
the
criterion
"
where
numbers
warrant
"
and
is
proposing
the
establishment
of
a
minority
language
school
board
in
ottawa
.
{sent}
the
province
of
manitoba
is
reviewing
minority
school
management
.
{sent}
we
are
all
aware
,
of
course
,
of
the
federal
government
's
support
to
the
northwest
territories
in
establishing
french
as
an
official
language
of
the
territories
.
{sent}
preliminary
steps
are
now
being
taken
to
negotiate
an
agreement
on
official
languages
with
the
yukon
.
{sent}
in
short
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
it
is
clear
that
the
federal
government
has
been
and
still
is
very
supportive
of
the
minority
official
languages
communities
throughout
canada
.
{sent}
research
and
development
--
textiles
--
government
position
{sent}
the
house
knows
my
concern
for
the
survival
of
the
textile
industry
in
canada
,
and
i
am
particularly
worried
about
the
ability
of
our
industry
to
cope
with
international
competition
.
{sent}
that
is
why
i
would
like
to
inform
the
minister
of
my
concerns
about
research
in
the
textile
industry
.
{sent}
the
textile
industry
has
introduced
ultramodern
technology
which
is
accessible
throughout
the
world
and
it
has
become
increasing
capital
intensive
.
{sent}
we
know
that
at
the
present
time
,
canada
has
no
research
centres
that
are
really
specialized
in
textiles
.
{sent}
i
am
referring
to
research
aimed
at
discovering
new
products
and
new
manufacturing
processes
.
{sent}
at
the
present
time
,
when
a
textile
manufacturer
is
looking
for
new
ideas
,
he
has
to
get
them
from
the
trade
magazines
or
visit
the
textile
fairs
in
europe
.
{sent}
the
house
will
agree
it
is
not
very
practical
to
have
to
travel
so
far
to
learn
something
.
{sent}
and
it
will
also
recognize
that
small
businesses
are
always
penalized
more
than
others
,
because
they
lack
the
resources
to
be
able
to
send
regularly
a
person
or
persons
around
the
world
to
look
for
new
concepts
.
{sent}
we
are
now
seeing
the
introduction
of
new
technology
with
the
latest
computerized
equipment
for
primary
manufacturing
operations
.
{sent}
this
research
program
is
sponsored
by
a
group
of
textile
and
garment
manufacturers
,
the
unions
involved
,
and
the
american
department
of
trade
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
it
is
a
ten-year
$
69
million
program
being
carried
out
in
boston
,
in
the
state
of
massachussetts
.
{sent}
the
results
are
quite
encouraging
,
and
the
prototype
of
a
sewing
system
using
mobile
sewing
machines
remotely
controlled
by
cameras
and
computers
has
been
developed
and
tested
in
a
plant
.
{sent}
advanced
research
has
been
made
to
include
other
sewing
operations
and
to
lower
the
production
cost
of
the
prototype
.
{sent}
this
revolutionary
sewing
system
should
be
on
the
market
within
three
years
.
{sent}
in
western
europe
,
research
and
development
work
is
being
done
at
two
levels
,
by
the
european
economic
community
and
by
individual
countries
.
{sent}
the
european
economic
community
's
research
and
development
project
has
a
budget
of
$
17
million
spread
over
four
years
,
and
will
be
up
to
50
per
cent
financed
by
these
countries
.
{sent}
in
canada
,
our
main
exports
are
furs
and
outer
wear
,
which
represent
49
per
cent
and
21
per
cent
,
respectively
,
of
the
industry
's
exports
.
{sent}
actually
,
the
countries
of
south-east
asia
have
recently
penetrated
the
fur
market
.
{sent}
are
we
going
to
let
them
have
a
free
rein
?
{sent}
when
i
think
of
textile
research
and
development
in
my
own
province
,
i
think
of
businesses
that
have
succeeded
in
taking
the
initiative
and
creating
an
original
product
.
{sent}
i
am
thinking
,
for
instance
,
of
nalpac
,
in
montreal
,
which
invented
a
revolutionary
snow
fence
made
of
polyester
.
{sent}
i
am
thinking
of
texcel
in
beauce
,
which
manufactures
geotextiles
that
are
immensely
useful
for
road
construction
in
marshy
areas
.
{sent}
i
am
thinking
of
dominion
textiles
,
in
drummondville
,
which
manufactures
kevlar
cloth
for
tires
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
can
you
imagine
what
our
inventive
geniuses
could
do
if
they
had
technical
support
through
a
specialized
textile
research
centre
?
{sent}
the
centre
could
do
regular
testing
on
manufactured
products
entering
canada
to
examine
the
actual
composition
of
such
products
and
find
out
whether
they
are
up
to
import
standards
.
{sent}
it
could
also
be
a
place
where
we
would
have
a
bank
of
experts
.
{sent}
i
know
several
people
who
are
retired
and
who
would
be
delighted
to
serve
as
consultants
.
{sent}
mr.
john
mcdermid
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
congratulate
the
hon.
member
on
his
very
fine
and
well
researched
presentation
.
{sent}
it
is
well
known
in
the
house
of
commons
that
the
hon.
member
for
drummond
(
mr.
guilbault
)
is
very
,
very
interested
in
ensuring
that
the
textile
industry
progresses
.
{sent}
he
makes
his
presentations
very
well
known
to
the
minister
of
science
and
technology
(
mr.
oberle
)
,
as
well
as
the
minister
of
regional
industrial
expansion
(
mr.
stevens
)
.
{sent}
the
fully
refundable
r
and
d
investment
tax
credit
was
specifically
intended
to
assist
such
companies
.
{sent}
it
also
happens
to
be
my
birthday
,
so
it
must
be
a
great
day
.
{sent}
under
the
agreement
,
the
two
governments
will
spend
$
38
million
over
five
years
to
promote
research
and
technological
innovation
in
quebec
firms
.
{sent}
while
the
initiatives
must
come
from
the
firms
,
they
are
encouraged
to
collaborate
closely
with
universities
.
{sent}
research
and
textile
fibre
technology
is
supported
at
the
university
of
guelph
and
the
university
of
manitoba
.
{sent}
the
national
research
council
maintains
a
team
of
12
people
who
conduct
research
on
textiles
and
textile
fibres
,
the
results
of
which
are
available
to
the
industry
.
{sent}
i
know
the
hon.
member
mentioned
that
the
textile
industry
may
not
be
that
interested
in
the
nrc
,
but
i
am
sure
that
the
co-operation
between
the
industry
and
nrc
can
improve
and
will
do
so
.
{sent}
the
field
staff
of
nrc
provides
advice
on
research
and
the
latest
technology
to
the
firms
in
the
sector
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
should
know
that
quebec
provides
assistance
to
the
centre
québécois
de
la
productivité
et
du
rendement
,
and
that
the
federal
governmemt
does
not
want
to
duplicate
the
work
of
that
organization
.
{sent}
finally
,
the
federal
government
does
much
to
promote
technical
progress
in
that
sector
.
{sent}
energy
--
suggested
discounts
for
motorists
paying
cash
for
gasoline
{sent}
mr.
reginald
stackhouse
(
scarborough
west
)
:
thank
you
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
the
adjournment
debate
is
designed
to
give
members
of
parliament
an
opportunity
for
further
discussion
when
members
are
not
satisfied
with
answers
they
have
received
.
{sent}
i
welcome
this
opportunity
and
thank
the
parliamentary
secretary
for
his
attendance
.
{sent}
this
would
be
an
appropriate
sequel
to
the
actions
already
taken
by
the
energy
minister
,
who
has
clearly
shown
that
she
is
an
advocate
for
consumers
.
{sent}
it
is
right
that
a
minister
be
that
kind
of
advocate
.
{sent}
lobbyists
represent
different
interest
groups
within
canadian
society
on
this
hill
.
{sent}
trade
,
business
and
labour
associations
all
have
their
champions
here
.
{sent}
who
represents
individual
consumers
except
their
members
of
parliament
and
the
government
they
elect
?
{sent}
speaking
out
on
behalf
of
consumers
is
especially
appropriate
for
a
progressive
conservative
government
,
for
ours
is
a
people
party
that
cares
about
people
and
their
concerns
.
{sent}
time
on
this
adjournment
debate
does
not
permit
the
review
of
the
many
occasions
when
the
conservative
party
has
acted
on
behalf
of
consumers
.
{sent}
robert
stanfield
,
for
example
,
as
leader
of
the
opposition
,
was
ready
to
go
as
far
as
price
controls
.
{sent}
my
question
did
not
urge
any
action
,
extreme
or
moderate
.
{sent}
in
place
of
action
,
it
suggested
using
moral
suasion
,
for
moral
suasion
has
been
proven
to
be
an
effective
instrument
in
gaining
fairness
for
the
canadian
consumer
.
{sent}
the
energy
minister
has
herself
made
use
of
moral
suasion
on
behalf
of
motorists
in
this
country
.
{sent}
i
quote
from
her
remarks
in
the
house
on
march
12
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
glad
to
be
able
to
tell
the
hon.
member
that
politeness
pays
off
.
{sent}
i
have
been
encouraged
by
the
effectiveness
of
her
moral
suasion
.
{sent}
on
march
13
,
for
example
,
one
gas
station
in
scarborough
west
charged
46.9
cents
for
regular
gas
and
49
cents
for
unleaded
.
{sent}
politeness
does
pay
off
"
.
{sent}
a
caring
government
cares
enough
to
help
.
{sent}
as
well
,
the
discount
for
cash
proposal
is
credible
.
{sent}
already
one
of
canada
's
major
oil
companies
has
informed
me
that
it
is
"
seriously
studying
"
this
proposal
and
its
application
in
british
columbia
.
{sent}
at
this
very
moment
in
various
parts
of
the
u.s.
,
certain
major
oil
companies
such
as
esso
are
presently
giving
discount
prices
to
motorists
who
pay
with
cash
rather
than
credit
cards
in
particular
regions
.
{sent}
the
proposal
is
thus
credible
and
practical
.
{sent}
in
response
to
my
request
on
april
7
,
i
was
told
by
the
parliamentary
secretary
:
{sent}
no
more
would
she
suggest
that
a
company
do
that
than
she
would
suggest
that
a
haberdasher
charge
less
for
a
suit
when
customers
pay
cash
rather
than
use
credit
cards
.
{sent}
there
was
simply
no
parallel
there
.
{sent}
i
had
to
be
impressed
and
somewhat
amused
by
the
way
the
word
"
haberdasher
"
was
used
in
a
political
sense
.
{sent}
the
late
president
harry
truman
was
a
haberdasher
.
{sent}
at
one
point
in
his
life
he
saw
the
value
of
his
inventory
reduced
by
over
800
per
cent
in
one
week
through
bank
action
.
{sent}
there
was
a
haberdasher
who
would
have
appreciated
some
government
action
.
{sent}
it
has
been
demonstrated
time
and
time
again
that
moral
suasion
by
the
government
produces
results
in
private
enterprise
.
{sent}
i
commend
the
minister
for
what
she
has
done
on
behalf
of
consumers
.
{sent}
i
hope
she
might
yet
take
one
further
step
.
{sent}
moral
suasion
and
politeness
pay
off
.
{sent}
he
has
made
an
excellent
suggestion
to
the
oil
companies
.
{sent}
obviously
they
have
already
received
his
message
loud
and
clear
.
{sent}
the
minister
does
not
and
will
not
interfere
in
the
day-to-day
operations
of
private
sector
companies
.
{sent}
she
has
made
that
very
,
very
clear
.
{sent}
at
one
time
,
and
i
think
rightfully
so
,
she
said
that
she
expected
the
savings
from
falling
oil
prices
would
be
passed
on
to
the
consumer
.
{sent}
the
companies
are
doing
that
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
think
that
when
the
minister
sent
that
telegram
to
the
various
companies
,
it
had
some
effect
.
{sent}
there
are
many
marketing
tools
,
and
this
is
a
marketing
tool
,
which
the
companies
use
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
mentioned
that
some
of
the
major
oil
companies
use
it
in
the
u.s.
,
but
only
in
certain
areas
.
{sent}
obviously
it
is
a
marketing
tool
within
a
certain
area
.
{sent}
i
know
that
here
in
canada
many
of
our
energy
companies
provide
5
per
cent
discounts
to
various
organizations
which
have
a
special
card
and
buy
their
gas
at
a
certain
station
of
a
certain
company
.
{sent}
these
are
all
marketing
practices
carried
on
by
various
companies
.
{sent}
the
minister
does
not
want
to
get
involved
in
day-to-day
marketing
operations
of
these
companies
.
{sent}
we
deregulated
the
industry
and
as
a
government
,
we
are
committed
to
deregulation
.
{sent}
the
canadian
electorate
have
said
that
we
should
let
them
operate
their
businesses
and
get
off
their
backs
.
{sent}
they
will
do
the
job
,
they
will
create
employment
and
make
things
better
for
canadians
,
but
we
should
stop
placing
this
burden
of
government
on
them
.
{sent}
this
is
happening
and
we
have
seen
some
very
positive
results
.
{sent}
obviously
he
has
been
in
touch
with
one
of
the
major
oil
companies
,
and
he
might
want
to
encourage
the
others
by
making
that
suggestion
to
them
.
{sent}
i
thank
him
for
bringing
up
this
issue
and
for
his
concern
.
{sent}
yes
,
we
are
very
,
very
pleased
that
the
savings
resulting
from
lower
oil
prices
have
been
passed
on
to
consumers
right
across
this
great
country
of
ours
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
motion
to
adjourn
the
house
is
now
deemed
to
have
been
adopted
.
{sent}
accordingly
this
house
stands
adjourned
until
tomorrow
at
11
a.m.
,
pursuant
to
standing
order
3(1)
.
{sent}
the
house
adjourned
at
6.54
p.m.
{sent}
s.o.
21
{sent}
house
of
commons
{sent}
friday
,
april
18
,
1986
{sent}
the
house
met
at
11
a.m.
{sent}
crown
corporations
{sent}
sale
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
--
employees'
pensions
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
on
december
2
,
1985
,
mr.
speaker
,
the
government
announced
its
decision
to
authorize
the
divestiture
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
in
montreal
.
{sent}
established
in
1945
,
this
corporation
is
one
of
the
most
profitable
agencies
of
the
government
of
canada
,
with
750
employees
in
montreal
and
50
more
in
saint-augustin
near
quebec
city
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
60
seconds
have
expired
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
humbolt
--
lake
centre
(
mr.
althouse
)
.
{sent}
department
of
employment
and
immigration
{sent}
hiring
practices
in
humboldt
--
lake
centre
constituency
{sent}
mr.
vic
althouse
(
humboldt
--
lake
centre
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
begin
the
day
with
a
small
puzzle
for
members
of
the
house
.
{sent}
it
is
a
brain
teaser
concerning
a
real
life
situation
.
{sent}
since
i
do
not
know
the
answer
,
i
will
ask
the
house
.
{sent}
has
that
created
three
jobs
,
two
jobs
,
or
one
job
?
{sent}
those
hon.
members
who
get
the
answer
have
places
reserved
for
them
in
the
line-ups
in
front
of
their
local
canada
employment
offices
.
{sent}
vandalism
{sent}
defacing
of
ukrainian
monument
in
edmonton
{sent}
the
words
"
nazi
lies
"
were
painted
on
the
monument
.
{sent}
the
ukrainian
canadian
committee
and
the
jewish
federation
of
edmonton
stated
,
and
i
quote
:
{sent}
as
a
canadian
of
ukrainian
racial
origin
i
am
outraged
at
this
act
of
vulgarity
against
the
memory
of
over
six
million
ukrainians
who
were
starved
at
the
hands
of
communism
.
{sent}
this
monument
reminds
us
of
past
evils
and
atrocities
committed
against
ukrainians
.
{sent}
people
may
deface
monuments
,
but
they
cannot
erase
the
memory
of
a
people
or
change
the
truth
of
history
.
{sent}
environmental
affairs
{sent}
industrial
pollution
control
in
construction
of
noranda
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
diesel
fuel
prices
in
upper
ottawa
valley
{sent}
yet
farmers
in
the
upper
ottawa
valley
who
will
be
on
the
land
very
soon
are
not
paying
lower
prices
.
{sent}
as
diesel
fuel
costs
form
a
significant
portion
of
a
farmer
's
fixed
costs
,
i
find
the
present
state
of
affairs
grossly
unfair
and
indicative
of
the
government
's
continuing
insensitivity
to
the
plight
of
the
farmer
.
{sent}
i
call
upon
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
(
miss
carney
)
to
initiate
,
on
an
urgent
basis
,
a
full
and
complete
inquiry
into
diesel
fuel
prices
in
the
upper
ottawa
valley
.
{sent}
yet
in
the
upper
ottawa
valley
prices
have
not
dropped
at
all
.
{sent}
this
is
an
injustice
to
the
farm
community
and
to
the
forest
industry
.
{sent}
it
is
a
deplorable
situation
and
needs
immediate
attention
.
{sent}
the
minister
says
she
will
not
interfere
with
private
enterprise
.
{sent}
this
is
proof
that
she
is
not
interfering
with
her
friends
who
have
oil
interests
.
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
positive
effects
from
bank
rate
reduction
{sent}
yesterday
,
the
bank
of
canada
announced
a
further
reduction
in
the
bank
rate
.
{sent}
successive
reductions
within
the
last
few
weeks
have
had
a
positive
impact
on
all
sectors
of
our
economy
.
{sent}
according
to
statistics
canada
,
sales
reached
$
11.2
billion
in
february
1986
,
an
increase
of
14.1
per
cent
over
september
1984
,
and
9.7
per
cent
over
february
1985
.
{sent}
in
quebec
,
the
figures
are
almost
identical
:
14.2
per
cent
compared
with
september
1984
,
and
9.2
per
cent
compared
with
february
1985
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
this
is
thanks
to
the
sound
and
effective
policies
of
our
government
.
{sent}
youth
{sent}
federal
employment
funding
{sent}
mr.
rod
murphy
(
churchill
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
conservative
government
has
turned
its
back
on
the
unemployed
and
student
youth
.
{sent}
the
total
funding
for
summer
employment
experience
development
has
been
reduced
from
$
163
million
in
1985
to
$
127
million
in
1986
.
{sent}
some
of
this
money
has
already
been
siphoned
off
to
be
used
only
for
expo
'
86
.
{sent}
what
is
the
result
?
{sent}
this
money
is
earmarked
for
municipal
,
public
,
and
private
sector
job
creation
where
wage
subsidies
are
required
.
{sent}
the
government
must
act
now
to
provide
funds
for
youth
,
at
least
meeting
and
matching
last
year
's
contribution
,
even
if
it
is
not
willing
to
meet
the
real
needs
of
unemployed
youth
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada
--
united
states
negotiations
--
importance
to
sarnia-lambton
{sent}
enhanced
trade
with
the
u.s.
is
no
longer
an
option
for
the
canadian
economy
but
a
necessity
.
{sent}
the
choice
is
no
longer
between
freer
trade
or
maintaining
the
status
quo
,
but
between
freer
trade
or
closed
borders
.
{sent}
my
riding
of
sarnia
--
lambton
,
with
its
proximity
to
the
u.s.
,
is
extremely
interested
in
having
our
borders
opened
.
{sent}
the
unemployment
rate
in
my
constituency
is
far
above
the
national
average
,
and
the
attraction
of
new
businesses
and
industries
is
essential
to
our
area
.
{sent}
earlier
this
week
i
attended
the
opening
of
an
american
company
which
has
chosen
the
sarnia
area
as
its
first
canadian
location
.
{sent}
on
many
other
occasions
we
have
not
been
so
fortunate
.
{sent}
recently
another
american
firm
was
deterred
from
opening
in
our
area
because
of
the
high
tariffs
and
duties
on
goods
entering
the
u.s.
{sent}
we
must
make
a
determined
effort
to
attract
new
businesses
into
our
country
.
{sent}
opening
our
borders
is
very
essential
.
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
confidence
in
government
policies
{sent}
the
results
clearly
show
confidence
in
the
federal
government
's
economic
and
fiscal
policies
,
as
well
as
in
the
forthcoming
trade
negotiations
with
the
united
states
.
{sent}
prostitution
{sent}
alleged
discrimination
resulting
from
bill
c-49
{sent}
mrs.
lucie
pépin
(
outremont
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
today
i
would
like
to
discuss
some
of
the
consequences
of
the
new
legislation
on
soliciting
for
the
purpose
of
engaging
in
prostitution
.
{sent}
in
vancouver
,
about
two-thirds
of
the
arrests
made
involved
prostitutes
and
only
one-third
their
clients
.
{sent}
we
had
a
glaring
example
the
other
day
in
vancouver
of
the
difference
between
the
treatment
given
prostitutes
and
the
treatment
given
their
clients
.
{sent}
a
prostitute
and
a
client
were
both
arrested
for
soliciting
,
and
both
cases
were
heard
by
the
same
judge
.
{sent}
the
prostitute
was
fined
$
150
or
five
days
in
jail
,
and
the
client
was
acquitted
and
put
on
probation
.
{sent}
this
evidence
of
discrimination
proves
that
the
many
people
who
are
opposed
to
this
legislation
are
right
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
once
more
i
want
to
voice
my
objections
against
this
unfair
legislation
which
allows
the
police
and
judges
to
apply
a
double
standard
,
depending
on
where
their
prejudice
lies
.
{sent}
industry
{sent}
b.c.
telephone
company
--
announcement
of
lay-offs
{sent}
ms.
margaret
mitchell
(
vancouver
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
b.
c.
telephone
company
appears
to
be
deliberately
terminating
jobs
for
operators
,
most
of
whom
are
women
.
{sent}
after
decimating
jobs
for
women
in
terrace
,
the
company
now
plans
to
terminate
some
70
jobs
in
cranbrook
.
{sent}
since
most
women
operators
cannot
leave
their
families
to
transfer
elsewhere
,
this
has
resulted
in
a
subtle
tactic
to
reduce
operators'
jobs
by
the
hundreds
.
{sent}
we
do
not
agree
with
the
hon.
member
for
kootenay
east
--
revelstoke
(
mr.
graham
)
who
has
said
that
this
is
not
a
federal
issue
.
{sent}
we
ask
the
minister
of
labour
(
mr.
mcknight
)
to
investigate
whether
b.c.
tel
is
ignoring
its
responsibility
under
the
canada
labour
code
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
freeze
placed
on
grain
companies'
storage
charges
{sent}
mr.
lee
clark
(
brandon
--
souris
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
with
low
commodity
prices
and
increasingly
high
input
costs
,
canadian
farmers
are
under
an
immense
amount
of
financial
pressure
.
{sent}
therefore
i
was
very
relieved
to
learn
that
the
canadian
grain
commission
has
frozen
the
amount
that
grain
companies
can
charge
farmers
for
storing
,
handling
,
and
cleaning
grain
.
{sent}
this
decision
will
mean
a
saving
to
canadian
grain
producers
of
an
estimated
$
20
million
.
{sent}
centennial
of
city
of
saint-léonard
{sent}
invitation
to
celebrations
{sent}
there
is
a
series
of
activities
that
will
take
place
between
april
1986
and
april
1987
,
and
they
are
all
very
exciting
.
{sent}
we
hope
to
see
you
among
our
enthusiastic
crowds
.
{sent}
welcome
to
saint-léonard
on
the
occasion
of
its
100th
birthday
!
{sent}
oral
questions
{sent}
oral
question
period
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
imasco
takeover
of
genstar
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
.
{sent}
will
the
government
announce
a
policy
prohibiting
such
takeovers
and
the
continuing
concentration
of
economic
power
in
canada
?
{sent}
i
will
certainly
respect
the
rights
of
parliament
in
addressing
ownership
policy
,
as
i
indicated
yesterday
.
{sent}
we
have
made
a
lot
of
progress
in
this
arrangement
we
have
made
with
imasco
and
genstar
in
terms
of
the
conditions
we
laid
down
for
them
.
{sent}
government
's
attitude
{sent}
we
have
made
considerable
strides
.
{sent}
request
that
parliamentary
committee
be
reconvened
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
final
question
is
directed
to
the
house
leader
in
the
absence
of
the
hon.
member
who
is
the
chairman
of
the
standing
committee
on
finance
.
{sent}
hon.
ray
hnatyshyn
(
president
of
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
that
is
a
good
idea
,
but
it
is
up
to
the
members
of
the
committee
--
{sent}
i
think
the
right
hon.
member
will
understand
that
members
of
the
committee
,
particularly
under
the
new
reform
rules
,
are
able
to
make
these
determinations
.
{sent}
self-dealing
inquiry
{sent}
miss
aideen
nicholson
(
trinity
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
also
for
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
and
also
concerns
the
imasco
takeover
.
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
received
an
undertaking
from
genstar
at
the
time
of
that
takeover
that
there
would
be
no
self-dealing
.
{sent}
we
have
much
stronger
undertakings
from
imasco
,
and
we
also
have
undertakings
on
other
things
on
which
we
did
not
have
undertakings
before
.
{sent}
respect
for
undertaking
given
by
genstar
{sent}
miss
aideen
nicholson
(
trinity
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
minister
has
said
that
she
received
an
undertaking
from
genstar
that
it
would
not
be
involved
in
self-dealing
,
but
can
she
confirm
that
that
undertaking
was
respected
?
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
be
very
happy
to
check
with
the
superintendent
of
insurance
,
but
no
self-dealing
incidents
have
been
brought
to
my
attention
.
{sent}
superintendent
of
insurance
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
also
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
and
refers
to
the
superintendent
of
insurance
to
whom
the
minister
just
referred
.
{sent}
if
her
chief
adviser
said
that
it
was
not
in
the
best
interest
of
the
country
,
why
did
she
go
against
that
advice
?
{sent}
it
is
fair
to
depositors
.
{sent}
it
is
fair
to
the
companies
involved
.
{sent}
it
is
fair
to
hon.
members
of
the
house
who
expressed
concern
about
some
of
the
matters
on
which
we
obtained
undertakings
.
{sent}
i
think
that
is
in
the
public
interest
.
{sent}
government
's
decision
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
supplementary
question
for
the
minister
.
{sent}
the
clear
recommendation
of
the
finance
committee
on
two
occasions
was
to
stop
the
takeover
.
{sent}
it
was
virtually
the
opinion
of
the
house
of
commons
that
the
takeover
should
be
stopped
.
{sent}
can
she
identify
any
member
of
the
house
,
or
anybody
,
who
says
that
the
decision
to
go
ahead
with
the
takeover
is
a
good
idea
or
a
good
decision
in
the
interest
of
canada
and
canadians
?
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
yes
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
there
are
members
of
the
house
who
think
we
did
a
good
job
on
this
deal
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
external
affairs
{sent}
canada-libya
relations
--
request
for
comprehensive
economic
sanctions
{sent}
hon.
herb
gray
(
windsor
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
deputy
prime
minister
.
{sent}
on
january
10
the
prime
minister
announced
a
series
of
economic
measures
against
libya
,
but
they
were
far
from
cutting
off
all
significant
economic
relations
with
that
country
.
{sent}
would
the
government
not
agree
that
the
situation
has
become
far
more
serious
than
it
was
on
january
10
?
{sent}
replacement
of
american
workers
in
libya
by
canadian
workers
{sent}
hon.
herb
gray
(
windsor
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
surprised
the
government
does
not
realize
that
the
situation
has
changed
since
january
10
.
{sent}
in
the
january
10
statement
the
government
urged
canadian
companies
and
workers
not
to
fill
gaps
when
americans
left
libya
.
{sent}
could
the
government
assure
the
house
today
that
this
has
not
happened
and
that
canadian
companies
and
workers
are
not
helping
to
prop
up
the
libyan
regime
and
everything
connected
with
it
?
{sent}
could
the
government
give
us
that
assurance
and
tell
us
what
steps
it
is
taking
,
and
has
taken
,
to
ensure
that
canadian
workers
and
companies
are
not
filling
gaps
left
when
americans
withdrew
from
libya
?
{sent}
hon.
erik
nielsen
(
deputy
prime
minister
and
minister
of
national
defence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
told
the
hon.
gentleman
what
steps
canada
has
taken
.
{sent}
the
issue
which
he
raises
is
certainly
in
the
january
10
statement
.
{sent}
any
further
alternatives
which
are
to
be
explored
are
currently
being
explored
by
the
government
in
preparation
for
discussion
of
the
entire
matter
of
the
elimination
of
the
reprehensible
and
evil
scourge
of
terrorism
throughout
the
world
.
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
imasco
takeover
of
genstar
--
role
of
canada
trust
{sent}
hon.
edward
broadbent
(
oshawa
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
.
{sent}
that
is
in
the
schedule
which
was
signed
by
the
company
.
{sent}
corporate
affairs
{sent}
increase
in
corporate
mergers
{sent}
hon.
edward
broadbent
(
oshawa
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
policy
that
was
announced
,
that
will
hold
for
only
one
year
.
{sent}
it
will
be
interesting
to
see
all
that
spelled
out
at
some
point
in
the
near
future
.
{sent}
quite
apart
from
the
self-dealing
aspect
of
this
issue
,
which
was
of
great
concern
to
members
of
the
house
committee
and
members
of
my
party
,
we
are
also
concerned
about
the
alarming
rate
of
mergers
in
the
canadian
economy
.
{sent}
is
the
minister
aware
that
in
the
1960s
some
250
mergers
took
place
each
year
,
that
in
1985
there
were
over
700
,
and
the
forecast
rate
of
takeovers
this
year
will
exceed
900
?
{sent}
is
the
minister
aware
of
this
trend
and
,
if
so
,
what
does
the
government
plan
to
do
about
it
if
it
really
believes
in
competition
?
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
sure
that
many
of
those
mergers
and
takeovers
are
probably
very
positive
for
canada
.
{sent}
there
will
be
some
that
will
not
be
because
of
difficulties
in
one
company
or
another
.
{sent}
any
practical
experience
in
the
business
field
would
tell
the
hon.
member
that
sometimes
these
are
very
beneficial
.
{sent}
cost
to
taxpayers
{sent}
i
have
had
a
list
prepared
of
21
mergers
that
have
taken
place
since
1979
which
shows
that
these
mergers
have
cost
some
$
24
billion
in
the
main
,
without
producing
more
jobs
.
{sent}
also
they
were
mainly
financed
in
some
part
by
tax
breaks
.
{sent}
railways
{sent}
newfoundland
railway
--
federal-provincial
discussions
{sent}
he
knows
that
newfoundlanders
have
been
waiting
since
last
september
for
a
decision
on
the
fate
of
the
newfoundland
railway
.
{sent}
indeed
the
minister
in
this
house
,
and
as
recently
as
last
night
on
cbc
television
in
newfoundland
,
confirmed
that
discussions
were
ongoing
with
the
newfoundland
government
.
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
hope
those
discussions
will
conclude
and
a
decision
be
reached
very
soon
.
{sent}
premier
's
statement
{sent}
can
the
minister
tell
us
why
that
very
large
contradiction
exists
between
the
statement
of
the
minister
,
the
hon.
member
for
st.
john
's
west
,
and
the
denial
by
premier
of
newfoundland
?
{sent}
newfoundlanders
have
suffered
long
enough
from
an
uncertainty
caused
,
i
suspect
,
by
confederation-building
in
newfoundland
at
this
time
.
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
perhaps
a
matter
of
semantics
.
{sent}
there
have
been
discussions
,
and
perhaps
they
could
be
referred
to
as
negotiations
,
but
i
can
confirm
to
the
hon.
member
that
there
have
been
discussions
.
{sent}
those
discussions
will
continue
until
such
time
as
an
agreement
can
be
reached
more
or
less
in
principle
,
after
which
time
we
will
set
out
to
consult
with
the
people
of
newfoundland
,
the
communities
,
and
particularly
the
workers
involved
.
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
ownership
of
imasco
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
supply
and
services
.
{sent}
statistics
canada
,
for
which
he
is
responsible
,
carefully
reviews
company
structures
and
shareholdings
to
determine
which
are
foreign
controlled
.
{sent}
hon.
stewart
mcinnes
(
minister
of
supply
and
services
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
not
read
that
particular
report
,
but
i
would
be
happy
to
review
it
and
reply
to
my
hon.
friend
.
{sent}
mr.
langdon
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
suggest
that
the
minister
might
be
a
bit
more
on
top
of
his
ministry
.
{sent}
approval
of
genstar
takeover
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
direct
my
supplementary
question
to
the
minister
responsible
for
financial
institutions
.
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
hon.
colleague
to
my
right
is
very
much
on
top
of
his
ministry
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mrs.
mcdougall
:
imasco
is
classified
as
a
canadian
company
under
fira
and
investment
canada
.
{sent}
bat
in
britain
is
a
broadly-held
company
which
does
not
have
control
of
imasco
's
board
,
even
though
it
is
a
large
shareholder
.
{sent}
the
board
of
directors
is
totally
canadian
controlled
,
and
will
continue
to
be
so
.
{sent}
railways
{sent}
future
of
newfoundland
railway
{sent}
i
will
direct
my
question
to
the
minister
of
transport
.
{sent}
when
are
these
governments
going
to
stop
playing
peek-a-boo
with
each
other
and
the
people
of
newfoundland
so
that
the
people
of
newfoundland
will
know
what
is
being
discussed
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
's
rhetoric
is
a
bunch
of
nonsense
,
and
my
previous
answer
stands
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
poll
results
{sent}
is
the
minister
so
naive
as
to
believe
that
the
people
's
belief
that
the
highway
is
the
most
important
mode
will
give
justification
for
doing
away
with
the
railway
?
{sent}
through
that
reasoning
the
railway
could
be
done
away
with
right
across
the
country
.
{sent}
is
that
what
the
minister
wants
to
do
?
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
not
one-tenth
as
naive
as
the
hon.
member
who
just
spoke
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
softwood
exports
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
state
for
forestry
.
{sent}
hon.
gerald
s.
merrithew
(
minister
of
state
(
forestry
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
is
wrong
in
his
assumption
that
the
canadian
industry
or
the
government
has
been
inactive
on
this
particular
issue
.
{sent}
we
welcomed
the
delaying
of
the
vote
in
the
u.s.
senate
finance
committee
.
{sent}
we
think
that
the
president
of
the
united
states
has
given
us
an
indication
that
the
trade
talks
will
start
off
with
a
clean
launch
,
and
that
is
what
we
are
hoping
for
.
{sent}
minister
's
position
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
to
date
the
muldoon
belly
crawl
has
brought
us
quotas
and
tariffs
.
{sent}
of
all
members
of
cabinet
,
the
minister
should
have
done
something
real
through
the
1986-87
estimates
.
{sent}
all
he
has
brought
forward
is
one-half
a
person
year
in
order
to
deal
with
the
very
real
trade
threat
from
the
united
states
congress
.
{sent}
is
he
prepared
to
explain
why
he
did
not
do
more
in
the
1986-87
estimates
?
?
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
future
takeovers
--
request
for
restrictions
on
self-dealing
{sent}
mr.
w.
paul
mccrossan
(
york-scarborough
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
.
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
we
crossed
an
important
watershed
with
the
agreement
with
imasco
.
{sent}
i
do
not
want
financial
institutions
in
our
country
to
be
traded
around
like
penny
stocks
.
{sent}
insurance
{sent}
introduction
of
legislation
{sent}
mr.
alfonso
gagliano
(
saint-léonard
--
anjou
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
.
{sent}
can
the
minister
tell
canadians
if
she
is
encouraging
such
programs
,
and
when
she
will
table
legislation
to
protect
canadians
under
this
new
system
?
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
thank
the
hon.
member
for
his
continued
interest
in
this
important
issue
.
{sent}
our
officials
are
continuing
to
study
the
specific
problems
and
are
in
the
process
of
developing
an
approach
which
we
think
will
be
helpful
.
{sent}
the
industry
itself
has
been
helpful
in
coming
up
with
solutions
.
{sent}
i
think
the
worst
of
our
crisis
is
over
.
{sent}
legislation
on
property
and
casualty
insurance
will
be
forthcoming
shortly
.
{sent}
casualty
self-insurance
{sent}
is
she
going
to
consult
with
her
colleague
,
the
minister
of
consumer
and
corporate
affairs
,
so
that
canadian
consumers
will
be
protected
under
this
new
casualty
self-insurance
system
?
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
consult
regularly
with
my
colleague
,
the
minister
of
consumer
and
corporate
affairs
.
{sent}
i
am
very
anxious
to
get
this
legislation
into
the
house
as
rapidly
as
possible
.
{sent}
sometimes
i
am
a
little
optimistic
about
timing
.
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
genstar
takeover
--
reported
earnings
of
chairman
and
president
{sent}
mr.
john
r.
rodriguez
(
nickel
belt
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
and
is
with
regard
to
the
imasco
takeover
of
genstar
.
{sent}
was
the
minister
aware
of
that
?
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
seen
those
reports
in
the
press
,
but
have
not
confirmed
them
with
anyone
.
{sent}
minister
's
position
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
that
the
arrangements
between
buyers
and
sellers
are
their
own
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
it
's
a
conflict
.
{sent}
mrs.
mcdougall
:
what
may
seem
extravagant
to
the
hon.
member
,
and
perhaps
even
to
myself
,
is
not
necessarily
what
is
going
to
take
place
between
consenting
adults
.
{sent}
mr.
murphy
:
we
are
paying
for
it
,
remember
that
.
{sent}
status
of
women
{sent}
nielsen
report
--
halt
to
creation
of
university
chairs
of
women
's
studies
--
government
position
{sent}
mrs.
lucie
pépin
(
outremont
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
responsible
for
the
status
of
women
.
{sent}
one
of
the
recommendations
of
the
nielsen
report
is
to
stop
creating
chairs
of
women
's
studies
.
{sent}
we
know
that
interdisciplinary
research
is
essential
to
the
progress
being
by
women
in
every
way
.
{sent}
i
wish
the
minister
would
let
us
know
whether
he
intends
to
implement
this
recommendation
in
the
nielsen
report
.
{sent}
she
will
also
know
that
study
teams
have
in
other
places
dealt
with
women
's
issues
,
such
as
the
advisory
council
on
the
status
of
women
.
{sent}
they
have
called
for
more
research
and
enhanced
appointment
of
women
.
{sent}
all
in
all
,
some
of
the
recommendations
relating
to
women
from
the
different
study
teams
can
be
readily
accepted
,
and
others
need
to
be
discussed
.
{sent}
promotion
of
studies
--
government
position
{sent}
therefore
,
i
would
like
to
hear
from
the
minister
whether
he
intends
to
implement
the
nielsen
report
is
recommendation
,
which
is
not
at
all
like
the
answer
he
just
gave
me
.
{sent}
so
,
is
he
going
to
implement
this
recommendation
,
and
if
not
,
what
kind
of
measures
is
he
going
to
take
to
promote
research
?
{sent}
i
think
that
what
the
council
does
and
what
chairs
for
women
's
studies
do
are
two
entirely
different
things
.
{sent}
hon.
walter
mclean
(
minister
of
state
(
immigration
)
and
minister
responsible
for
the
status
of
women
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
thank
the
hon.
member
for
her
representations
.
{sent}
i
share
with
her
the
importance
of
research
into
women
's
studies
.
{sent}
as
she
knows
,
in
the
last
year
there
was
the
completion
of
five
regional
chairs
set
up
across
the
country
.
{sent}
canadian
national
railways
{sent}
sale
of
cn
route
--
situation
of
workers
{sent}
mr.
rod
murphy
(
churchill
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
transport
.
{sent}
he
knows
that
cn
route
is
selling
its
assets
to
three
toronto
investors
.
{sent}
in
the
negotiations
did
the
government
or
the
minister
take
any
steps
to
guarantee
job
security
for
the
workers
involved
?
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
cn
management
and
board
have
agreed
in
principle
to
a
proposal
to
sell
cn
route
.
{sent}
within
the
context
of
that
agreement
there
will
be
provision
for
certain
job
guarantees
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
should
be
aware
that
the
final
package
will
have
to
be
approved
by
the
governor-in-council
and
the
ctc
.
{sent}
until
such
time
as
all
of
these
details
can
be
worked
out
with
the
unions
and
all
other
parties
affected
,
we
are
not
in
a
position
to
say
just
what
the
full
package
will
look
like
.
{sent}
retirement
packages
inquiry
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
past
cn
has
been
very
generous
in
its
severance
arrangements
and
early
retirement
packages
.
{sent}
these
kinds
of
arrangements
are
being
negotiated
with
the
unions
within
the
context
of
the
purchase
agreement
which
has
been
put
together
.
{sent}
income
tax
{sent}
collection
of
delinquent
taxes
--
amnesty
program
proposal
{sent}
mr.
ken
james
(
sarnia
--
lambton
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
absence
of
the
minister
of
national
revenue
i
will
direct
my
question
to
his
parliamentary
secretary
.
{sent}
since
that
time
has
the
department
had
an
opportunity
to
look
into
the
feasibility
of
this
program
as
a
means
of
allowing
canadians
who
would
like
to
do
so
to
come
forward
and
pay
delinquent
income
taxes
?
{sent}
currently
in
canada
there
is
a
voluntary
disclosure
program
which
allows
anyone
who
has
failed
to
file
a
return
,
or
who
has
filed
an
incorrect
return
,
to
make
a
voluntary
disclosure
subsequently
without
fear
of
prosecution
.
{sent}
this
matter
is
held
in
strictest
confidence
between
the
taxpayer
and
revenue
canada
.
{sent}
i
want
to
assure
the
hon.
member
that
i
will
take
his
concern
as
a
representation
to
the
minister
.
{sent}
fisheries
{sent}
resource
short
plant
program
{sent}
the
government
does
have
a
resource
short
plant
program
but
it
is
not
working
as
it
should
.
{sent}
is
he
prepared
to
review
that
program
and
make
the
necessary
changes
to
ensure
an
adequate
supply
of
fish
to
those
plants
and
protect
the
jobs
of
those
workers
?
{sent}
if
i
understand
the
hon.
gentleman
correctly
,
he
is
asking
the
government
to
review
the
program
with
a
view
to
looking
at
those
objective
criteria
once
again
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
where
the
minister
might
be
in
that
review
process
,
but
i
will
certainly
draw
the
hon.
gentleman
's
representations
to
his
attention
as
soon
as
he
returns
to
the
house
.
{sent}
newfoundland
government
's
middle-distance
fleet
licensing
application
{sent}
i
want
to
know
where
those
licences
stand
.
{sent}
is
the
government
of
canada
going
to
issue
licences
to
the
government
of
newfoundland
for
that
new
middle-distance
fleet
?
{sent}
hon.
erik
nielsen
(
deputy
prime
minister
and
minister
of
national
defence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
sure
the
hon.
gentleman
would
not
expect
me
to
have
that
kind
of
detail
in
the
house
today
.
{sent}
i
shall
certainly
bring
that
matter
as
well
to
the
attention
of
the
minister
as
soon
as
he
returns
.
{sent}
expo
86
{sent}
refusal
of
visitors'
visas
{sent}
mr.
ian
waddell
(
vancouver
--
kingsway
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
premier
of
british
columbia
has
invited
the
world
to
come
to
expo
86
.
{sent}
that
is
terrific
.
{sent}
however
,
for
the
government
of
canada
that
apparently
does
not
include
the
third
world
.
{sent}
we
are
also
aware
that
where
there
are
visitor
visa
provisions
in
place
,
the
officers
dealing
with
these
cases
should
be
particularly
sensitive
to
the
circumstances
of
expo
86
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
problems
of
quebec
potato
producers
{sent}
as
to
the
observation
about
the
problems
in
quebec
,
i
would
be
pleased
to
present
that
particular
position
to
the
minister
who
is
absent
on
government
duty
.
{sent}
request
for
immediate
assistance
{sent}
mr.
jacques
guilbault
(
saint-jacques
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
glad
the
minister
realizes
there
is
a
difficult
situation
in
quebec
,
but
it
seems
to
me
the
government
could
do
more
.
{sent}
why
is
it
helping
only
two
of
the
potato
producing
provinces
--
not
that
i
disapprove
of
helping
prince
edward
island
and
new
brunswick
,
--
but
only
has
words
of
sympathy
for
quebec
producers
?
{sent}
we
would
like
immediate
assistance
.
{sent}
hon.
gerald
s.
merrithew
(
minister
of
state
(
forestry
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
importance
of
the
potatato
producers
in
those
two
provinces
of
prince
edward
island
and
new
brunswick
is
very
significant
.
{sent}
they
had
very
real
problems
in
putting
in
this
year
's
crop
.
{sent}
however
,
i
will
take
the
hon.
member
's
representations
to
the
minister
.
{sent}
forestry
{sent}
inquiry
if
new
developments
occurred
following
canada-quebec
agreement
on
genetics
of
small
plants
sought
by
quebec
{sent}
mr.
gabriel
fontaine
(
lévis
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
(
forestry
)
.
{sent}
have
there
been
any
significant
developments
in
the
genetics
of
small
plants
,
in
co-operation
with
the
quebec
private
sector
,
since
the
agreement
was
signed
?
{sent}
i
believe
that
the
first
run
of
seeds
from
that
particular
strain
will
be
available
this
year
.
{sent}
forestry
{sent}
request
for
establishment
of
separate
department
{sent}
ms.
pauline
jewett
(
new
westminster
--
coquitlam
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
also
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
forestry
.
{sent}
it
must
be
his
day
today
.
{sent}
is
he
aware
that
his
colleague
,
the
chairman
of
the
standing
committee
on
environment
and
forestry
,
has
called
for
the
creation
of
a
complete
department
of
forestry
which
would
be
a
line
department
?
{sent}
will
he
tell
us
when
this
will
come
about
?
{sent}
if
and
when
any
changes
in
the
machinery
or
structure
of
government
are
made
,
it
will
be
announced
by
the
prime
minister
at
the
appropriate
time
and
in
the
appropriate
place
.
{sent}
inquiry
of
minister
{sent}
hon.
erik
nielsen
(
deputy
prime
minister
and
minister
of
national
defence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
again
i
can
only
reiterate
my
last
answer
.
{sent}
however
,
i
am
sure
all
members
of
the
house
will
agree
when
i
tell
the
hon.
member
that
we
have
a
very
able
,
excellent
,
talented
,
and
gifted
minister
of
state
for
forestry
now
.
{sent}
occupational
health
and
safety
{sent}
smoking
in
federal
buildings
--
government
appeal
against
board
decision
{sent}
hon.
chas.
l.
caccia
(
davenport
)
:
i
have
a
question
for
the
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
to
brighten
up
his
morning
and
inject
some
life
into
it
.
{sent}
will
he
stop
the
appeal
?
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
had
a
wonderful
morning
and
i
have
met
very
many
interesting
people
.
{sent}
i
hope
my
contribution
to
the
hon.
member
's
morning
will
finally
give
him
some
light
as
well
.
{sent}
we
are
encouraging
federal
departments
to
follow
the
lead
that
has
been
taken
,
not
only
in
my
department
but
in
a
few
other
agencies
and
departments
of
government
as
well
,
and
simply
declare
workplace
areas
"
smoke
free
"
.
{sent}
that
created
some
difficulties
--
not
the
principle
that
we
would
like
to
see
smoke-free
areas
throughout
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
reasons
for
appeal
{sent}
why
the
appeal
if
he
means
what
he
says
?
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
mean
exactly
what
i
said
.
{sent}
i
just
explained
it
.
{sent}
if
the
hon.
member
wants
to
attend
at
noon
when
i
speak
to
another
group
,
he
will
see
that
i
will
be
saying
the
same
thing
.
{sent}
airports
{sent}
ottawa
international
airport
renovations
{sent}
mr.
barry
turner
(
ottawa
--
carleton
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
absence
of
the
minister
of
transport
my
question
is
directed
to
the
government
house
leader
.
{sent}
as
we
know
,
the
ottawa
international
airport
is
still
undergoing
considerable
renovations
and
will
be
for
some
time
,
at
great
inconvenience
to
its
users
.
{sent}
when
can
we
expect
to
see
some
use
of
the
new
facilities
at
the
airport
which
have
been
under
construction
for
a
very
long
time
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
hon.
ray
hnatyshyn
(
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
as
they
say
out
at
the
ottawa
international
airport
,
tempus
fugit
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
what
year
?
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
in
1986
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
canadian
home
insulation
program
{sent}
phasing
out
of
program
--
committee
report
{sent}
mr.
jean-robert
gauthier
(
ottawa
--
vanier
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
.
{sent}
a
communique
put
out
by
the
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
criticizes
the
phasing
out
of
the
canadian
home
insulation
program
.
{sent}
they
go
so
far
as
to
say
that
the
committee
believes
the
powers
and
action
of
the
minister
:
{sent}
--
were
not
authorized
by
the
--
legislation
,
amounted
to
an
unusal
use
of
the
powers
granted
by
parliament
,
and
infringed
the
rule
of
law
and
the
principles
of
fairness
and
natural
justice
.
{sent}
what
will
the
minister
do
about
this
unanimous
report
of
the
committee
?
{sent}
hon.
pat
carney
(
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
report
has
been
drawn
to
my
attention
.
{sent}
it
is
my
view
that
it
has
been
based
on
misleading
and
inaccurate
analyses
of
the
situation
.
{sent}
it
suggests
that
these
measures
were
--
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
it
is
a
unanimous
report
.
{sent}
miss
carney
:
you
asked
the
question
,
maybe
i
could
answer
.
{sent}
it
suggests
that
these
measures
were
announced
by
press
release
without
cabinet
approval
.
{sent}
these
measures
were
not
announced
by
me
,
they
were
announced
by
the
minister
of
finance
on
november
8
,
on
behalf
of
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
.
{sent}
they
were
tabled
in
the
house
in
the
blue
book
of
that
date
.
{sent}
the
suggestion
that
anyone
lost
a
benefit
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
financial
institutions
{sent}
imasco
takeover
of
genstar
--
role
of
canada
trust
--
self-dealing
inquiry
{sent}
hon.
edward
broadbent
(
oshawa
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
that
she
would
not
deliberately
mislead
the
house
.
{sent}
earlier
i
asked
her
if
it
was
the
case
that
one
subsidiary
of
imasco
--
canada
trust
--
could
make
a
loan
to
another
imasco
subsidiary
,
namely
,
imperial
tobacco
,
at
the
end
of
next
year
.
{sent}
the
minister
replied
that
it
was
not
possible
because
there
was
an
agreement
by
imasco
not
to
allow
that
.
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
apologize
to
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
there
is
a
general
clause
in
the
agreement
that
takes
effect
at
the
end
of
december
,
1987
.
{sent}
as
the
house
knows
,
our
intent
is
to
put
in
place
laws
of
general
application
and
,
with
my
optimistic
nature
,
hopefully
it
will
be
long
before
then
and
will
apply
in
this
case
.
{sent}
minister
's
position
{sent}
hon.
edward
broadbent
(
oshawa
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
the
minister
to
be
perfectly
clear
about
what
is
at
stake
here
with
this
takeover
.
{sent}
in
terms
of
existing
law
,
the
concerns
of
committee
members
on
both
sides
of
the
house
are
still
going
to
be
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
may
i
have
a
question
,
please
?
{sent}
mr.
broadbent
:
we
are
being
asked
to
buy
a
pig
in
a
poke
.
{sent}
that
is
what
the
government
is
doing
.
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
there
is
no
pig
and
there
is
no
poke
.
{sent}
this
company
has
made
a
real
undertaking
to
conform
to
our
public
policy
requirements
.
{sent}
it
did
so
at
our
request
and
we
worked
very
hard
to
bring
about
this
arrangement
.
{sent}
legislation
is
forthcoming
that
will
apply
to
this
and
other
companies
as
well
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
unscrupulous
immigration
consultants
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
immigration
.
{sent}
he
has
made
it
public
that
he
is
trying
to
rid
the
system
of
phoney
refugees
.
{sent}
yet
there
is
growing
concern
that
much
of
the
problem
lies
with
unscrupulous
immigration
consultants
who
are
scheming
fraudulent
schemes
against
innocent
individuals
.
{sent}
is
the
minister
prepared
also
to
rid
the
system
of
phony
consultants
?
{sent}
and
is
he
prepared
to
ask
his
colleague
,
the
solicitor
general
,
to
persecute
and
charge
such
individuals
--
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
you
have
a
persecution
complex
.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
prosecute
--
some
of
whom
his
department
knows
about
?
{sent}
mr.
hees
:
liberals
persecute
.
{sent}
as
the
hon.
member
knows
,
the
rcmp
at
the
moment
are
investigating
the
matter
.
{sent}
i
would
ask
the
hon.
member
and
others
to
provide
information
which
may
permit
action
to
be
taken
.
{sent}
i
also
want
to
say
that
i
have
been
in
touch
with
particularly
the
portuguese
community
and
others
to
assure
them
that
this
particular
action
is
regrettable
and
we
are
seeking
to
take
whatever
action
is
necessary
.
{sent}
i
might
remind
the
hon.
member
that
the
previous
government
conducted
a
study
of
this
matter
and
was
unable
to
act
.
{sent}
he
might
like
to
acquaint
himself
with
the
report
which
was
tabled
by
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg-fort
garry
.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
a
short
question
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
no.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
tomorrow
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
do
you
feel
persecuted
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
statements
by
ministers
{sent}
routine
proceedings
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
government
response
{sent}
procedure
and
organization
{sent}
tabling
of
government
response
to
first
report
of
standing
committee
{sent}
statements
by
ministers
{sent}
organ
donor
awareness
week
{sent}
minister
's
statement
{sent}
recipients
of
family
allowance
cheques
will
find
with
their
cheques
this
month
a
leaflet
on
organ
donation
with
a
detachable
organ
donor
card
.
{sent}
information
kits
have
been
distributed
to
the
media
and
most
canadian
hospitals
alerting
them
to
the
importance
of
organ
donation
and
transplantation
and
providing
them
with
resource
items
to
facilitate
their
involvement
.
{sent}
i
shall
officially
launch
the
week
at
a
news
conference
in
halifax
on
monday
.
{sent}
today
thousands
of
canadians
are
awaiting
a
transplant
which
will
improve
the
quality
of
their
life
.
{sent}
for
many
of
these
people
a
transplant
offers
them
the
only
chance
for
survival
.
{sent}
however
,
many
will
not
receive
that
transplant
because
there
are
not
enough
organs
and
tissues
available
.
{sent}
i
,
therefore
,
urge
all
hon.
members
to
make
a
personal
commitment
to
organ
donation
and
to
do
what
they
can
to
encourage
organ
donation
in
their
constituencies
.
{sent}
please
sign
a
donor
card
or
the
donor
card
portion
of
your
driver
's
licence
.
{sent}
please
inform
your
family
and
doctor
about
your
wishes
.
{sent}
consider
what
you
can
do
to
make
something
good
happen
by
giving
the
most
generous
gift
of
all
,
the
gift
of
life
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
very
important
to
publicize
organ
donations
,
because
a
substantial
number
of
canadian
men
and
women
depend
on
such
donations
in
order
to
survive
or
to
substantially
improve
their
quality
of
life
.
{sent}
the
example
of
diane
hébert
will
help
to
convince
people
that
an
organ
donation
can
be
a
real
success
.
{sent}
this
young
woman
waited
more
than
two
years
for
a
heart-lung
transplant
.
{sent}
today
,
she
is
asking
to
have
transplants
made
easier
by
giving
people
the
option
of
indicating
their
desire
to
make
organ
donations
on
their
health
insurance
cards
.
{sent}
this
month
,
family
allowance
cheque
recipients
will
receive
a
leaflet
urging
them
to
make
organ
donations
.
{sent}
i
too
want
to
urge
them
to
make
organ
donations
and
i
would
also
ask
all
my
colleagues
in
our
three
political
groups
here
in
the
house
and
everyone
in
the
beautiful
riding
of
outremont
to
do
likewise
.
{sent}
an
organ
donation
is
truly
a
gift
of
life
.
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops-shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
a
pleasure
to
respond
on
behalf
of
my
colleagues
in
the
new
democratic
party
in
support
of
the
initiative
of
the
minister
.
{sent}
we
congratulate
him
for
the
statement
he
has
made
in
the
house
today
urging
all
canadians
to
participate
in
the
donation
of
organs
for
this
most
valuable
reason
.
{sent}
indeed
,
it
is
a
wonder
of
science
that
enables
us
to
make
this
ultimate
gesture
,
the
giving
of
life
itself
.
{sent}
the
minister
has
identified
next
week
as
being
national
donor
awareness
week
.
{sent}
perhaps
as
members
of
parliament
we
can
pledge
our
own
organs
next
week
as
a
dedication
to
science
and
transplantation
purposes
.
{sent}
again
,
we
applaud
the
minister
for
this
initiative
and
we
will
encourage
our
constituents
to
follow
suit
.
{sent}
point
of
order
{sent}
point
of
order
{sent}
request
for
government
response
to
report
of
standing
committee
{sent}
mr.
dan
heap
(
spadina
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
he
has
already
violated
that
obligation
once
by
refusing
to
submit
a
comprehensive
response
to
a
previous
report
.
{sent}
he
promised
then
that
he
would
do
the
two
together
at
this
time
.
{sent}
i
received
a
letter
from
him
in
which
he
says
he
is
not
ready
and
will
do
it
later
.
{sent}
i
want
to
ask
you
,
mr.
speaker
,
if
you
will
refer
this
matter
to
what
i
believe
is
a
new
committee
,
the
committee
on
elections
,
privileges
and
procedure
because
this
is
not
the
first
time
that
this
minister
has
breached
this
standing
order
.
{sent}
if
you
wish
to
reserve
on
this
matter
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
be
glad
to
have
your
response
.
{sent}
he
went
on
to
make
reference
to
the
quality
or
content
of
that
particular
response
.
{sent}
i
do
not
believe
that
is
an
appropriate
point
of
order
.
{sent}
the
point
of
order
,
however
,
is
out
of
order
because
there
has
been
a
compliance
and
response
by
the
minister
on
each
of
these
two
occasions
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
it
is
appropriate
for
us
to
comment
on
the
quality
of
these
responses
.
{sent}
mr.
heap
:
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
is
already
on
one
point
of
order
.
{sent}
i
presume
he
wants
me
to
finish
this
one
before
he
raises
another
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
on
the
same
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
mr.
heap
:
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
on
a
separate
point
of
order
?
{sent}
mr.
heap
:
no
,
on
the
same
point
of
order
.
{sent}
i
did
give
you
the
facts
as
contained
in
the
letter
of
the
minister
,
if
a
page
will
bring
it
to
you
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
yes
,
of
course
,
the
hon.
member
may
send
me
what
he
has
.
{sent}
mr.
heap
:
the
word
"
comprehensive
"
is
a
joke
if
this
is
a
comprehensive
answer
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
committee
reports
{sent}
committees
of
the
house
{sent}
striking
--
twenty-ninth
and
thirtieth
reports
of
standing
committee
{sent}
mr.
scott
fennell
(
ontario
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
the
honour
to
present
,
in
both
official
languages
,
the
twenty-ninth
and
thirtieth
reports
of
the
striking
committee
.
{sent}
pension
benefits
standards
act
,
1985
{sent}
presentation
of
report
of
legislative
committee
{sent}
mr.
bob
brisco
(
kootenay
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
the
honour
to
present
,
in
both
official
languages
,
the
legislative
committee
report
on
bill
c-90
.
{sent}
(
editor
's
note
:
for
above
,
see
today
's
votes
and
proceedings
.
)
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
reinstatement
of
katimavik
program
{sent}
use
of
pension
income
in
calculation
of
uic
benefits
{sent}
hon.
william
rompkey
(
grand
falls
--
white
bay
--
labrador
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
wish
to
present
a
petition
on
behalf
of
several
hundred
constituents
in
my
riding
.
{sent}
it
is
with
respect
to
the
issue
of
pension
funds
now
being
considered
as
income
for
unemployment
insurance
purposes
.
{sent}
they
call
upon
the
house
to
encourage
the
government
to
change
this
unfair
and
inequitable
practice
.
{sent}
order
paper
questions
{sent}
questions
on
the
order
paper
{sent}
(
questions
answered
orally
are
indicated
by
an
asterisk
.
)
{sent}
mr.
doug
lewis
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.speaker
,
the
following
questions
will
be
answered
today
:
523
,
525
and
526
.
{sent}
post-harvest
treatment
of
fruits
and
vegetables
{sent}
question
no.
523
--
mr.
caccia
:
{sent}
1
.
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
3
.
{sent}
are
toxicity
tests
conducted
on
the
chemicals
in
canada
or
in
the
united
states
and
,
if
so
by
(
a
)
government
(
b
)
private
laboratory
?
{sent}
4
.
{sent}
are
the
results
of
toxicity
tests
available
to
the
public
and
,
if
so
,
how
is
the
public
informed
of
the
contents
and
hazards
of
any
of
the
chemicals
used
?
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
1
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
the
"
waxy
"
coating
protects
against
the
invasion
of
spoilage
micro-organisms
.
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
(
a
)
and
(
b
)
all
of
these
substances
fall
within
the
purview
of
the
canadian
food
and
drugs
act
and
regulations
administered
by
health
and
welfare
canada
(
hwc
)
.
{sent}
mineral
oil
,
petrolatum
and
paraffin
are
regulated
as
food
additives
under
the
food
and
drug
regulations
.
{sent}
3
.
{sent}
(
a
)
and
(
b
)
various
types
of
toxicological
tests
have
been
conducted
on
all
the
substances
mentioned
in
(
1
)
above
.
{sent}
as
a
general
rule
,
hpb
does
not
undertake
toxicity
studies
to
support
the
use
of
chemicals
in
food
but
rather
evaluates
all
available
data
which
may
have
been
produced
by
a
variety
of
sources
.
{sent}
in
the
case
of
these
coatings
,
toxicity
data
are
available
from
private
laboratories
,
universities
,
et
cetera
in
various
countries
including
the
united
states
,
canada
and
europe
.
{sent}
4
.
{sent}
many
of
the
toxicity
studies
available
on
these
substances
are
published
in
the
scientific
literature
and
thus
are
available
to
the
public
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
hpb
is
prepared
to
offer
additional
comments
on
the
safety
aspects
of
any
of
these
chemicals
.
{sent}
substances
considered
to
pose
a
hazard
to
consumers
would
not
be
permitted
for
use
under
existing
regulatory
authority
.
{sent}
employment
levels
in
coal
producing
areas
of
b.c.
{sent}
question
no.
525
--
mr.
broadbent
:
{sent}
1
.
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
what
actions
and
/
or
representations
did
the
government
initiate
to
encourage
the
japanese
government
to
review
coal
purchasing
policies
by
japanese
steel
companies
in
british
columbia
?
{sent}
3
.
{sent}
hon.
ray
hnatyshyn
(
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
i
am
informed
by
the
departments
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
and
employment
and
immigration
as
follows
:
{sent}
1
.
{sent}
in
july
,
1985
,
an
initial
industrial
adjustment
service
(
ias
)
agreement
was
signed
.
{sent}
the
joint
committee
is
responsible
to
seek
out
employment
opportunities
for
more
than
80
senior
staff
members
(
managers
,
administrators
,
professionals
,
etc.
)
.
{sent}
to
date
,
over
50
employees
have
been
placed
with
other
companies
in
the
area
.
{sent}
at
the
same
time
,
a
second
ias
agreement
was
signed
on
behalf
of
approximately
300
workers
,
members
of
either
the
united
mine
workers
or
the
office
and
technical
employees
union
.
{sent}
limited
success
has
been
achieved
for
this
group
;
howerver
,
job
opportunities
continue
to
be
sought
(
e.g.
the
expected
reopening
of
the
faro
mine
)
.
{sent}
a
joint
company
/
ceic
-
ias
human
resource
planing
agreement
is
in
place
to
deal
with
future
planning
and
adjustment
developments
.
{sent}
fording
coal
ltd.
this
operation
has
stabilized
and
ocntinues
with
a
work
force
of
some
1400
.
{sent}
line
creek
-
crows
nest
resources
ltd.
an
effective
working
relationship
has
been
established
between
this
operation
and
the
b.c.
region
.
{sent}
a
joint
memorandum
of
understanding
has
been
signed
to
deal
with
future
planning
and
adjustment
developments
concerning
the
company
's
700
employees
.
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
the
federal
government
's
policy
with
respect
to
coal
,
and
for
many
ofther
commodities
,
has
been
to
leave
the
commercial
and
financial
details
of
contracts
to
the
private
sector
participants
.
{sent}
in
line
with
the
above
policy
,
the
coal
purchasing
policies
of
the
japanese
steel
companies
in
b.c.
were
not
discussed
.
{sent}
3
.
{sent}
at
the
january
,
1986
meeting
between
the
prime
ministers
of
japan
and
canada
,
several
issues
germane
to
the
canaidna
resource
sector
generally
were
raised
.
{sent}
with
respect
to
coal
,
it
was
noted
that
canada
as
a
whole
is
committed
to
remaining
a
reliable
supplier
of
coal
to
japan
.
{sent}
coal
exports
to
japan
{sent}
question
no.
526
--
mr.
broadbent
:
{sent}
what
was
the
value
and
quantity
of
coal
exported
to
japan
over
the
past
three
years
from
the
(
a
)
northeast
coal
fields
(
b
)
southeast
coal
fields
in
british
columbia
?
{sent}
mr.
john
mcdermid
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
)
:
{sent}
8
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
i
ask
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
the
remainning
questions
be
allowed
to
stand
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
questions
enumerated
by
the
hon.
parliamentary
secretary
have
been
answered
.
{sent}
shall
the
remaining
questions
stand
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
canadian
arsenals
limited
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
canadian
arsenals
limited
divestiture
authorization
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
first
,
i
would
like
to
advise
the
house
that
because
of
the
ministerial
statement
government
orders
will
be
extended
by
five
minutes
today
after
one
o'clock
.
{sent}
there
are
five
motions
on
this
day
's
order
paper
relating
to
bill
c-87
.
{sent}
i
have
had
the
opportunity
to
examine
the
said
motions
and
find
that
they
are
all
in
order
.
{sent}
they
will
be
proceeded
with
as
follows
.
{sent}
motions
nos.
1
,
2
and
3
will
be
grouped
for
debate
.
{sent}
since
motion
no.
3
is
consequential
to
motion
no.
1
,
a
vote
on
motion
no.
1
will
apply
to
motion
no.
3
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
could
we
get
a
copy
of
that
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
has
this
not
been
distributed
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
a
vote
on
motion
no.
1
will
dispose
of
motion
no.
2
.
{sent}
motions
nos.
4
and
5
are
identical
.
{sent}
the
chair
will
select
motion
no.
4
which
will
be
debated
and
voted
on
separately
.
{sent}
i
apologize
for
the
notice
not
having
been
distributed
in
time
to
hon.
members
.
{sent}
hon.
stewart
mcinnes
(
minister
of
supply
and
services
)
moved
:
{sent}
motion
no.
1
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
by
adding
immediately
after
line
34
at
page
5
the
following
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
(
a
)
immediately
before
the
coming
into
force
of
this
section
,
the
person
was
employed
by
the
corporation
and
was
a
contributor
under
the
public
service
superannuation
act
;
{sent}
(
2
)
an
election
referred
to
in
paragraph
(1)(e
)
is
irrevocable
.
{sent}
(
3
)
the
governor
in
council
may
,
in
relation
to
persons
who
make
the
election
referred
to
in
paragraph
(1)(e
)
,
make
regulations
{sent}
(
a
)
specifying
which
provisions
of
the
acts
and
regulations
mentioned
in
subsection
(
1
)
apply
,
and
to
what
extent
they
apply
;
{sent}
(
b
)
adapting
provisions
of
those
acts
and
regulations
for
the
purposes
of
this
section
;
and
{sent}
(
c
)
generally
for
carrying
out
the
purposes
of
this
section
.
{sent}
(
4
)
regulations
made
under
subsection
(
3
)
may
be
made
applicable
on
and
after
a
day
before
their
publication
if
they
so
provide
.
"
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry-prescott-russell
)
moved
:
{sent}
motion
no.
2
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
by
adding
immediately
after
line
34
at
page
5
the
following
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
an
employee
of
the
corporation
,
as
of
the
day
prior
to
the
date
of
transfer
,
will
have
the
right
,
on
transferring
to
the
new
employer
,
either
to
:
{sent}
(
b
)
become
a
contributor
to
the
pension
plan
as
described
in
the
agreement
of
purchase
and
sale
between
the
government
and
the
new
employer
.
"
{sent}
hon.
stewart
mcinnes
(
minister
of
supply
and
services
)
moved
:
{sent}
motion
no.
3
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
in
clause
12
by
striking
out
line
35
at
page
5
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
subsection
3(2)
and
section
9
to
12
"
.
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
it
is
quite
unrelated
to
the
matter
before
the
house
,
but
it
is
something
which
has
been
the
subject
of
discussion
and
agreement
between
the
parties
.
{sent}
it
has
to
do
with
the
special
committee
on
the
pricing
of
domestic
wheat
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
take
it
that
the
president
of
the
privy
council
seeks
unanimous
consent
to
revert
to
motions
.
{sent}
is
it
agreed
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
canadian
arsenals
limited
{sent}
routine
proceedings
{sent}
special
committee
on
the
pricing
of
domestic
wheat
{sent}
power
to
travel
to
winnipeg
--
reporting
date
{sent}
hon.
ray
hnatyshyn
(
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
your
honour
will
find
a
disposition
to
receive
at
this
point
in
time
the
following
draft
order
and
to
approve
it
without
debate
.
{sent}
it
reads
as
follows
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
canadian
arsenals
limited
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
canadian
arsenals
limited
divestiture
authorization
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
mr.
bud
bradley
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
supply
and
services
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
at
this
time
to
speak
to
the
amendments
to
bill
c-87
.
{sent}
the
pension
situation
of
employees
involved
in
the
privatization
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
,
both
in
terms
of
accrued
pension
benefits
and
future
pension
expectations
,
has
been
of
significant
concern
to
the
government
.
{sent}
as
a
consequence
,
the
government
has
concluded
that
a
further
measure
of
protection
should
be
added
.
{sent}
therefore
,
it
has
tabled
a
motion
to
amend
bill
c-87
accordingly
.
{sent}
as
i
am
sure
hon.
members
will
appreciate
,
the
degree
of
control
that
the
government
can
exercise
over
the
pension
entitlements
earned
by
cal
employees
through
future
employment
with
snc
is
limited
.
{sent}
it
would
not
be
appropriate
for
government
to
intervene
unduly
with
the
flexibility
of
management
and
employees
to
arrive
at
mutually-acceptable
terms
and
conditions
of
employment
over
the
long
term
.
{sent}
nor
would
it
be
consistent
with
privatization
to
allow
the
employees
to
continue
to
be
covered
under
the
pension
plan
for
federal
public
servants
for
service
after
the
date
of
sale
.
{sent}
in
its
briefing
before
the
parliamentary
committee
,
snc
clearly
indicated
that
it
will
fulfil
both
of
these
requirements
.
{sent}
the
transfer
of
portability
option
,
which
i
have
just
described
,
will
appeal
to
some
cal
employees
;
but
there
are
two
other
important
options
which
will
also
be
made
available
to
every
employee
.
{sent}
the
first
of
these
would
be
the
normal
options
available
to
employees
on
ceasing
to
be
contributors
under
the
pssa
.
{sent}
employees
will
be
able
to
choose
to
receive
whatever
benefit
would
be
available
to
them
under
the
terms
of
the
pssa
as
though
they
were
ceasing
to
be
employed
on
the
date
the
corporation
is
sold
.
{sent}
the
choice
available
to
the
individual
will
,
of
course
,
depend
upon
his
or
her
age
and
length
of
pensionable
service
.
{sent}
the
other
option
the
government
is
seeking
to
make
available
to
cal
employees
through
the
present
motion
to
amend
bill
c-87
is
based
on
the
concept
of
continuity
of
service
for
benefit
eligibility
.
{sent}
on
ceasing
to
be
employed
with
the
purchasing
employer
,
the
employee
would
then
opt
for
benefits
under
the
selling
employer
's
pension
plan
.
{sent}
while
he
or
she
would
not
have
earned
further
pension
under
the
old
plan
,
the
employee
would
use
the
second
employment
toward
qualifying
for
benefits
.
{sent}
perhaps
i
could
give
an
example
that
might
make
this
clearer
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
the
individual
has
been
able
to
preserve
his
ability
to
meet
the
50-30
threshold
.
{sent}
obviously
this
option
may
well
appeal
to
some
employees
,
depending
upon
their
personal
plans
and
expectations
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
add
one
final
comment
on
this
particular
option
.
{sent}
as
hon.
members
are
aware
,
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
is
currently
consulting
his
advisory
committee
on
the
public
service
superannuation
act
on
broad
questions
of
public
service
pension
reform
.
{sent}
finally
,
i
would
like
to
stress
that
in
all
instances
,
employees
will
have
one
year
from
the
point
of
sale
to
select
the
options
they
prefer
.
{sent}
complex
questions
are
involved
and
it
is
intended
that
each
individual
will
be
provided
with
the
appropriate
information
and
counselling
to
make
the
best
possible
personal
decision
.
{sent}
under
the
privatization
arrangements
proposed
by
the
government
,
cal
employees
have
a
number
of
options
with
respect
to
pensions
.
{sent}
the
first
option
is
to
transfer
accrued
pension
benefits
to
the
new
snc
pension
plan
under
reciprocal
transfer
arrangements
.
{sent}
this
transfer
would
be
done
on
an
actuarial
,
ongoing
basis
and
negotations
are
under
way
to
guarantee
that
all
amounts
transferred
will
be
for
the
sole
and
exclusive
benefit
of
transferring
employees
.
{sent}
depending
upon
the
age
and
service
of
employees
,
there
are
other
options
.
{sent}
the
second
is
a
return
of
contributions
plus
interest
.
{sent}
the
third
is
a
deferred
annuity
at
age
60
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
if
there
is
unanimous
consent
,
i
will
allow
it
.
{sent}
is
there
such
unanimous
consent
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
that
there
is
no
unanimous
consent
.
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
pleased
to
participate
in
this
debate
on
report
stage
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
i
am
not
sure
that
the
phrase
"
more
generous
"
is
an
appropriate
one
under
the
circumstances
.
{sent}
the
best
way
to
describe
it
would
be
to
say
that
these
amendments
make
it
not
quite
as
bad
as
it
used
to
be
.
{sent}
i
challenge
the
hon.
member
to
say
that
had
the
opposition
not
brought
some
of
these
issues
to
the
attention
of
the
committee
we
would
not
have
seen
very
many
amendments
to
this
legislation
.
{sent}
i
must
say
that
i
am
anxiously
awaiting
the
remarks
of
the
hon.
member
for
terrebonne
(
mr.
toupin
)
who
represents
almost
all
the
people
affected
by
this
bill
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
he
will
speak
vividly
and
forcefully
in
this
particular
debate
in
order
to
ensure
that
his
constituents
get
all
the
benefits
they
deserve
.
{sent}
i
must
say
that
i
am
a
little
disappointed
that
we
did
not
hear
from
him
at
committee
,
but
perhaps
there
is
still
time
for
that
today
.
{sent}
at
issue
today
is
not
snc
.
{sent}
i
think
it
has
made
its
reputation
in
the
past
and
we
know
it
to
be
what
most
people
would
consider
a
good
employer
.
{sent}
during
the
committee
hearings
,
members
of
the
committee
asked
representatives
of
the
public
service
alliance
what
they
were
asking
for
their
employees
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
they
are
members
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
the
hon.
members
across
the
way
say
quite
correctly
that
they
are
members
of
that
alliance
but
they
are
our
employees
.
{sent}
they
are
our
constituents
and
it
is
our
duty
as
members
of
the
house
of
commons
to
take
care
of
their
concerns
and
to
act
toward
them
in
the
best
way
possible
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
used
the
example
of
an
employee
who
had
worked
for
the
public
service
alliance
for
25
years
.
{sent}
he
described
how
the
50-30
threshold
would
be
achieved
under
the
amendment
brought
before
us
in
motion
no.
1
.
{sent}
that
may
be
well
and
good
.
{sent}
there
is
really
only
one
solution
to
this
dilemma
.
{sent}
i
submit
that
that
solution
is
motion
no.
2
which
i
have
put
before
the
house
.
{sent}
motion
no.
2
asks
for
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
to
be
given
the
same
benefits
that
the
government
has
given
to
employees
of
other
companies
which
have
been
divested
in
the
past
.
{sent}
in
particular
,
i
want
the
same
benefits
which
we
as
a
parliament
gave
when
the
deer
lodge
hospital
and
several
other
institutions
were
transferred
from
the
federal
government
to
other
jurisdictions
.
{sent}
it
does
not
matter
whether
the
other
jurisdictions
were
provincial
entities
or
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
the
point
is
still
the
same
;
our
employees
are
being
transferred
elsewhere
.
{sent}
there
are
two
ways
in
which
this
could
be
achieved
.
{sent}
for
example
,
the
employees
could
continue
to
contribute
toward
the
federal
plan
,
even
though
they
were
no
longer
federal
employees
,
with
snc
contributing
its
share
.
{sent}
the
government
indicated
that
that
would
not
be
possible
because
it
would
create
a
precedent
.
{sent}
i
do
not
agree
,
but
,
nevertheless
,
the
government
has
taken
that
position
.
{sent}
the
public
service
alliance
has
indicated
that
it
is
prepared
to
go
along
with
my
motion
no.
2
.
{sent}
all
existing
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
could
then
continue
contributing
until
retirement
.
{sent}
of
course
any
other
employee
or
new
employee
of
snc
would
not
be
in
the
same
situation
.
{sent}
it
would
provide
a
means
to
accommodate
those
government
employees
,
those
employees
of
a
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
there
is
a
clear
and
easy
way
to
accomplish
that
,
and
i
have
indicated
it
in
motion
no.
2
.
{sent}
the
minister
has
indicated
that
he
has
some
reluctance
with
the
amendment
because
there
would
then
be
two
classes
of
employees
at
snc
.
{sent}
in
his
view
there
would
be
those
employees
who
had
the
government
pension
plan
and
those
who
had
a
private
one
.
{sent}
that
will
be
the
case
anyway
.
{sent}
one
group
of
employees
will
have
two
pension
plans
,
one
based
on
their
number
of
years
in
the
public
service
and
the
other
based
on
their
number
of
years
with
snc
.
{sent}
the
other
group
would
have
just
the
snc
plan
.
{sent}
we
are
not
deciding
whether
there
will
be
two
levels
of
benefits
.
{sent}
we
know
it
already
and
we
cannot
change
it
.
{sent}
the
question
before
us
today
is
the
approval
of
motion
no.
2
which
would
provide
a
means
whereby
our
employees
,
those
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
,
would
be
able
to
continue
to
contribute
both
the
employee
's
share
and
the
employer
's
share
to
the
public
service
superannuation
plan
.
{sent}
the
employees
have
agreed
to
pay
both
shares
,
and
they
will
attempt
to
recover
some
,
if
not
all
,
of
those
funds
from
their
new
employer
through
the
collective
bargaining
process
.
{sent}
i
believe
it
is
a
very
reasonable
compromise
,
and
the
public
service
alliance
has
agreed
to
it
.
{sent}
certainly
it
is
one
with
which
the
government
can
live
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
what
we
are
trying
to
do
in
this
case
is
less
than
what
was
done
in
the
case
of
deer
lodge
hospital
.
{sent}
if
we
could
live
with
it
in
the
past
,
we
could
certainly
live
with
it
now
.
{sent}
it
is
not
a
precedent
setting
issue
at
all
.
{sent}
it
involves
fairness
on
the
part
of
us
collectively
toward
the
treatment
of
those
employees
.
{sent}
yesterday
i
referred
to
fair
treatment
of
employees
of
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
today
i
am
talking
about
employees
of
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
in
my
view
we
can
,
if
we
have
the
desire
and
political
will
,
achieve
this
result
with
little
or
no
difficulty
.
{sent}
before
dealing
specifically
with
motions
nos.
1
and
2
which
are
before
us
today
,
i
should
like
to
spend
a
moment
providing
some
background
on
the
bill
.
{sent}
many
months
ago
in
british
columbia
some
erroneous
correspondence
was
circulated
saying
that
i
was
in
great
support
of
the
privatization
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
.
{sent}
for
that
reason
i
will
refer
to
some
background
information
which
will
indicate
why
that
was
never
the
case
and
is
not
the
case
now
.
{sent}
mr.
riis
:
it
will
never
be
the
case
.
{sent}
mr.
fulton
:
it
will
never
be
the
case
.
{sent}
there
are
750
employees
at
le
gardeur
and
50
at
st.
augustin
.
{sent}
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
is
the
principal
union
with
about
570
of
the
employees
as
members
.
{sent}
the
federal
government
,
through
the
department
of
national
defence
,
is
the
company
's
largest
customer
,
responsible
for
some
90
per
cent
of
its
sales
.
{sent}
some
10
per
cent
of
its
sales
are
exported
.
{sent}
the
following
question
has
been
legitimately
and
properly
raised
by
the
workers
and
many
members
of
the
house
:
why
sell
it
?
{sent}
last
year
its
profits
totalled
well
in
excess
of
$
11
million
.
{sent}
at
that
time
it
was
ranked
as
no.
470
in
the
financial
post
top
500
in
terms
of
sales
.
{sent}
however
,
the
interesting
point
is
that
the
company
was
ranked
as
no.
3
in
canada
for
its
five-year
profit
growth
by
the
financial
post
.
{sent}
again
the
question
is
raised
:
why
sell
?
{sent}
according
to
the
projections
of
the
government
,
sales
are
expected
to
double
over
the
next
five
years
.
{sent}
the
sale
of
canadian
arsenals
requires
the
approval
of
parliament
,
unlike
corporations
under
cdic
such
as
de
havilland
.
{sent}
according
to
the
press
release
there
were
eight
bidders
and
snc
was
the
highest
.
{sent}
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
was
never
notified
of
the
government
's
intention
to
privatize
,
and
learned
of
it
only
through
press
reports
.
{sent}
that
is
a
matter
which
the
house
should
ponder
in
some
greater
detail
.
{sent}
why
did
that
take
place
,
and
what
kind
of
government
attitude
does
it
demonstrate
?
{sent}
key
questions
have
been
raised
by
the
workers
and
their
representatives
with
psac
on
the
issues
of
job
security
,
pensions
and
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
at
this
point
i
should
like
to
deal
with
the
two
particular
motions
before
us
.
{sent}
as
someone
very
active
on
the
question
of
pensions
and
unions
,
having
been
a
former
member
of
the
b.c.
government
employees'
union
,
i
have
some
concerns
about
motions
nos.
1
and
2
.
{sent}
paragraph
(
3
)
of
motion
no.
1
,
standing
in
the
name
of
the
minister
of
supply
and
services
(
mr.
mcinnes
)
,
reads
in
part
as
follows
:
{sent}
the
governor
in
council
may
,
in
relation
to
persons
who
make
the
election
referred
to
in
paragraph
(1)(e
)
,
make
regulations
--
{sent}
further
on
it
refers
to
very
vague
and
non-specific
regulatory
producing
powers
.
{sent}
it
also
does
not
group
the
pension
plans
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
i
think
workers
in
other
areas
of
crown
corporations
are
looking
to
see
what
happens
in
this
struggle
in
parliament
and
how
the
government
and
the
house
will
respond
to
a
very
real
dilemma
.
{sent}
they
have
to
look
at
costs
between
the
time
they
stop
working
and
the
time
they
pass
on
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
the
minister
and
government
members
who
have
spoken
have
not
really
taken
into
account
the
kind
of
bombshells
they
have
been
throwing
at
the
munitions
workers
.
{sent}
they
started
off
by
saying
:
"
you
will
have
to
divest
out
of
the
plan
--
cash
out
.
"
{sent}
then
the
government
moved
to
this
extremely
vague
proposal
which
allows
for
some
options
.
{sent}
by
being
so
non-specific
it
means
that
we
as
members
of
this
house
are
not
doing
the
job
we
should
be
doing
,
that
of
setting
a
blueprint
.
{sent}
regardless
of
which
party
we
belong
to
,
the
government
has
211
members
and
can
vote
through
whatever
it
wants
.
{sent}
the
government
has
done
a
terrible
job
in
responding
to
the
real
concerns
of
the
workers
.
{sent}
let
us
now
take
a
look
at
the
proposal
,
which
is
somewhat
better
,
motion
no.
2
,
brought
forward
by
the
hon.
member
who
just
spoke
.
{sent}
it
is
something
i
do
not
like
because
it
does
not
address
the
issue
of
pensions
head
on
.
{sent}
let
me
read
motion
no.
2
:
{sent}
an
employee
of
the
corporation
,
as
of
the
day
prior
to
the
date
of
transfer
,
will
have
the
right
,
on
transferring
to
the
new
employer
,
either
to
:
{sent}
(
a
)
choose
to
remain
and
continue
as
a
contributor
to
the
federal
superannuation
plan
--
{sent}
that
sounds
very
reasonable
.
{sent}
--
and
the
employee
will
pay
both
the
employee
's
and
the
employer
's
shares
of
the
required
contributions
to
the
plan
;
or
--
{sent}
i
want
to
come
back
to
that
part
of
the
motion
.
{sent}
(
b
)
become
a
contributor
to
the
pension
plan
as
described
in
the
agreement
of
purchase
and
sale
between
the
government
and
the
new
employer
{sent}
the
new
employer
is
snc
.
{sent}
let
me
come
back
to
paragraph
(
a
)
of
motion
no.
2
,
because
i
have
some
concerns
about
it
.
{sent}
i
am
not
as
concerned
as
with
the
government
amendment
,
but
it
is
one
that
i
think
could
really
benefit
from
some
clarity
and
drafting
in
that
this
will
force
the
workers
to
renegotiate
with
snc
as
a
result
of
paragraph
(
a
)
.
{sent}
it
says
the
employee
will
pay
both
the
employee
's
and
the
employer
's
shares
of
the
required
contribution
.
"
{sent}
x
"
being
the
annual
cost
to
the
employee
and
historically
to
the
employer
means
that
there
will
have
to
be
a
great
deal
of
pressure
brought
on
snc
to
live
up
to
this
.
{sent}
as
was
raised
by
the
hon.
member
who
just
said
down
,
the
government
,
even
under
the
present
administration
,
is
not
applying
the
same
kind
of
criteria
to
situations
that
are
similar
.
{sent}
it
all
depends
on
how
much
pressure
is
brought
on
them
,
and
what
kinds
of
co-operation
they
are
getting
from
the
purchaser
of
an
operation
such
as
canadian
arsenals
limited
,
and
what
kind
of
heat
is
created
in
the
house
of
commons
itself
.
{sent}
there
is
a
great
deal
more
than
could
and
should
be
done
.
{sent}
it
is
something
that
canadians
will
have
to
reflect
on
,
whether
or
not
this
is
truly
the
fairest
way
possible
for
this
kind
of
privatization
to
take
place
.
{sent}
the
government
has
a
majority
.
{sent}
the
house
will
recall
that
the
motion
we
are
now
considering
is
aimed
at
amending
bill
c-87
,
specifically
with
respect
to
the
matter
of
pensions
.
{sent}
we
do
not
have
that
guarantee
.
{sent}
we
do
not
have
much
information
dealing
with
the
pension
arrangements
.
{sent}
we
will
be
looking
forward
in
committee
to
getting
from
the
minister
some
of
the
answers
to
these
questions
.
{sent}
looking
at
motion
no.
1
,
i
see
that
the
person
,
namely
the
employee
--
i
will
read
subsection
12(e)
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
the
words
that
bother
me
are
"
in
such
form
and
manner
as
the
minister
directs
"
.
{sent}
but
no
!
{sent}
the
whole
thing
is
to
be
decided
by
the
minister
,
unilaterally
.
{sent}
in
this
case
,
i
find
the
proposed
changes
very
weak
and
narrow
in
their
application
since
negotiation
is
unilateral
.
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
by
adding
immediately
after
line
34
at
page
5
the
following
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
an
employee
of
the
corporation
,
as
of
the
day
prior
to
the
date
of
transfer
,
will
have
the
right
,
on
transferring
to
the
new
employer
--
{sent}
--
that
is
,
snc
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
that
is
truly
taking
the
bull
by
the
horns
.
{sent}
a
different
pension
which
,
as
i
understand
it
,
mr.
speaker
,
has
been
suggested
by
certain
people
,
would
also
be
a
solution
.
{sent}
i
do
not
want
to
revert
to
the
issue
of
whether
or
not
this
company
should
be
privatized
.
{sent}
a
decision
has
been
made
by
the
majority
of
the
house
of
commons
over
our
opposition
.
{sent}
we
must
now
talk
about
how
this
will
be
done
,
and
whether
it
will
be
done
fairly
with
regard
to
the
workers
.
{sent}
yet
,
until
the
government
was
forced
to
consider
the
matter
,
it
did
not
consider
that
to
be
a
problem
.
{sent}
a
crown
corporation
,
as
the
epitome
of
responsibility
,
should
provide
a
pattern
for
the
way
a
corporation
should
deal
with
its
employees
in
the
1980's
.
{sent}
we
have
some
specific
concerns
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
take
as
an
example
a
worker
aged
52
who
intends
to
work
until
the
age
of
57
or
58
before
retiring
.
{sent}
it
would
probably
be
prudent
for
that
worker
to
decide
to
keep
his
or
her
rights
in
the
public
service
pension
plan
because
of
the
indexation
and
other
features
.
{sent}
i
could
give
more
examples
like
that
,
and
i
seriously
regret
the
fact
that
the
parliamentary
secretary
was
not
prepared
to
permit
questioning
on
some
of
these
points
.
{sent}
he
forces
me
to
raise
them
in
debate
without
any
give
and
take
.
{sent}
after
i
asked
the
house
for
unanimous
consent
i
talked
to
the
parliamentary
secretary
.
{sent}
i
regret
to
say
that
he
remained
reluctant
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
the
parliamentary
secretary
must
know
that
since
the
agreement
of
sale
continues
to
be
a
secret
document
,
and
since
the
nuts
and
bolts
of
the
proposal
--
{sent}
mr.
daubney
:
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
it
has
been
made
public
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
it
has
been
been
made
public
?
{sent}
i
apologize
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
there
is
no
point
of
order
,
then
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
west
(
mr.
daubney
)
is
furthering
the
illusion
that
i
am
capable
of
being
in
all
committees
at
once
.
{sent}
i
do
my
best
,
and
i
also
trust
my
colleagues
on
these
particular
matters
.
{sent}
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
prince
albert
(
mr.
hovdebo
)
,
did
a
very
able
job
in
this
area
,
as
i
think
the
parliamentary
secretary
will
agree
.
{sent}
that
is
the
legal
position
no
matter
what
has
been
said
by
the
parliamentary
secretary
.
{sent}
i
have
respect
for
him
and
i
very
much
hope
this
government
,
which
has
not
kept
all
of
its
promises
,
honours
the
parliamentary
secretary
's
word
.
{sent}
i
know
he
will
do
that
personally
,
but
his
government
has
perhaps
a
little
more
clouded
reputation
than
he
has
as
an
individual
.
{sent}
as
a
legislative
draft
person
i
think
i
can
understand
why
these
things
are
there
.
{sent}
however
,
given
the
climate
of
unease
which
these
workers
feel
,
it
seems
to
me
at
the
very
least
we
could
have
had
the
regulations
perused
and
approved
in
advance
by
the
union
in
order
to
quiet
their
fears
.
{sent}
instead
of
that
,
we
have
effectively
a
blank
cheque
kind
of
situation
.
{sent}
at
least
that
is
how
it
is
perceived
.
{sent}
because
of
the
contentiousness
of
the
privatization
issue
,
we
have
to
look
at
perception
as
well
as
intention
.
{sent}
the
government
's
intentions
may
well
be
100
per
cent
honourable
.
{sent}
it
may
say
it
has
come
up
with
the
best
solution
it
could
.
{sent}
the
union
says
it
will
negotiate
to
get
the
employers'
share
paid
to
the
employees
so
they
can
pay
it
into
the
two
plans
concerned
.
{sent}
that
should
be
possible
and
it
is
a
better
way
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
can
support
the
recommendations
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
does
the
house
want
me
to
put
the
question
now
or
shall
we
wait
?
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
i
believe
there
are
other
speakers
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
it
being
1.05
p.m.
,
i
do
now
leave
the
chair
until
2
p.m.
this
day
.
{sent}
after
recess
{sent}
the
house
resumed
at
2.00
p.m.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
for
kamloops-shuswap
(
mr.
riis
)
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
that
was
a
surprise
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
now
i
feel
very
uneasy
.
{sent}
let
me
also
point
out
that
the
decision
to
join
motion
nos.
1
,
2
and
3
together
requires
one
to
comment
on
the
need
for
this
grouping
in
the
first
place
.
{sent}
the
record
should
indicate
clearly
that
the
new
democratic
party
opposes
this
bill
for
many
reasons
,
not
the
least
of
which
is
that
the
government
would
want
to
cut
itself
off
from
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
canadian
arsenals
is
a
100
per
cent
crown
corporation
established
in
1945
for
the
purpose
of
returning
the
armament
industry
in
canada
from
wartime
to
peacetime
operations
,
as
was
required
in
those
days
.
{sent}
it
has
evolved
into
a
corporation
that
produces
munitions
whose
primary
client
is
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
,
by
and
large
,
an
arm
of
the
government
since
some
90
per
cent
of
its
munitions
are
sold
to
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
last
year
,
canadian
arsenals
had
a
profit
in
excess
of
$
11
million
on
sales
in
excess
of
$
100
million
.
{sent}
that
is
quite
impressive
.
{sent}
that
crown
corporation
will
not
make
$
11
million
next
year
as
part
of
the
government
's
operation
as
a
result
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
we
have
some
difficulty
understanding
the
priorities
of
the
government
,
particularly
of
those
government
members
who
are
concerned
about
the
lack
of
government
revenue
.
{sent}
this
crown
corporation
is
very
profitable
and
well
run
,
at
least
in
terms
of
profitability
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
i
believe
it
was
ranked
third
in
canada
for
profitability
.
{sent}
yet
steps
are
being
taken
to
cut
this
particular
crown
corporation
adrift
.
{sent}
it
should
be
held
up
as
ample
proof
of
how
a
crown
corporation
works
extremely
well
in
terms
of
profitability
.
{sent}
the
major
concern
being
expressed
during
the
report
stage
of
this
bill
involves
the
pension
arrangements
for
800
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
this
concern
arises
because
of
the
government
's
negligence
in
thinking
the
process
through
carefully
.
{sent}
fortunately
,
in
committee
,
thoughtful
members
raised
the
point
that
not
enough
attention
had
been
given
to
the
pension
arrangements
of
the
hundreds
of
employees
involved
.
{sent}
indeed
,
the
government
agreed
that
this
had
been
overlooked
to
a
certain
degree
.
{sent}
consequently
,
the
first
motion
we
are
debating
in
this
group
was
initiated
by
the
government
in
recognition
of
this
oversight
.
{sent}
bill
c-87
is
extremely
important
because
of
its
precedent-setting
measures
.
{sent}
the
approach
used
in
this
bill
will
be
used
elsewhere
as
the
government
attempts
to
privatize
various
aspects
of
government
operations
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
are
particularly
concerned
about
clause
12
.
{sent}
we
are
not
simply
dealing
with
the
balance
sheets
or
the
facilities
of
canadian
arsenals
,
we
are
concerned
about
what
happens
to
the
hundreds
of
employees
in
that
operation
.
{sent}
many
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
have
been
contributing
to
pension
plans
for
many
years
.
{sent}
indeed
,
that
is
the
case
.
{sent}
that
is
the
reason
for
motion
no.
2
in
the
name
of
the
hon.
member
for
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
(
mr.
boudria
)
which
states
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
an
employee
of
the
corporation
,
as
of
the
day
prior
to
the
date
of
transfer
,
will
have
the
right
,
on
transferring
to
the
new
employer
,
either
to
:
{sent}
(
b
)
become
a
contributor
to
the
pension
plan
as
described
in
the
agreement
of
purchase
and
sale
between
the
government
and
the
new
employer
.
"
{sent}
i
understand
that
is
similar
to
the
arrangement
one
can
make
when
on
leave
from
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
it
is
possible
to
make
both
contributions
and
continue
the
plan
.
{sent}
such
a
procedure
makes
imminent
sense
in
this
situation
and
that
is
why
we
support
motion
no.
2
in
the
name
of
the
hon.
member
for
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
.
{sent}
i
,
and
i
know
other
members
were
disappointed
when
members
on
the
government
side
opposed
the
request
by
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
centre
(
mr.
cassidy
)
to
ask
the
parliamentary
secretary
a
number
of
questions
.
{sent}
this
is
essentially
the
last
opportunity
to
clarify
some
important
questions
,
yet
those
members
simply
want
the
report
stage
debate
to
take
place
.
{sent}
while
that
debate
may
be
appropriate
,
surely
this
is
such
a
critical
issue
in
terms
of
the
precedent
that
we
should
be
permitted
an
opportunity
to
direct
some
specific
questions
to
the
parliamentary
secretary
.
{sent}
i
greatly
regret
that
decision
by
government
members
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
,
let
me
simply
say
that
there
is
much
unease
with
respect
to
the
employees
involved
.
{sent}
there
are
concerns
which
have
been
registered
in
committee
and
have
now
been
raised
in
this
report
stage
debate
.
{sent}
there
is
a
whole
range
of
unanswered
questions
.
{sent}
before
this
round
of
motions
is
completed
,
perhaps
an
hon.
member
on
the
government
side
will
rise
and
respond
to
some
of
the
questions
posed
.
{sent}
if
not
,
then
we
will
have
to
say
that
the
process
being
followed
is
incomplete
and
inappropriate
on
such
a
critical
and
important
bill
.
{sent}
because
of
the
questions
which
have
been
posed
by
my
colleagues
,
i
anticipate
that
after
sitting
down
i
will
hear
from
some
hon.
members
opposite
in
terms
of
explanation
.
{sent}
i
believe
what
is
happening
is
that
the
government
is
moving
forward
with
its
ideological
strightjacket
without
giving
any
real
consideration
to
what
will
happen
to
the
number
of
people
who
are
presently
working
for
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
kamloops-shuswap
(
mr.
riis
)
indicated
that
this
is
not
just
an
isolated
concern
.
{sent}
yesterday
morning
we
read
that
cn
intends
to
sell
off
cn
route
to
three
investors
from
toronto
.
{sent}
i
asked
the
minister
of
transport
(
mr.
mazankowski
)
earlier
today
in
the
house
what
the
government
's
policy
is
for
the
people
working
for
a
crown
corporation
such
as
cn
route
.
{sent}
what
is
going
to
happen
to
those
people
,
their
jobs
,
their
pension
benefits
and
their
future
after
spending
so
many
years
working
for
the
government
of
canada
through
one
of
its
crown
corporations
?
{sent}
the
government
's
philosophy
is
to
get
rid
of
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
as
a
political
party
and
as
the
government
,
it
has
the
right
to
its
own
philosophy
.
{sent}
no
one
can
quarrel
with
that
.
{sent}
but
it
wo
;
uld
be
nice
on
occasions
if
it
would
admit
what
its
policies
are
and
even
nicer
if
it
would
sometimes
carry
them
out
.
{sent}
in
this
case
i
do
not
happen
to
believe
it
is
a
good
policy
.
{sent}
the
government
has
a
policy
to
privatize
despite
the
fact
that
it
involves
selling
a
crown
corporation
which
is
making
money
,
and
that
the
major
client
of
the
crown
corporation
is
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
what
we
are
doing
is
taking
a
crown
corporation
which
is
selling
its
goods
to
the
government
and
putting
it
into
the
hands
of
a
bunch
of
private
individuals
who
wish
to
make
a
profit
.
{sent}
but
from
whom
will
they
be
making
a
profit
?
{sent}
even
if
the
conservatives
are
right
in
their
desire
to
sell
off
some
crown
corporations
,
it
does
not
make
sense
to
sell
this
particular
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
there
are
crown
corporations
which
are
in
effect
competing
with
private
enterprise
for
a
public
market
.
{sent}
they
are
competing
for
the
purchase
orders
of
other
consumer
groups
and
industries
.
{sent}
but
this
is
not
the
case
with
canadian
arsenal
.
{sent}
we
also
know
from
the
nature
of
the
arms
business
that
it
is
basically
governments
throughout
the
world
who
buy
the
product
.
{sent}
but
let
us
look
at
the
employees
of
that
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
the
amendment
before
us
this
afternoon
deals
in
the
main
with
what
is
going
to
happen
to
the
people
who
are
working
for
a
canadian
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
we
know
that
as
a
result
of
the
sale
these
people
will
face
the
potential
danger
of
losing
their
pension
benefits
,
despite
the
amendment
brought
forward
by
the
government
earlier
today
.
{sent}
that
is
one
particular
concern
.
{sent}
the
government
really
wants
to
sell
off
crown
corporation
after
crown
corporation
and
cn
route
is
now
on
the
selling
block
.
{sent}
we
know
the
workers
there
are
going
to
be
affected
.
{sent}
there
was
an
article
in
this
morning
's
globe
and
mail
that
a
number
of
cn
's
route
workers
will
lose
their
jobs
.
{sent}
considering
this
result
,
why
does
the
government
not
have
a
policy
on
how
it
will
deal
with
the
employees
of
these
crown
corporations
when
they
are
sold
?
{sent}
that
is
the
case
here
where
we
are
going
from
federal
law
to
the
provincial
law
of
the
province
of
quebec
.
{sent}
the
government
has
an
obligation
to
be
concerned
about
what
happens
to
the
employees
who
are
at
the
present
time
employees
of
the
people
of
canada
.
{sent}
if
this
industry
was
the
only
industry
the
government
was
going
to
privatize
,
it
would
be
of
major
concern
,
because
we
are
concerned
about
the
workers
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
yet
the
government
has
not
told
us
what
its
policy
is
for
the
workers
.
{sent}
it
has
not
even
said
what
the
policies
are
for
the
communities
in
which
these
industries
are
located
.
{sent}
it
has
not
told
us
what
its
responsibility
is
as
it
gets
out
of
certain
endeavours
.
{sent}
that
is
my
major
concern
.
{sent}
no
one
has
done
that
.
{sent}
members
of
the
government
get
up
and
talk
about
a
namby-pamby
amendment
which
they
have
brought
in
at
the
dying
stages
of
discussion
on
the
legislation
.
{sent}
the
amendment
deals
with
one
set
of
workers
in
a
particular
way
,
but
it
does
not
explain
where
the
government
wants
to
go
in
the
long
run
.
{sent}
we
have
already
heard
from
representatives
of
the
workers
to
the
effect
that
the
amendment
which
is
before
us
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
we
know
that
to
be
the
case
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
even
more
worrisome
that
the
government
has
not
said
where
it
will
go
in
the
future
.
{sent}
i
realize
that
my
time
is
about
to
expire
.
{sent}
at
that
time
hon.
members
may
recall
that
we
were
questioning
why
the
government
was
proceeding
without
giving
canadians
the
benefit
of
information
.
{sent}
in
effect
,
the
government
was
saying
:
"
yes
,
it
is
a
good
price
for
which
we
sold
this
particular
company
,
but
we
will
not
tell
canadians
what
that
price
is
.
{sent}
just
trust
us
"
.
{sent}
that
was
the
philosophy
which
characterized
the
approach
of
the
conservative
government
during
the
debate
at
second
reading
.
{sent}
however
,
i
regret
that
at
report
stage
i
need
to
stand
in
my
place
again
and
make
a
similar
pitch
on
a
different
issue
.
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
by
adding
immediately
after
line
34
at
page
5
the
following
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
an
employee
of
the
corporation
,
as
of
the
day
prior
to
the
date
of
transfer
,
will
have
the
right
,
on
transferring
to
the
new
employer
,
either
to
:
{sent}
(
b
)
become
a
contributor
to
the
pension
plan
as
described
in
the
agreement
of
purchase
and
sale
between
the
government
and
the
new
employer
.
"
{sent}
what
the
hon.
member
is
attempting
to
do
by
putting
forward
this
motion
is
have
the
government
come
clean
with
the
employees
of
this
company
.
{sent}
this
would
give
them
some
sense
of
assurance
,
some
sense
of
continuity
and
a
sense
of
respect
and
dignity
in
terms
of
their
future
with
this
particular
company
.
{sent}
this
is
to
what
the
amendment
refers
.
{sent}
the
amendment
speaks
in
defence
of
not
only
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
,
the
particular
union
involved
,
but
the
800
workers
,
some
of
whom
have
spent
a
great
number
of
years
in
the
employ
of
this
company
.
{sent}
that
individual
,
that
breadwinner
,
wants
to
know
,
not
tomorrow
or
the
month
after
but
today
how
his
pension
contributions
will
be
affected
.
{sent}
he
wants
to
know
what
kind
of
choices
and
opportunities
he
will
have
in
terms
of
these
pension
contributions
.
{sent}
this
is
to
what
the
amendment
speaks
.
{sent}
the
government
has
said
in
a
holus-bolus
way
:
"
we
will
move
a
motion
which
will
allow
us
to
make
an
order
in
council
sometime
in
the
future
which
will
dictate
what
kind
of
arrangement
vis-à-vis
pension
contributions
these
800
employees
will
have
"
.
{sent}
that
is
not
the
right
way
to
deal
with
individuals
who
have
been
contributing
to
the
system
for
a
number
of
years
.
{sent}
that
is
not
the
way
by
which
families
can
build
their
futures
.
{sent}
that
is
not
the
way
the
government
should
be
conducting
its
business
on
behalf
of
canadians
.
{sent}
it
does
not
speak
very
highly
of
the
motives
of
the
government
.
{sent}
if
it
wants
to
make
a
decision
to
sell
this
company
which
has
been
profitable
,
then
that
is
the
choice
of
the
government
.
{sent}
of
course
,
that
is
what
it
is
here
for
.
{sent}
we
on
this
side
of
the
house
have
pointed
out
options
with
respect
to
why
it
should
not
choose
to
exercise
that
alternative
.
{sent}
however
,
if
it
is
to
move
in
this
direction
,
after
having
made
a
clear
decision
to
take
the
privatization
route
,
then
for
goodness'
sake
let
us
have
an
infrastructure
in
keeping
with
that
decision
.
{sent}
why
not
think
of
the
workers
?
{sent}
why
should
they
be
left
out
of
the
equation
?
{sent}
why
should
their
pension
contributions
be
left
simply
to
hang
for
some
future
discretionary
measure
within
the
minister
responsible
?
{sent}
that
is
not
the
way
business
should
be
conducted
when
it
involves
the
livelihood
of
people
.
{sent}
it
is
unfair
to
say
:
"
we
will
give
them
the
benefit
of
one
year
to
make
up
their
minds
whether
or
not
they
want
to
pursue
the
pension
plan
programs
which
we
will
be
designing
and
offering
them
"
.
{sent}
it
should
also
be
noted
that
this
window
of
12
months
will
begin
once
the
legislation
is
passed
.
{sent}
by
the
time
the
legislation
passes
,
and
by
the
time
the
government
introduces
its
order
in
council
,
it
may
very
well
be
that
6
,
8
,
10
or
11
months
will
have
passed
.
{sent}
therefore
,
that
window
by
which
an
individual
employee
can
make
an
intelligent
decision
for
his
family
will
be
shortened
.
{sent}
the
one
year
,
which
might
sound
very
attractive
now
,
will
,
in
fact
,
be
watered
down
.
{sent}
individuals
in
treasury
board
have
been
quoted
in
various
journals
and
newspapers
as
having
said
that
the
government
has
proceeded
in
a
very
unorganized
and
haphazard
way
,
as
far
as
pension
contributions
are
concerned
.
{sent}
we
are
not
trying
to
be
obstructionist
.
{sent}
we
are
not
putting
forward
opposite
views
on
how
the
government
should
be
proceeding
simply
because
we
are
in
opposition
.
{sent}
we
are
doing
so
because
there
needs
to
be
someone
to
speak
for
the
workers
in
terms
of
this
particular
issue
in
order
that
their
concerns
be
brought
in
and
articulated
.
{sent}
they
have
been
trying
to
make
their
concerns
known
to
the
government
.
{sent}
this
is
why
we
are
asking
members
of
the
house
to
consider
seriously
motion
no.
2
put
forward
by
my
colleague
.
{sent}
it
is
a
fair
and
responsible
amendment
.
{sent}
it
is
one
which
speaks
to
the
investment
workers
have
made
over
the
years
and
the
one
they
wish
to
continue
to
make
in
future
years
.
{sent}
what
is
so
wrong
with
that
?
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
there
are
three
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
it
is
10
minutes
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
in
the
course
of
my
10-minute
intervention
on
this
fundamental
question
i
wish
to
take
the
opportunity
to
address
some
of
the
concerns
raised
by
these
motions
.
{sent}
i
had
the
opportunity
of
meeting
with
many
of
the
workers
of
canadian
arsenals
who
,
as
the
house
will
know
,
were
here
on
the
hill
on
wednesday
of
this
week
.
{sent}
they
expressed
concerns
with
respect
to
the
possibility
that
they
might
lose
certain
employee
pension
benefits
.
{sent}
as
we
know
,
this
is
a
fundamental
issue
of
concern
to
these
employees
who
have
served
canadian
arsenals
faithfully
for
many
years
.
{sent}
the
possible
effect
of
the
provisions
of
this
bill
would
be
to
seriously
jeopardize
the
pension
position
of
the
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
heard
the
chant
on
the
steps
of
parliament
hill
:
"
on
veut
la
compensation
,
on
veut
la
compensation
!
"
{sent}
the
compensation
could
amount
to
something
in
the
order
of
$
17,000
per
year
to
the
individuals
who
have
been
affected
by
this
legislation
.
{sent}
in
examining
the
provisions
of
this
bill
,
i
note
that
the
government
,
in
the
dying
gasp
of
this
debate
,
has
put
forward
a
motion
which
moves
some
distance
toward
meeting
the
concerns
of
the
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
however
,
i
would
like
to
support
motion
no.
2
,
the
motion
that
would
permit
employees
of
the
corporation
,
as
of
the
day
prior
to
the
date
of
the
transfer
of
the
company
,
to
make
an
election
.
{sent}
the
fundamental
issue
here
is
that
this
would
give
the
employees
in
question
a
choice
.
{sent}
obviously
that
would
permit
them
to
continue
to
protect
the
pension
rights
which
have
accrued
to
them
through
many
years
of
faithful
,
loyal
,
dedicated
and
hardworking
service
to
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
we
must
ask
why
it
is
that
the
government
seems
to
be
obsessed
with
the
notion
that
the
private
sector
can
do
things
better
than
the
public
sector
.
{sent}
privatization
is
the
current
buzz-word
of
the
conservative
government
.
{sent}
why
is
it
that
the
government
believes
a
company
which
is
motivated
by
the
pursuit
of
profit
and
the
pursuit
of
maximizing
its
return
on
shares
is
better
able
to
manage
this
company
than
the
public
sector
?
{sent}
i
believe
that
the
purpose
of
public
policy
is
to
serve
the
interests
of
canadians
,
certainly
not
to
serve
the
interests
of
a
small
group
of
elite
corporate
shareholders
.
{sent}
they
should
be
open
,
accountable
and
charged
with
a
clear
and
definable
mandate
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
canadian
arsenals
has
been
a
very
profitable
company
.
{sent}
in
1985
,
it
had
a
net
income
of
$
11.3
million
on
sales
of
$
103.8
million
.
{sent}
its
return
on
equity
was
an
excellent
21.4
per
cent
in
1984-85
.
{sent}
the
profits
of
this
company
were
being
used
to
help
reduce
the
deficit
of
the
government
.
{sent}
the
government
has
been
cutting
back
on
family
allowances
and
transfer
payments
for
health
care
and
post-secondary
education
.
{sent}
one
would
have
thought
that
the
government
would
have
welcomed
a
contribution
of
$
11
million
to
the
public
purse
to
help
reduce
the
deficit
.
{sent}
it
is
reasonable
to
assume
that
the
approach
which
is
being
taken
by
the
government
in
bill
c-87
will
very
likely
serve
as
a
model
for
other
government
privatization
efforts
.
{sent}
for
that
reason
,
as
well
as
the
reasons
i
have
discussed
previously
and
which
my
colleagues
have
so
eloquently
placed
on
the
record
,
we
want
to
make
sure
that
we
give
bill
c-87
the
best
possible
effort
so
that
it
may
be
a
good
model
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
have
urged
the
government
to
recognize
that
while
it
has
moved
forward
with
an
amendment
,
it
does
not
go
far
enough
to
protect
the
pension
contributions
of
the
employees
involved
.
{sent}
i
would
note
as
well
that
the
jeopardization
of
the
retirement
pensions
of
canadian
arsenals
employees
is
but
one
of
a
number
of
concerns
we
have
raised
in
the
course
of
this
debate
.
{sent}
the
public
service
alliance
made
representations
with
respect
to
this
bill
,
and
i
would
note
here
the
role
played
by
vice
president
jean
bergeron
.
{sent}
the
public
service
alliance
has
spoken
out
very
clearly
with
respect
to
the
concern
about
long-standing
contractual
rights
of
employees
and
the
concern
that
these
contractual
rights
be
protected
during
the
transition
from
public
to
private
enterprise
.
{sent}
the
sale
in
question
does
require
a
jurisdictional
change
in
the
area
of
labour
relations
from
the
federal
jurisdiction
to
the
provincial
jurisdiction
of
quebec
.
{sent}
at
this
time
the
employees
are
covered
under
the
provisions
of
the
canada
labour
code
.
{sent}
while
snc
,
the
company
which
is
buying
canadian
arsenals
,
has
made
commitments
to
honour
all
of
the
contractual
obligations
between
canadian
arsenals
and
its
employees
,
it
would
be
far
preferable
if
those
commitments
were
enshrined
in
the
legislation
.
{sent}
as
well
,
there
is
a
problem
in
this
legislation
with
respect
to
the
grievance
and
arbitration
of
rights
of
the
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
the
sale
is
adding
to
the
degree
of
confusion
and
uncertainty
that
is
involved
.
{sent}
that
is
a
question
which
no
member
on
that
side
of
the
house
has
yet
addressed
,
and
it
is
a
question
which
we
in
this
party
believe
must
be
addressed
.
{sent}
as
i
have
indicated
,
it
cannot
be
argued
that
there
has
been
a
failure
in
the
corporate
responsibility
of
this
firm
to
its
shareholders
who
are
ultimately
the
people
of
canada
or
to
its
employees
.
{sent}
after
all
,
it
has
a
good
record
.
{sent}
i
know
that
other
speakers
will
be
talking
about
the
record
of
canadian
arsenals
in
this
regard
.
{sent}
i
want
to
note
another
concern
.
{sent}
by
far
the
largest
customer
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
is
in
fact
the
department
of
national
defence
.
{sent}
it
has
been
most
beneficial
to
have
that
close
working
relationship
between
canadian
arsenals
and
the
department
of
national
defence
.
{sent}
as
it
now
stands
,
the
privatization
process
could
very
well
jeopardize
that
relationship
.
{sent}
we
have
to
ask
ourselves
more
fundamental
questions
in
terms
of
the
rights
of
the
employees
and
of
the
pension
plan
.
{sent}
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
the
hon.
member
's
time
has
expired
;
i
would
love
to
listen
to
him
all
day
.
{sent}
mrs.
lucie
pépin
(
outremont
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
in
support
of
motion
no.
2
which
reads
as
follows
:
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
by
adding
immediately
after
line
34
at
page
5
the
following
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
an
employee
of
the
corporation
,
as
of
the
day
prior
to
the
date
of
transfer
,
will
have
the
right
,
on
transferring
to
the
new
employer
,
either
to
:
{sent}
(
b
)
become
a
contributor
to
the
pension
plan
as
described
in
the
agreement
of
the
purchase
and
sale
between
the
government
and
the
new
employer
.
"
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
should
like
to
draw
your
attention
to
the
fact
that
50
per
cent
of
the
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
are
women
.
{sent}
therefore
,
taxes
would
be
imposed
on
50
per
cent
of
the
wives
of
men
who
work
for
the
corporation
and
they
would
not
be
eligible
for
pension
benefits
.
{sent}
then
as
employees
women
would
be
doubly
taxed
because
they
would
also
lose
their
retirement
pension
.
{sent}
for
quite
some
time
now
we
have
been
debating
bill
c-62
on
employment
equity
.
{sent}
something
else
is
also
very
interesting
.
{sent}
i
am
now
a
member
of
the
committee
on
daycare
.
{sent}
we
have
had
the
katie
cooke
report
on
daycare
which
was
tabled
recently
in
this
house
.
{sent}
the
government
is
being
asked
to
encourage
companies
to
provide
daycare
space
or
to
open
daycares
centres
.
{sent}
we
have
also
been
told
that
this
will
be
a
priority
for
the
government
.
{sent}
did
the
government
discuss
the
fact
that
it
would
have
been
possible
to
create
employment
equity
as
well
as
provide
spaces
in
daycare
centres
?
{sent}
if
not
,
this
shows
that
we
are
dealing
with
mere
amateurs
approach
,
because
the
contract
was
prepared
hastily
and
the
government
has
been
remiss
in
its
duty
.
{sent}
that
is
very
important
.
{sent}
these
are
the
amendments
now
under
discussion
.
{sent}
i
ask
the
government
to
act
and
not
simply
to
put
up
a
smoke
screen
.
{sent}
this
is
one
of
the
first
times
that
we
see
that
this
bill
deals
with
the
privatization
of
a
company
.
{sent}
was
employment
equity
discussed
as
one
of
the
conditions
of
purchase
?
{sent}
has
there
been
some
provision
to
protect
the
spouses
of
the
workers
?
{sent}
also
,
as
concerns
women
,
will
they
be
hit
by
double
taxation
on
their
pensions
?
{sent}
i
would
like
the
government
to
show
us
that
it
is
being
serious
for
once
instead
of
relying
on
rhetoric
.
{sent}
if
indeed
it
is
serious
,
i
must
support
motion
no.
2
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
do
not
simply
want
to
have
a
discussion
with
my
conservative
colleague
who
says
that
the
liberal
government
did
not
pass
any
legislation
to
achieve
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
liberal
government
passed
some
excellent
laws
on
the
status
of
women
.
{sent}
canada
has
been
one
of
the
most
progressive
countries
in
this
regard
.
{sent}
you
always
tell
us
that
you
are
doing
a
lot
for
women
,
for
instance
that
when
appointing
new
board
of
direction
.
{sent}
well
!
{sent}
you
appointed
16
men
out
of
17
members
.
{sent}
on
another
board
made
up
of
ten
members
,
you
appointed
ten
men
.
{sent}
you
should
start
by
practicing
what
you
preach
.
{sent}
this
is
the
best
proof
we
could
have
!
{sent}
you
should
put
this
principle
in
practice
in
the
case
of
a
privatization
and
show
that
you
are
able
to
protect
the
rights
of
women
.
{sent}
if
the
conservative
government
can
do
so
,
i
shall
publicly
recognize
it
,
but
for
the
moment
,
i
think
that
you
are
making
a
mistake
.
{sent}
it
is
a
people
or
personnel
problem
rather
than
a
privatization
problem
.
{sent}
the
employees
want
to
maintain
their
present
status
under
the
public
service
superannuation
act
.
{sent}
they
understand
quite
well
that
the
government
does
not
want
that
link
between
a
private
company
and
the
public
service
superannuation
act
.
{sent}
their
first
request
was
for
the
government
to
pay
both
shares
.
{sent}
however
,
there
was
a
counter
offer
by
the
government
,
that
it
would
make
an
offer
through
order
in
council
sometime
in
the
future
.
{sent}
it
was
a
fairly
hollow
gesture
,
one
which
we
could
not
expect
loyal
employees
who
worked
for
a
long
time
for
this
important
corporation
to
accept
.
{sent}
we
have
not
really
dealt
with
the
link
between
the
department
of
national
defence
and
canadian
arsenals
limited
or
how
bill
c-87
will
affect
that
long
standing
relationship
.
{sent}
the
government
was
asking
the
employees
to
give
it
a
blank
cheque
.
{sent}
it
said
that
sometime
in
the
future
it
would
do
something
for
them
.
{sent}
it
did
not
know
what
that
would
be
;
it
did
not
even
hint
at
it
.
{sent}
in
any
event
,
the
government
told
them
that
it
would
do
something
for
them
in
the
future
and
that
they
had
a
year
in
which
to
make
up
their
minds
on
whether
they
would
accept
the
offer
.
{sent}
it
was
not
really
a
fair
way
to
treat
loyal
employees
who
had
been
working
for
canadian
arsenals
for
a
long
time
.
{sent}
on
the
other
hand
,
the
people
affected
said
that
they
would
pay
both
shares
if
the
government
would
not
do
it
.
{sent}
they
made
that
offer
to
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
.
{sent}
he
was
asked
to
respond
to
that
most
magnanimous
offer
by
the
employees
,
but
he
has
not
responded
.
{sent}
so
we
are
here
today
debating
an
amendment
of
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
glengarry-prescott-russell
(
mr.
boudria
)
,
to
do
the
very
things
the
employees
want
to
do
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
incumbent
upon
the
government
to
accept
the
offer
.
{sent}
it
is
a
fair
and
reasonable
one
and
it
is
magnanimous
on
the
part
of
the
employees
to
make
it
.
{sent}
there
is
a
wider
issue
here
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
if
we
are
going
to
have
a
sound
economy
we
have
to
have
better
employer-employee
relations
.
{sent}
there
has
to
be
a
new
relationship
with
labour
.
{sent}
if
the
government
is
serious
about
that
it
should
lead
the
way
by
showing
that
kind
of
attitude
toward
its
employees
.
{sent}
the
government
should
set
the
tone
in
the
country
by
example
.
{sent}
we
have
seen
strikes
across
the
country
.
{sent}
we
are
presently
,
i
hope
,
in
the
final
stages
of
one
in
my
own
province
on
the
very
same
issue
.
{sent}
the
public
servants
in
newfoundland
have
virtually
brought
the
province
to
a
standstill
and
have
negotiated
directly
in
public
with
the
premier
.
{sent}
they
have
forced
concessions
from
the
newfoundland
government
.
{sent}
the
matter
is
still
not
resolved
,
but
it
is
a
case
in
point
.
{sent}
governments
have
to
set
the
tone
for
the
new
economic
reality
.
{sent}
there
has
to
be
a
new
relationship
with
labour
.
{sent}
there
has
to
be
peace
with
labour
and
you
cannot
do
it
by
confrontation
or
by
walking
all
over
people
.
{sent}
you
have
to
sit
down
and
be
reasonable
with
people
,
particularly
those
who
have
served
the
government
and
the
people
of
canada
faithfully
for
a
long
,
long
time
.
{sent}
i
say
to
the
government
and
to
this
parliament
that
it
is
incumbent
upon
us
to
support
the
amendment
from
my
colleague
from
glengarry-prescott-russell
.
{sent}
he
has
worked
long
and
hard
for
many
of
the
people
,
many
of
whom
live
in
this
area
.
{sent}
most
of
the
people
who
are
affected
,
as
i
understand
it
,
are
employees
in
montreal
and
st.
augustin
near
quebec
city
.
{sent}
the
employees
in
question
deserve
fair
treatment
.
{sent}
they
are
making
a
reasonable
proposal
and
i
think
it
is
incumbent
upon
the
government
to
accept
it
.
{sent}
there
is
that
wider
issue
,
namely
,
the
new
relationship
with
the
working
people
in
the
country
.
{sent}
we
are
facing
rapid
change
.
{sent}
people
feel
threatened
and
insecure
.
{sent}
neither
politicians
nor
businessmen
--
in
fact
,
no
one
is
exempt
from
that
insecurity
brought
about
by
the
rapid
changes
in
society
.
{sent}
we
have
a
chance
to
do
something
for
these
people
.
{sent}
we
should
act
today
by
supporting
this
amendment
and
showing
the
workers
that
we
are
keeping
faith
with
them
.
{sent}
mr.
dan
heap
(
spadina
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
opposed
to
bill
c-87
.
{sent}
i
oppose
this
measure
as
does
my
party
because
it
will
be
harmful
for
the
people
of
canada
as
well
as
for
the
men
and
women
who
work
for
this
corporation
.
{sent}
it
is
a
company
that
stands
and
ranks
well
with
other
canadian
companies
.
{sent}
it
is
a
company
that
provides
a
vital
service
.
{sent}
the
sale
ought
to
be
delayed
until
at
least
the
proper
interests
of
the
employees
can
be
preserved
.
{sent}
i
would
welcome
any
possible
amendments
to
serve
the
interests
of
the
employees
of
the
company
and
the
people
before
this
bill
is
passed
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
question
is
on
motion
no.
1
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
in
my
opinion
the
yeas
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
pursuant
to
standing
order
114(11)
,
the
recorded
division
on
the
proposed
motion
stands
deferred
.
{sent}
since
motion
no.
3
is
consequential
to
motion
no.
1
,
a
vote
on
motion
no.
1
will
apply
as
per
the
speaker
's
ruling
.
{sent}
a
vote
on
motion
no.
1
will
dispose
of
motion
no.
2
.
{sent}
motions
nos.
4
and
5
are
identical
.
{sent}
the
chair
will
select
one
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
i
believe
you
also
have
to
take
a
vote
on
motion
no.
2
which
has
not
been
covered
since
it
is
not
established
whether
or
not
the
full
house
on
monday
will
support
motion
no.
1
.
{sent}
as
i
understand
it
,
since
this
has
not
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
we
will
do
that
when
there
is
a
deferred
division
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
centre
(
mr.
cassidy
)
should
realize
that
once
we
have
gone
through
all
the
debates
on
monday
,
or
whenever
we
are
finished
with
the
debate
,
we
will
do
that
.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
motion
no.
2
will
be
voted
on
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
yes.
{sent}
mr.
cassidy
:
may
i
rise
to
move
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
have
selected
motion
no.
4
.
{sent}
mr.
mike
cassidy
(
ottawa
centre
)
moved
:
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
in
clause
12
by
striking
out
lines
35
to
37
at
page
5
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
this
act
shall
come
into
force
after
december
31
,
1987
,
on
a
date
to
be
fixed
by
proclamation
.
"
{sent}
he
said
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
bill
as
it
stands
right
now
calls
for
it
to
come
into
force
on
a
day
to
be
fixed
by
proclamation
.
{sent}
the
government
is
saying
that
there
are
no
problems
left
with
this
particular
act
of
privatization
that
deserve
to
be
resolved
.
{sent}
the
minister
does
not
look
like
a
real
tory
because
his
suit
is
not
blue
.
{sent}
the
problems
which
exist
here
are
not
related
to
snc
.
{sent}
snc
,
to
some
extent
,
is
an
unwilling
and
hapless
victim
of
the
government
's
mismanagement
of
this
act
of
privatization
.
{sent}
the
minister
and
the
government
must
act
differently
if
they
intend
to
continue
with
the
privatization
and
get
co-operation
.
{sent}
after
this
experience
,
when
employees
are
affected
,
rather
than
looking
for
ways
to
co-operate
with
the
government
's
intention
,
which
the
government
does
have
the
parliamentary
majority
to
put
into
law
,
people
will
drag
their
heels
.
{sent}
in
this
particular
case
that
was
not
at
issue
because
there
was
no
effective
consultation
for
the
longest
time
with
the
workforce
and
the
unions
affected
.
{sent}
if
anyone
wants
to
complain
about
delay
,
as
they
have
to
me
,
they
should
look
at
the
government
's
record
on
this
issue
.
{sent}
the
announcement
of
the
intention
to
privatize
canadian
arsenals
was
made
in
the
budget
on
may
23
.
{sent}
bids
were
submitted
and
received
on
august
9
.
{sent}
there
followed
a
bidding
war
in
which
the
government
tried
to
get
the
preferred
bidders
to
up
the
ante
,
a
process
from
which
snc
eventually
emerged
with
the
government
's
approval
.
{sent}
it
was
not
until
early
december
that
the
government
announced
that
it
intended
to
act
and
introduced
the
privatization
bill
in
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
i
received
anxious
submissions
from
snc
last
november
and
december
asking
what
the
ndp
could
do
in
order
to
expedite
the
bill
,
as
they
really
wanted
to
have
it
passed
.
{sent}
i
had
to
tell
them
that
there
was
nothing
i
could
do
because
the
carriage
of
the
bill
was
in
the
hands
of
the
government
.
{sent}
i
suggested
that
the
people
from
snc
should
sit
down
immediately
with
the
representatives
of
the
workers
involved
to
start
to
iron
out
the
problems
.
{sent}
i
warned
them
that
if
they
could
resolve
the
concerns
of
the
workforce
,
it
would
certainly
help
our
party
to
be
a
good
deal
more
co-operative
with
regard
to
getting
the
bill
passed
.
{sent}
that
,
in
fact
,
did
not
occur
.
{sent}
snc
finally
got
around
to
talking
with
the
union
,
but
the
government
tried
its
best
to
avoid
having
any
meaningful
discussions
.
{sent}
we
have
,
therefore
,
the
spectacle
of
legislated
amendments
on
an
absolutely
essential
part
of
the
process
.
{sent}
if
there
has
been
delay
,
the
government
is
responsible
for
it
.
{sent}
the
reason
for
the
delay
is
that
the
government
did
not
know
whether
it
intended
to
privatize
,
or
how
it
intended
to
do
it
.
{sent}
fundamental
questions
have
yet
to
be
addressed
in
the
case
of
teleglobe
.
{sent}
the
rates
which
teleglobe
canada
can
charge
are
part
of
a
regulated
environment
.
{sent}
if
teleglobe
goes
into
the
private
sector
,
its
income
and
,
therefore
,
its
profitability
,
will
depend
on
how
the
government
intends
to
administer
this
regulated
environment
.
{sent}
if
international
tariffs
for
communications
are
deregulated
,
or
sharply
reduced
,
teleglobe
will
no
longer
be
very
attractive
.
{sent}
it
is
very
difficult
to
sell
it
,
given
that
uncertainty
.
{sent}
with
regard
to
canadian
arsenals
,
we
wondered
why
we
would
sell
it
when
it
was
anticipated
that
it
was
going
to
continue
to
be
more
and
more
profitable
.
{sent}
it
was
one
of
the
fastest
growing
companies
in
terms
of
profit
growth
in
the
last
five
years
in
the
entire
financial
post
index
.
{sent}
we
wondered
why
we
would
sell
a
winner
,
and
the
government
has
never
answered
that
question
.
{sent}
the
other
question
we
had
was
with
regard
to
dealing
with
the
employees
.
{sent}
this
has
not
been
done
either
.
{sent}
that
is
why
i
have
moved
this
amendment
which
calls
for
the
act
to
come
into
force
after
december
31
,
1987
,
on
a
date
to
be
fixd
by
proclamation
.
{sent}
these
problems
have
also
been
raised
by
their
unions
repeatedly
and
consistently
since
the
bill
was
tabled
in
december
.
{sent}
if
motion
no.
1
passes
on
monday
there
will
be
a
resolution
of
the
pension
issue
,
albeit
not
a
very
good
resolution
.
{sent}
the
fact
that
there
has
not
been
a
satisfctory
resolution
in
that
area
raises
questions
in
my
mind
.
{sent}
another
issue
is
that
ammunition
produced
by
canadian
arsenals
has
found
its
way
to
such
places
as
contra
camps
on
the
borders
of
nicaragua
.
{sent}
yet
,
there
has
been
no
insistence
with
regard
to
controlling
where
snc
and
its
new
subsidiary
will
be
able
to
sell
ammunition
and
other
military
products
once
it
is
no
longer
publicly
owned
.
{sent}
these
issues
ought
to
be
resolved
before
a
sale
,
rather
than
after
.
{sent}
i
very
much
regret
that
the
government
did
not
see
fit
to
resolve
those
problems
before
passing
the
bill
.
{sent}
for
those
reasons
i
have
moved
that
this
matter
be
deferred
and
that
the
bill
not
be
proclaimed
until
after
the
end
of
december
,
1987
,
which
will
allow
ample
time
for
the
resolution
of
these
problems
.
{sent}
however
,
for
now
i
think
it
is
necessary
to
pass
this
motion
.
{sent}
we
will
feel
compelled
to
continue
to
make
proposals
for
delay
until
these
issues
are
better
handled
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
i
will
recognize
the
hon.
member
for
glengarry
--
presscott
--
russell
(
mr.
boudria
)
.
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
are
almost
ready
for
the
question
,
but
we
do
have
a
few
other
points
which
we
must
bring
to
your
attention
.
{sent}
mrs.
mailly
:
on
a
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
m.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
for
gatineau
.
{sent}
mrs.
mailly
:
i
am
questioning
the
relevancy
of
naming
all
those
members
who
are
not
now
in
this
house
,
and
pretending
to
speak
on
their
behalf
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
i
never
said
they
were
not
present
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
it
is
friday
afternoon
.
{sent}
i
was
paying
attention
to
the
hon.
member
's
speech
and
he
never
mentioned
who
was
or
was
not
in
the
house
.
{sent}
he
has
been
here
for
close
to
two
years
now
and
i
know
he
realizes
that
hon.
members
do
not
mention
who
is
or
who
is
not
in
the
chamber
.
{sent}
we
will
just
leave
it
at
that
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
mr.
speaker
,
all
members
are
here
.
{sent}
the
ones
who
have
not
spoken
yet
are
too
busy
doing
constituency
work
.
{sent}
it
is
not
because
they
are
not
here
.
{sent}
i
really
resent
the
hon.
member
saying
that
her
colleagues
are
not
here
.
{sent}
it
is
just
not
fair
to
them
and
the
record
should
show
that
she
is
being
unfair
towards
her
colleagues
by
doing
what
she
just
did
.
{sent}
not
that
i
would
mention
it
myself
,
but
now
that
she
has
brought
it
up
i
cannot
really
disagree
with
her
.
{sent}
i
will
leave
it
at
that
.
{sent}
mrs.
mailly
:
on
a
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
for
gatineau
.
{sent}
mrs.
mailly
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
believe
the
hon.
member
has
just
said
that
this
bill
was
most
important
.
{sent}
i
would
therefore
particularly
like
to
hear
his
comments
on
that
,
rather
than
having
him
play
his
childish
little
games
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
i
am
not
playing
games
,
you
are
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
know
the
hon.
member
will
now
get
back
to
the
motion
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
mr.
speaker
,
that
is
exactly
what
i
was
going
to
do
before
i
was
so
rudely
interrupted
.
{sent}
i
am
glad
to
hear
a
contribution
from
the
hon.
member
in
this
debate
,
albeit
a
brief
contribution
.
{sent}
mrs.
mailly
:
i
spoke
on
it
and
you
know
it
.
{sent}
we
all
spoke
on
it
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
refer
to
a
profile
of
the
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
i
know
the
hon.
member
is
listening
very
attentively
,
as
she
usually
does
.
{sent}
the
average
age
of
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
is
33.87
years
.
{sent}
the
reason
i
bring
this
to
your
attention
at
this
time
is
that
a
number
of
these
employees
are
quite
young
and
at
the
same
time
they
have
a
fair
level
of
seniority
in
the
company
.
{sent}
the
delay
being
proposed
here
will
surely
give
time
to
the
government
and
everyone
else
to
reflect
upon
what
they
want
to
do
and
hopefully
propose
something
better
for
the
employees
.
{sent}
let
me
give
you
a
few
examples
of
just
what
damage
we
are
talking
about
regarding
loss
of
benefits
for
the
employees
.
{sent}
i
know
that
the
vice-president
of
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
has
raised
this
issue
with
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
.
{sent}
the
minister
made
a
solemn
promise
.
{sent}
you
will
recognize
and
recall
,
as
do
i
,
that
a
tory
promise
is
a
pretty
important
thing
.
{sent}
that
tory
minister
promised
he
would
get
back
to
the
vice-president
of
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
by
yesterday
at
two
o'clock
.
{sent}
i
know
this
is
going
to
be
hard
to
believe
but
that
tory
cabinet
minister
did
not
respond
.
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
it
is
in
the
mail
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
no
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
he
broke
his
promise
,
as
unbelievable
as
that
may
sound
.
{sent}
the
tories
have
not
broken
a
promise
today
,
of
course
,
but
they
have
practically
every
other
day
since
they
came
into
office
.
{sent}
that
is
what
just
happened
a
few
moments
ago
,
just
behind
the
chamber
here
.
{sent}
that
is
a
very
sad
case
.
{sent}
i
know
the
parliamentary
secretary
,
who
is
heckling
,
will
take
the
opportunity
to
make
a
profound
speech
--
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
not
heckling
,
just
clarifying
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
--
a
little
later
this
afternoon
.
{sent}
an
employee
aged
29
with
12
years
of
service
with
canadian
arsenals
will
be
losing
$
17,213.07
a
year
by
the
time
he
or
she
is
pensioned
.
{sent}
that
is
the
difference
between
the
two
pension
plans
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
said
earlier
today
that
the
snc
pension
is
comparable
to
other
similar
industries
.
{sent}
that
is
a
very
interesting
statement
because
how
many
other
similar
industries
are
there
in
canada
?
{sent}
one
.
{sent}
just
one
.
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
five
.
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
there
is
only
one
similar
industry
in
canada
and
it
is
known
as
ivi
.
{sent}
do
you
know
who
owns
ivi
?
{sent}
snc
,
the
same
people
buying
this
company
.
{sent}
so
what
kind
of
sense
does
it
make
to
make
those
kinds
of
comparisons
?
{sent}
i
submit
that
it
is
probably
true
that
the
pension
plans
are
comparable
.
{sent}
it
is
true
that
snc
is
a
good
employer
.
{sent}
that
is
not
the
point
.
{sent}
it
is
not
snc
that
is
a
bad
employer
,
it
is
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
this
tory
government
which
is
a
bad
employer
by
letting
down
the
people
who
work
for
it
.
{sent}
that
is
what
is
wrong
.
{sent}
all
the
tory
members
in
this
house
,
all
211
of
them
,
those
who
are
here
right
now
,
every
one
of
them
,
i
am
sure
,
deep
down
in
their
hearts
agrees
with
me
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
the
hon.
member
who
represents
that
riding
would
want
to
speak
on
behalf
of
his
constituents
.
{sent}
or
he
should
.
{sent}
however
,
they
will
not
hold
their
breath
because
it
just
may
be
that
the
tory
members
i
have
just
described
will
not
seize
this
occasion
to
speak
on
behalf
of
the
people
they
represent
.
{sent}
why
is
it
we
had
a
hard
time
getting
even
a
response
to
a
phone
call
from
the
employees
?
{sent}
i
cannot
understand
that
.
{sent}
it
is
my
hope
that
in
the
next
few
moments
all
conservative
members
of
parliament
will
seize
this
opportunity
and
tell
the
government
it
is
time
to
come
to
its
senses
and
act
in
a
proper
way
towards
the
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
i
remember
when
i
was
a
boy
...
{sent}
mrs.
mailly
:
that
was
a
long
time
ago
!
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
yes
,
a
long
time
ago
.
{sent}
i
used
to
live
in
toronto
,
in
port
credit
,
ontario
,
in
etobicoke
,
near
lakeshore
,
west
of
toronto
,
and
we
had
a
cal
plant
there
.
{sent}
many
people
,
many
workers
worked
for
canadian
arsenals
limited
.
{sent}
i
understand
that
it
has
cut
down
considerably
.
{sent}
as
i
was
saying
in
french
,
this
was
a
great
corporation
which
had
many
factories
that
produced
a
lot
of
munitions
for
canadian
soldiers
and
soldiers
of
other
countries
during
the
war
.
{sent}
as
a
young
boy
,
i
remember
seeing
the
plants
in
my
area
and
talking
to
some
of
the
older
men
who
worked
there
.
{sent}
i
am
afraid
that
if
the
government
privatizes
canadian
arsenals
it
will
destroy
an
excellent
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
while
i
am
not
saying
it
will
happen
,
the
owners
could
rationalize
and
we
would
not
see
any
canadian
aresenals
limited
at
all
.
{sent}
motion
no.
4
states
:
{sent}
that
bill
c-87
,
be
amended
in
clause
12
by
striking
out
lines
35
to
37
at
page
5
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
"
12
.
{sent}
this
act
shall
come
into
force
after
december
31
,
1987
,
on
a
date
to
be
fixed
by
proclamation
.
"
{sent}
this
motion
was
moved
by
my
seat-mate
,
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
centre
(
mr.
cassidy
)
.
{sent}
it
postpones
the
coming
into
force
of
the
act
.
{sent}
i
prefer
that
canadian
arsenals
not
be
privatized
at
all
.
{sent}
however
,
if
it
is
to
be
sold
,
surely
the
government
owes
some
guarantees
to
the
workers
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
after
listening
to
some
government
members
,
i
cannot
help
but
say
advisedly
that
the
workers
are
lucky
in
a
sense
because
at
least
we
can
debate
this
in
parliament
.
{sent}
my
constituency
office
in
vancouver
--
kingsway
has
an
open
house
on
the
weekends
.
{sent}
i
have
seen
cases
of
constituents
who
work
in
private
sector
companies
that
have
been
bought
up
or
merged
with
another
company
.
{sent}
my
constituents
have
told
me
of
the
difficulties
they
have
in
adjusting
to
a
takeover
or
sale
of
a
company
.
{sent}
sometimes
members
who
are
lawyers
,
doctors
and
businessmen
and
have
many
job
options
forget
how
tough
it
is
on
the
workers
.
{sent}
we
must
not
forget
that
there
are
many
workers
in
places
like
canadian
arsenals
who
have
worked
for
years
and
believe
they
have
some
job
security
.
{sent}
it
is
a
scary
world
when
one
is
faced
with
finding
another
job
,
yet
this
happens
often
with
a
lot
of
companies
.
{sent}
a
union
can
be
succeeded
by
another
union
so
that
there
is
some
protection
.
{sent}
occasionally
,
however
,
that
protection
does
not
exist
,
and
this
is
a
good
example
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
centre
is
a
tireless
worker
for
public
servants
.
{sent}
this
causes
insecurity
and
is
an
unsettling
situation
for
these
workers
who
are
worried
about
losing
their
jobs
.
{sent}
they
cannot
simply
go
hunting
.
{sent}
i
see
the
hon.
member
for
nunatsiaq
(
mr.
suluk
)
taking
copious
notes
about
my
speech
,
preparing
to
reply
when
i
am
finished
.
{sent}
i
understand
that
he
just
returned
from
hunting
in
the
canadian
arctic
.
{sent}
he
knows
that
it
is
nice
to
get
out
and
go
hunting
but
we
have
to
work
too
.
{sent}
my
point
is
that
there
must
be
job
security
for
the
workers
.
{sent}
it
is
my
understanding
that
the
snc
group
of
montreal
has
already
manufactured
munitions
as
part
of
its
other
investments
.
{sent}
it
could
give
canadian
arsenals
a
low
priority
.
{sent}
this
would
affect
the
workers
,
and
they
want
to
know
about
it
.
{sent}
they
want
to
see
a
corporate
plan
,
and
such
a
plan
should
be
filed
with
the
house
,
outlining
what
snc
plans
to
do
with
this
company
.
{sent}
that
is
the
least
the
government
owes
to
workers
in
a
crown
corporation
which
it
is
privatizing
.
{sent}
one
might
ask
why
the
new
democratic
party
is
challenging
this
legislation
and
moving
these
amendments
.
{sent}
quite
frankly
,
this
is
perhaps
the
first
of
many
privatization
moves
.
{sent}
what
will
happen
when
the
government
privatizes
petro-canada
which
is
100
times
bigger
than
canadian
arsenals
?
{sent}
we
want
to
ensure
that
there
is
a
procedure
that
at
the
very
minimum
will
benefit
the
workers
.
{sent}
we
want
to
know
whether
there
will
be
a
corporate
plan
.
{sent}
we
would
like
to
see
successor
trade
union
rights
.
{sent}
we
want
to
know
what
will
happen
to
the
pension
plans
.
{sent}
the
pension
plan
is
a
cause
for
concern
in
the
private
sector
when
there
are
mergers
or
takeovers
.
{sent}
problems
arise
with
early
retirement
plans
being
carried
over
from
one
company
to
another
.
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
read
the
motion
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
these
matters
have
to
be
considered
.
{sent}
the
member
asks
me
to
read
things
.
{sent}
i
invite
him
to
read
the
submission
made
by
the
public
service
alliance
of
canada
to
the
legislative
committee
on
this
bill
.
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
i
was
there
.
{sent}
where
were
you
?
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
perhaps
the
hon.
member
will
recall
this
.
{sent}
i
invite
him
to
look
at
clause
27
concerning
mobility
rights
and
clause
22
concerning
the
rights
of
employees
.
{sent}
these
are
matters
about
which
i
am
concerned
.
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
that
is
the
reason
for
the
amendment
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
that
is
why
the
member
for
ottawa
centre
put
forward
this
particular
clause
.
{sent}
the
public
service
alliance
stated
at
page
8
of
its
brief
that
in
clause
2
in
the
general
area
of
employee
rights
,
confusion
abounds
.
{sent}
bill
c-87
is
silent
on
the
issue
.
{sent}
despite
the
fact
that
the
sale
requires
a
justification
change
for
labour
relations
purposes
from
canada
to
quebec
,
there
are
no
transitional
provisions
to
protect
the
collective
agreement
.
{sent}
i
invite
the
hon.
member
to
speak
about
this
.
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
i
already
spoke
.
{sent}
i
regret
that
i
was
not
here
to
have
the
benefit
of
his
speech
.
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
you
are
floundering
,
ian
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
i
know
that
he
is
a
senior
member
of
the
house
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
the
minister
of
justice
(
mr.
crosbie
)
wants
to
speak
.
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
you
are
floundering
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
i
would
not
let
the
minister
of
justice
speak
.
{sent}
not
only
would
he
privatize
the
corporation
,
he
would
move
it
to
newfoundland
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
at
this
stage
,
i
regret
that
the
hon.
member
's
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
perhaps
i
could
have
unanimous
consent
of
the
house
for
more
time
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
what
is
it
the
hon.
member
wanted
?
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
i
asked
for
unanimous
consent
to
extend
my
time
,
but
i
heard
someone
say
no
.
{sent}
hon.
chas.
l.
caccia
(
davenport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
motion
before
us
is
one
with
which
i
fully
agree
,
namely
to
postpone
this
measure
until
december
,
1987
.
{sent}
in
that
sense
i
am
not
convinced
that
this
bill
has
been
the
subject
of
a
thorough
and
thoughtful
analysis
.
{sent}
in
the
case
of
canadian
arsenals
,
as
i
understand
it
,
the
competitive
situation
in
the
market-place
would
be
reduced
because
canadian
arsenals
would
be
purchased
by
a
similar
company
thereby
reducing
competition
in
the
market-place
.
{sent}
second
,
i
cannot
understand
why
the
canadian
government
cannot
own
a
successful
company
where
the
returns
go
back
to
canadian
taxpayers
.
{sent}
petro-canada
has
done
extremely
well
and
is
perhaps
a
good
example
of
how
companies
owned
by
the
public
sector
can
be
competitive
with
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
it
can
do
that
very
effectively
.
{sent}
that
view
has
been
expressed
by
a
lot
of
liberals
before
me
.
{sent}
the
suggestion
to
put
off
this
decision
until
1987
has
merit
from
the
point
of
view
of
the
people
affected
.
{sent}
there
is
a
fundamental
principle
at
stake
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
,
therefore
,
that
a
clause
needs
to
be
inserted
in
the
bill
which
deals
with
the
management
and
treatment
of
the
social
security
enjoyed
by
employers
of
canadian
arsenals
until
the
point
of
sale
.
{sent}
i
would
challenge
any
tory
back-bencher
in
this
house
to
say
that
there
should
not
be
the
continuation
of
the
same
benefits
to
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
once
it
changes
ownership
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
they
could
not
say
it
.
{sent}
that
leads
me
to
believe
that
this
bill
was
hastily
drafted
and
certain
considerations
were
not
examined
before
it
was
introduced
in
this
house
.
{sent}
we
should
not
do
that
to
the
employees
of
any
company
.
{sent}
while
we
are
all
in
favour
of
positive
precedents
,
this
one
is
negative
.
{sent}
it
would
set
a
precedent
for
similar
losses
to
be
incurred
by
employees
of
other
crown-owned
agencies
or
companies
like
teleglobe
,
for
example
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
teleglobe
has
been
mentioned
by
speakers
before
me
.
{sent}
should
the
time
come
,
perish
the
thought
,
that
the
government
sells
teleglobe
to
the
private
sector
,
the
employees
of
that
company
would
have
the
same
fate
.
{sent}
the
government
could
say
:
"
the
precedent
has
been
set
.
{sent}
it
was
accepted
at
that
time
and
we
will
roll
along
on
the
same
route
"
.
{sent}
it
is
important
,
therefore
,
to
ensure
that
these
considerations
are
made
part
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
the
social
considerations
which
affect
the
employees'
right
now
have
been
raised
by
the
unions
.
{sent}
they
ask
how
this
will
affect
employees
of
other
crown
corporations
which
may
come
under
the
process
of
privatization
.
{sent}
as
i
said
earlier
,
i
am
not
a
great
believer
in
this
process
at
all
.
{sent}
i
think
canadians
have
been
served
well
by
teleglobe
,
canadian
arsenals
and
petro-canada
in
public
ownwership
.
{sent}
there
is
nothing
wrong
with
these
crown
corporations
being
owned
by
canadians
.
{sent}
there
is
actually
much
to
be
gained
from
that
approach
.
{sent}
it
provides
a
balance
in
a
particular
sector
between
public
and
private
ownership
,
which
is
very
healthy
and
adds
to
the
competitive
spirit
.
{sent}
what
the
government
is
inadvertently
doing
,
i
suspect
,
is
reducing
the
competitiveness
in
this
particular
field
.
{sent}
one
can
ask
why
the
hon.
member
for
davenport
would
put
forward
such
a
notion
without
really
basing
it
upon
his
own
experience
.
{sent}
first
,
it
happened
at
deer
lodge
hospital
in
manitoba
,
a
hospital
in
new
westminster
,
british
columbia
and
a
hospital
in
halifax
,
nova
scotia
.
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
they
are
different
cases
.
{sent}
mr.
caccia
:
yes
,
i
can
see
they
are
different
cases
in
different
provinces
,
but
it
tells
me
that
there
is
the
political
will
at
the
provincial
level
.
{sent}
it
is
only
a
question
of
political
will
.
{sent}
it
is
only
a
question
of
giving
these
considerations
to
the
bill
at
a
time
when
it
is
to
be
introduced
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
,
i
must
say
that
i
support
the
motion
to
postpone
this
decision
.
{sent}
the
impression
i
have
is
that
the
government
did
not
think
about
the
implications
.
{sent}
it
did
not
have
,
perhaps
,
the
experience
to
include
these
types
of
clauses
to
protect
the
benefits
of
the
existing
employees
.
{sent}
the
government
still
can
do
so
,
however
,
and
ought
to
do
so
in
consideration
of
the
fact
that
it
would
set
a
precedent
for
other
corporations
which
the
government
,
perish
the
thought
,
may
intend
to
sell
.
{sent}
i
see
that
you
are
indicating
that
my
time
is
up
,
but
i
have
only
spoken
for
10
minutes
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
that
i
have
to
call
the
hon.
member
to
order
.
{sent}
i
love
to
listen
to
him
but
he
only
has
10
minutes
in
this
particular
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
it
is
always
a
challenge
,
of
course
,
to
follow
the
hon.
member
for
davenport
(
mr.
caccia
)
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
i
seek
clarification
in
terms
of
the
speaking
order
.
{sent}
i
know
that
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
spadina
(
mr.
heap
)
,
sought
to
speak
at
this
point
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
since
the
hon.
member
did
not
rise
,
i
recognized
the
hon.
member
for
york
west
(
mr.
marchi
)
.
{sent}
mr.
heap
:
i
was
rising
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
that
i
did
not
see
the
hon.
member
for
spadina
rise
.
{sent}
if
he
wants
to
speak
,
then
i
will
recognize
him
,
if
that
is
all
right
with
the
hon.
member
for
york
west
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
the
practice
of
yielding
the
floor
to
another
member
should
be
a
practice
to
follow
.
{sent}
however
,
we
will
do
it
today
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
spadina
(
mr.
heap
)
,
on
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
dan
heap
(
spadina
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
thank
the
hon.
member
for
york
west
(
mr.
marchi
)
for
yielding
the
floor
to
me
.
{sent}
there
must
be
more
time
to
give
it
proper
consideration
and
,
perhaps
,
even
to
come
back
for
certain
amendments
which
might
be
quickly
dealt
with
once
they
have
been
properly
discussed
.
{sent}
the
respect
in
which
the
interests
of
the
country
are
not
well
served
is
that
there
has
been
no
clear
reason
shown
why
the
company
needs
to
be
sold
or
why
it
should
be
sold
.
{sent}
it
has
been
successful
.
{sent}
their
jobs
are
about
as
secure
as
any
jobs
can
be
in
the
country
.
{sent}
to
start
changing
ownership
without
giving
a
clear
reason
for
it
does
not
make
very
much
sense
,
especially
in
this
day
and
age
when
companies
which
acquire
their
competitors
often
shut
down
one
or
the
other
of
their
plants
.
{sent}
this
company
also
sells
a
vital
product
to
the
country
.
{sent}
furthermore
,
it
has
been
pointed
out
that
the
likelihood
of
the
sale
of
this
company
to
its
only
sizeable
competitor
will
result
in
a
near
monopoly
for
that
company
.
{sent}
there
will
be
less
control
of
its
operations
by
our
government
.
{sent}
it
is
much
easier
for
the
government
to
exercise
its
responsibility
over
control
of
a
crown
corporation
than
it
is
to
exercise
that
same
control
over
a
near
monopoly
,
if
the
government
sells
a
crown
corporation
to
its
competitor
.
{sent}
i
am
concerned
about
the
fact
that
the
rights
of
the
employees
are
inadequately
protected
and
poorly
considered
by
this
legislation
.
{sent}
the
pension
arrangement
has
not
been
clarified
.
{sent}
there
has
been
some
effort
to
do
so
,
but
it
has
not
been
clarified
to
the
satisfaction
of
the
workers
in
the
plant
or
to
that
of
the
union
which
represents
them
.
{sent}
that
can
be
done
.
{sent}
there
is
precedent
,
in
legislation
,
for
providing
the
workers
with
a
choice
.
{sent}
once
they
have
made
their
choice
of
whether
or
not
they
will
stay
with
the
old
system
or
enter
a
new
one
,
then
the
matter
will
be
resolved
.
{sent}
however
,
this
is
not
the
case
now
.
{sent}
the
matter
has
been
left
in
some
confusion
,
which
is
simply
not
fair
.
{sent}
the
practice
of
dumping
a
union
or
a
pension
plan
by
changing
ownership
is
a
practice
which
is
growing
to
be
much
too
common
in
canada
.
{sent}
this
morning
we
heard
that
the
rate
of
mergers
in
canada
in
the
last
few
years
has
more
than
trebled
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
they
do
have
recourse
in
terms
of
a
wildcat
strike
.
{sent}
there
are
many
other
matters
besides
the
pension
matter
which
these
workers
have
negotiated
over
the
years
.
{sent}
there
have
been
many
examples
of
what
happens
during
a
transitional
period
from
federal
labour
jurisdiction
,
as
in
this
case
,
to
provincial
labour
jurisdiction
,
from
one
owner
to
another
.
{sent}
there
will
be
the
question
of
whether
the
same
union
will
have
successor
rights
.
{sent}
there
will
be
the
question
of
the
administration
of
grievances
throughout
a
period
which
may
be
many
months
,
or
even
a
year
or
more
,
if
there
are
legislative
hang-ups
.
{sent}
there
will
be
the
question
of
the
whole
administration
of
the
labour
contract
.
{sent}
i
have
had
experience
in
a
factory
where
i
worked
for
18
years
as
a
union
officer
,
as
a
grievance
officer
and
as
secretary
of
my
local
.
{sent}
i
know
how
important
it
is
that
grievances
be
handled
promptly
.
{sent}
this
is
a
matter
of
general
labour
law
.
{sent}
if
it
is
delayed
because
it
is
not
known
who
the
official
responsible
is
or
under
what
labour
law
they
are
operating
,
then
there
can
be
an
immense
amount
of
hardship
and
bad
feeling
created
.
{sent}
this
is
unnecessary
.
{sent}
it
could
be
avoided
by
the
proper
interim
legislation
.
{sent}
the
hoist
of
a
year
and
a
half
implies
that
the
proclamation
would
be
at
the
end
of
that
time
.
{sent}
that
need
not
seriously
hinder
the
transition
,
and
it
need
not
hinder
the
profitability
of
these
two
plants
.
{sent}
it
gives
time
to
work
out
these
pension
arrangements
for
the
employees
.
{sent}
perhaps
it
would
even
give
time
to
ensure
that
certain
safeguards
be
written
into
the
agreement
.
{sent}
this
would
ensure
that
the
industry
,
which
is
a
necessary
industry
to
any
country
,
remains
effectively
under
canadian
control
.
{sent}
it
would
ensure
that
neither
will
canada
lack
its
services
when
they
are
needed
nor
will
its
services
be
put
to
a
use
that
is
contrary
to
government
policy
.
{sent}
therefore
,
i
hope
that
hon.
members
will
support
this
amendment
unanimously
.
{sent}
i
believe
the
amendment
speaks
not
necessarily
to
delay
for
the
sake
of
delay
.
{sent}
rather
,
its
purpose
is
to
tell
the
government
that
it
needs
to
go
back
to
the
drawing-board
and
to
be
more
precise
.
{sent}
if
this
legislation
were
delayed
,
it
would
be
strengthened
,
and
that
is
what
we
were
elected
to
do
.
{sent}
if
we
were
elected
to
ratify
holus-bolus
whatever
the
government
intended
to
do
in
quick
and
short
order
,
then
we
would
not
be
fulfilling
the
major
responsibility
inherent
in
the
position
of
a
member
of
parliament
,
in
particular
a
back-bench
member
of
parliament
.
{sent}
we
were
elected
to
ensure
that
the
legislation
that
flows
from
this
chamber
to
the
senate
is
legislation
that
will
protect
the
rights
of
canadians
from
coast
to
coast
.
{sent}
by
its
very
definition
,
a
shareholder
of
a
corporation
dictates
policy
and
should
also
have
information
at
his
or
her
fingertips
.
{sent}
this
afternoon
,
speakers
from
both
opposition
parties
have
spoken
to
the
essential
concern
of
the
union
and
the
workers
,
which
is
that
workers'
pension
contributions
not
be
undermined
.
{sent}
let
us
give
them
that
choice
because
they
deserve
it
.
{sent}
these
individuals
will
be
working
for
a
new
company
.
{sent}
they
will
be
doing
the
same
jobs
,
probably
for
the
same
salaries
.
{sent}
is
it
not
only
logical
then
that
the
contibutions
they
have
made
over
the
years
to
the
pension
plan
should
also
be
brought
with
them
with
some
degree
of
security
so
that
those
individuals
will
know
that
they
and
their
families
will
not
suffer
for
the
change
?
{sent}
it
is
logical
and
i
would
think
that
every
member
of
the
house
would
agree
with
that
principle
.
{sent}
the
government
cannot
,
simply
because
it
is
the
government
,
change
the
rules
of
the
game
after
the
game
has
already
begun
.
{sent}
it
might
be
different
if
the
government
were
to
describe
the
type
of
package
that
would
be
given
to
new
workers
.
{sent}
however
,
the
government
simply
cannot
expect
to
treat
employees
,
who
have
been
working
for
this
firm
for
years
and
years
,
in
a
very
undignified
manner
.
{sent}
that
is
exactly
the
manner
in
which
the
government
is
proceeding
.
{sent}
the
government
has
decided
,
through
a
government
amendment
,
that
it
will
bring
in
the
kind
of
pension
plan
that
it
thinks
is
right
.
{sent}
it
cannot
do
that
.
{sent}
the
government
is
privatizing
this
company
so
it
should
do
everything
all
at
once
.
{sent}
it
should
pay
attention
to
each
and
every
aspect
of
this
deal
.
{sent}
what
the
government
is
doing
is
wrong
.
{sent}
there
is
the
suggestion
that
the
government
is
interested
in
some
aspects
of
the
deal
more
than
in
others
.
{sent}
we
see
that
the
government
is
not
concerned
with
the
welfare
of
800
families
.
{sent}
the
government
is
not
concerned
with
the
investment
made
by
800
employees
.
{sent}
to
a
certain
degree
,
that
is
not
surprising
because
we
know
what
the
government
thought
of
pensioners
some
months
ago
.
{sent}
the
government
was
prepared
,
despite
the
social
contract
signed
by
individuals
across
the
country
,
to
undermine
and
deindex
their
pensions
to
a
partial
degree
.
{sent}
the
government
was
stopped
in
its
effort
by
the
pensioners
in
conjunction
with
the
opposition
parties
.
{sent}
today
the
government
is
not
moving
against
the
pensions
of
senior
citizens
but
,
rather
,
the
pensions
of
individuals
who
are
still
in
the
prime
of
their
lives
.
{sent}
the
government
is
now
attacking
working
families
,
and
that
is
wrong
.
{sent}
that
is
why
members
of
my
party
can
see
some
merit
in
the
proposal
to
delay
this
legislation
.
{sent}
i
am
not
necessarily
concerned
with
the
length
of
time
this
legislation
may
be
delayed
.
{sent}
it
could
be
one
year
,
two
years
or
a
month
.
{sent}
i
am
concerned
that
there
be
an
opportunity
for
more
consideration
to
be
given
to
this
bill
.
{sent}
that
leads
me
to
another
point
.
{sent}
the
25
million
canadian
shareholders
also
wish
to
know
the
philosophy
of
the
conservative
administration
as
it
concerns
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
the
people
are
receiving
conflicting
signals
.
{sent}
why
is
there
this
double
standard
?
{sent}
canadian
arsenals
limited
has
consistently
shown
profits
from
1980
to
1985
.
{sent}
in
1984-85
it
showed
profits
of
$
11.3
million
.
{sent}
it
has
assets
of
over
$
126.4
million
and
has
a
cumulative
total
of
$
36
million
in
profits
over
the
last
three
years
.
{sent}
it
also
has
$
200
million
in
backlogged
orders
.
{sent}
the
conservatives
have
a
philosophy
which
says
that
they
only
sell
companies
that
are
losing
money
,
as
they
preached
with
regard
to
de
havilland
.
{sent}
they
did
not
look
at
every
other
issue
at
which
canadians
wanted
them
to
look
.
{sent}
they
looked
at
canadian
arsenals
limited
and
said
that
they
wanted
to
sell
it
.
{sent}
it
is
a
profitable
organization
and
a
proud
canadian
entity
,
yet
they
saw
fit
to
privatize
it
.
{sent}
i
see
mr.
speaker
signalling
that
my
time
is
up
.
{sent}
i
ask
hon.
members
to
extend
my
speaking
time
because
i
am
really
getting
into
the
issue
and
enjoying
it
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
no.
{sent}
this
act
shall
come
into
force
after
december
31
,
l987
,
on
a
date
to
be
fixed
by
proclamation
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
amend
the
motion
in
such
a
manner
as
to
ensure
that
when
the
ndp
forms
the
federal
government
,
we
will
have
an
opportunity
to
review
this
carefully
and
to
ensure
that
it
will
not
be
considered
a
fait
accompli
.
{sent}
would
it
be
in
order
to
change
1987
to
1989
?
{sent}
i
would
so
move
,
seconded
by
the
hon.
member
for
spadina
(
mr.
heap
)
,
if
that
motion
is
in
order
.
{sent}
would
such
a
motion
be
in
order
?
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
if
the
hon.
member
would
like
to
move
that
type
of
motion
,
i
would
be
glad
to
receive
it
in
writing
.
{sent}
would
he
like
to
do
it
today
or
would
he
like
to
do
it
on
monday
?
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
i
am
sorry
.
{sent}
what
did
you
say
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
am
talking
about
your
motion
.
{sent}
did
you
want
to
present
me
with
a
motion
at
this
time
?
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
i
would
be
pleased
to
write
out
the
motion
and
present
it
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
in
both
official
languages
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
i
move
:
{sent}
that
the
motion
be
amended
to
change
"
1987
"
to
"
1989
"
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
will
accept
it
.
{sent}
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
very
pleased
to
rise
on
this
amendment
which
would
change
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
cannot
speak
now
that
he
has
moved
the
motion
.
{sent}
i
am
afraid
he
is
not
allowed
to
speak
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
why
is
that
?
{sent}
mr.
jacques
guilbault
(
saint-jacques
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
intend
to
deal
briefly
with
the
amendment
which
our
colleague
from
burnaby
(
mr.
robinson
)
has
just
moved
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
who
suggested
to
give
the
government
until
december
31
,
1987
to
think
this
thing
over
was
certainly
looking
in
the
right
direction
.
{sent}
however
,
according
to
the
hon.
member
for
burnaby
,
it
would
seem
that
the
hon.
member
would
need
two
additional
years
to
understand
some
of
the
problems
--
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
they
are
slow
on
the
uptake
on
the
other
side
--
{sent}
mr.
guilbault
(
saint-jacques
)
:
--
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
one
of
the
main
problems
that
the
government
is
having
a
hard
time
to
understand
is
that
the
canadian
state
may
,
as
it
pleases
,
sell
off
a
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
however
,
it
does
not
seem
fair
to
me
for
it
to
sell
off
at
the
same
time
the
employees
of
the
said
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
yet
,
in
a
sense
,
that
is
what
is
happening
.
{sent}
the
workers
presently
employed
by
canadian
arsenals
limited
have
agreed
under
this
bill
to
concessions
that
are
almost
incredible
in
the
labour
movement
.
{sent}
that
is
already
a
lot
,
and
i
suggest
it
is
a
major
concession
.
{sent}
however
,
it
seems
to
me
that
the
government
is
going
too
far
in
asking
them
to
surrender
also
their
established
rights
for
a
pension
plan
to
protect
their
future
financially
.
{sent}
that
is
why
my
colleague
has
moved
an
amendment
,
which
may
seem
ridiculous
at
first
sight
,
to
replace
1987
with
1989
.
{sent}
i
understand
that
my
honourable
colleagues
are
saying
:
they
want
to
stretch
the
debate
.
{sent}
let
us
be
honest
:
surely
we
want
to
stretch
the
debate
.
{sent}
i
will
say
outright
that
it
is
not
right
what
the
government
is
doing
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
oppose
this
and
we
will
stretch
the
debate
as
much
as
we
possibly
can
this
afternoon
.
{sent}
let
us
stop
this
peek-a-boo
game
.
{sent}
that
is
already
a
dramatic
change
.
{sent}
for
the
government
to
ask
these
people
to
surrender
their
pension
plan
,
i
think
,
is
going
too
far
.
{sent}
one
of
the
amendments
we
discussed
earlier
was
introduced
by
my
colleague
for
glengarry-prescott-russell
(
mr.
boudria
)
.
{sent}
that
was
a
reasonable
amendment
.
{sent}
however
,
it
was
not
accepted
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
we
believe
that
certain
aspects
are
unacceptable
.
{sent}
i
do
not
want
to
preach
and
pretend
that
all
the
hon.
members
will
agree
with
me
,
but
certain
things
are
unacceptable
.
{sent}
however
,
we
are
going
to
do
it
by
order
in
council
.
{sent}
the
public
might
not
understand
what
this
means
,
but
i
do
as
i
have
been
a
member
of
this
house
for
a
long
time
.
{sent}
it
means
:
give
us
a
free
hand
and
trust
us
.
{sent}
there
is
no
need
to
do
that
.
{sent}
mr.
bernier
:
the
people
who
watch
you
on
television
.
{sent}
mr.
guilbault
(
saint-jacques
)
:
yes
,
i
am
happy
that
people
can
see
me
on
television
and
i
am
also
anxious
for
them
to
hear
you
,
from
the
beauce
region
.
{sent}
i
want
to
see
whether
you
will
support
the
cause
of
organized
workers
as
much
as
i
do
.
{sent}
i
am
sorry
,
mr.
speaker
,
but
i
should
address
my
comments
to
you
.
{sent}
the
amendment
proposed
by
my
colleague
gave
a
choice
to
the
employees
.
{sent}
they
would
have
been
able
either
to
continue
contributing
to
their
present
pension
plan
with
a
few
changes
for
transfers
,
or
else
to
join
the
pension
plan
set
up
by
snc
.
{sent}
this
seems
logical
to
me
.
{sent}
what
i
do
not
want
to
do
is
to
vote
blindly
.
{sent}
do
you
understand
?
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
for
a
change
?
{sent}
it
would
make
a
change
for
me
because
,
usually
,
i
look
--
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
what
do
you
mean
by
voting
blindly
?
{sent}
mr.
guilbault
(
saint-jacques
)
:
for
heaven
's
sake
!
{sent}
it
is
strange
to
hear
a
government
member
speak
about
voting
blindly
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
did
you
hear
that
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
i
remember
something
being
said
in
this
house
years
ago
that
some
of
us
were
voting
like
trained
seals
.
{sent}
now
someone
on
the
government
side
is
telling
me
that
for
a
change
we
are
looking
at
the
content
of
a
motion
before
voting
.
{sent}
that
is
a
precious
admonition
coming
from
members
on
the
government
side
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
ask
my
colleagues
opposite
--
because
i
said
earlier
,
indeed
,
that
we
intended
to
have
the
debate
go
on
until
5
o'clock
.
{sent}
that
is
not
really
our
intention
.
{sent}
as
far
as
i
am
concerned
,
i
am
ready
to
let
it
pass
immediately
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
very
well
,
we
are
beginning
to
agree
.
{sent}
if
we
can
discuss
a
little
,
we
are
going
to
agree
.
{sent}
i
simply
want
clarifications
on
how
those
employees
will
have
their
pension
plan
protected
.
{sent}
if
we
could
get
that
,
the
bill
would
go
through
rapidly
,
the
sale
would
take
place
.
{sent}
not
only
are
snc
employees
concerned
,
but
snc
itself
is
also
getting
impatient
.
{sent}
the
company
is
ready
to
reach
an
agreement
with
the
government
,
they
want
to
buy
the
facilities
,
they
want
to
operate
them
.
{sent}
we
also
have
contacts
with
that
company
.
{sent}
they
are
getting
somewhat
impatient
.
{sent}
they
themselves
made
an
offer
to
the
employees
,
to
the
union
members
who
will
no
longer
be
.
{sent}
but
that
does
not
work
.
{sent}
the
government
is
not
agreeing
to
that
.
{sent}
the
government
says
:
let
us
proceed
with
the
sale
.
{sent}
after
that
,
we
will
provide
for
a
sensible
pension
plan
.
{sent}
i
am
saying
"
alright
,
but
let
us
see
it
now
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
it
beforehand
"
.
{sent}
because
the
employees
know
what
they
have
now
,
a
pension
plan
which
provides
for
full
indexation
,
and
that
is
very
,
very
unusual
in
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
it
would
be
amazing
were
they
to
retain
that
easily
.
{sent}
those
people
are
aware
of
that
fact
.
{sent}
moreover
,
this
allows
for
benefits
to
their
dependents
,
with
respect
to
inheritance
rights
.
{sent}
will
they
be
able
to
get
a
full
pension
at
age
55
as
they
may
do
now
?
{sent}
there
is
no
assurance
of
that
.
{sent}
to
sum
it
up
,
i
am
asking
the
government
to
be
a
little
less
of
an
amateur
in
that
area
--
{sent}
mrs.
mailly
:
that
will
be
some
change
.
{sent}
mr.
guilbault
(
saint-jacques
)
:
no
,
i
am
quite
serious
.
{sent}
i
see
the
hon.
member
over
there
who
is
doing
that
.
{sent}
i
find
this
to
be
amateurish
,
but
let
me
explain
.
{sent}
in
the
first
place
,
this
is
not
the
first
privatization
.
{sent}
there
was
de
havilland
before
,
and
it
is
not
the
last
one
indeed
,
because
that
is
the
government
's
vowed
intention
.
{sent}
that
is
policy
.
{sent}
let
us
therefore
beware
.
{sent}
will
that
be
a
precedent
?
{sent}
those
are
the
questions
we
are
raising
.
{sent}
i
think
we
are
getting
to
understand
each
other
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
to
interrupt
but
the
hon.
member
's
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
kamloops-shuswap
(
mr.
riis
)
.
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
once
again
it
is
a
pleasure
to
be
recognized
by
you
,
mr.
speaker
,
and
to
have
the
opportunity
to
participate
in
today
's
debate
.
{sent}
this
motion
moved
by
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
burnaby
(
mr.
robinson
)
is
in
recognition
of
the
fact
that
there
will
be
an
election
probably
in
1988
and
that
the
government
will
be
replaced
by
the
new
democratic
party
as
the
governing
party
of
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
an
appropriate
motion
.
{sent}
it
provides
us
an
opportunity
ask
some
fundamental
questions
regarding
the
motivation
behind
the
selling
of
a
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
it
is
a
fair
question
to
ask
,
particularly
with
this
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
in
my
estimation
,
in
the
canadian
context
,
the
main
reason
for
business
collapses
is
inefficient
or
inappropriate
management
.
{sent}
the
same
can
be
said
of
many
government
departments
.
{sent}
there
are
departments
inefficiently
run
because
of
an
inefficient
poorly
trained
management
staff
and
peculiar
practices
in
some
cases
.
{sent}
but
in
this
instance
we
are
talking
about
a
crown
corporation
,
canadian
arsenals
,
that
does
very
well
for
itself
.
{sent}
the
company
had
profits
in
its
last
fiscal
year
of
$
11.3
million
.
{sent}
it
is
not
the
largest
company
in
canada
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
it
hardly
ranks
among
the
top
500
in
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
actually
in
the
470
range
,
yet
the
company
was
ranked
third
in
canada
for
its
five-year
profit
growth
by
the
financial
post
.
{sent}
this
is
an
incredible
statement
.
{sent}
it
is
an
extremely
profitable
company
which
has
shown
considerable
growth
over
the
last
five
years
.
{sent}
by
all
projections
,
the
next
five
years
would
look
to
be
equally
lucrative
.
{sent}
projections
are
that
profits
will
increase
significantly
in
the
next
horizon
as
presented
by
firms
that
have
evaluated
the
company
's
performance
.
{sent}
one
must
ask
why
we
are
selling
one
of
the
most
profitable
crown
corporations
in
canada
when
the
government
could
certainly
use
the
revenue
.
{sent}
the
government
could
put
this
$
11.3
million
to
whatever
positive
use
it
determines
,
but
is
,
instead
,
throwing
it
away
.
{sent}
the
sales
of
canadian
arsenals
are
expected
to
double
in
the
next
five
years
.
{sent}
i
am
not
certain
that
that
would
translate
into
doubled
profits
in
the
next
five
years
,
but
there
would
obviously
be
significant
increases
in
the
profit
margin
.
{sent}
the
government
has
decided
to
sell
canadian
arsenals
,
which
is
a
100
per
cent
crown-owned
corporation
,
to
the
snc
group
of
montreal
.
{sent}
the
snc
group
of
montreal
happens
to
own
another
munitions
company
called
ivi
.
{sent}
there
are
only
two
major
munition
companies
in
canada
,
those
being
canadian
arsenals
limited
and
ivi
.
{sent}
the
government
is
creating
a
monopoly
.
{sent}
the
canadian
armed
forces
will
now
be
required
to
purchase
its
munitions
from
a
monopoly
.
{sent}
the
requirement
for
munitions
will
obviously
increase
in
the
future
,
and
we
will
have
to
pay
the
price
set
by
snc
and
it
will
reap
the
profits
.
{sent}
the
present
shareholders
of
canadian
arsenals
are
the
people
of
canada
and
they
have
been
doing
very
well
by
the
profits
of
canadian
arsenals
limited
.
{sent}
we
must
recognize
that
we
are
creating
a
virtual
monopoly
in
the
munitions
business
.
{sent}
we
are
selling
a
source
of
revenue
for
the
federal
government
and
are
adding
to
the
creeping
cancer
in
our
society
called
corporate
concentration
.
{sent}
more
and
more
power
is
being
put
into
fewer
and
fewer
hands
.
{sent}
the
other
day
i
noticed
a
headline
in
the
new
york
times
warning
of
the
takeover
wave
in
canada
.
{sent}
the
americans
are
observing
what
is
happening
north
of
the
border
in
canada
and
seeing
a
business
trend
,
the
usefulness
of
which
they
question
with
regard
to
canada
's
future
.
{sent}
as
we
discuss
this
bill
,
the
government
is
contributing
to
further
corporate
concentration
.
{sent}
in
1984-85
,
canadian
arsenals
had
a
return
on
equity
of
21.4
per
cent
.
{sent}
let
us
recognize
that
the
champions
of
business
are
wilfully
selling
off
a
very
lucrative
business
,
the
development
and
manufacturing
of
munitions
for
our
armed
forces
.
{sent}
what
it
all
boils
down
to
,
mr.
speaker
,
is
that
we
are
dealing
with
the
worst
kind
of
amateurism
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
we
may
recall
that
canadian
arsenals
manufactures
medium
and
large
calibre
munitions
.
{sent}
so
they
don't
have
a
wide
range
of
customers
,
aside
from
the
government
or
perhaps
other
governments
,
that
could
buy
their
products
.
{sent}
there
are
750
employees
at
le
gardeur
near
montreal
and
there
is
another
plant
at
saint-augustin
near
quebec
city
,
with
50
employees
.
{sent}
ninety
per
cent
of
the
company
's
production
is
sold
to
the
government
,
mr.
speaker
,
and
we
know
that
the
transaction
involves
making
calls
for
tenders
.
{sent}
we
asked
what
the
criteria
were
.
{sent}
we
were
told
:
the
price
only
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
later
on
that
people
realized
all
of
a
sudden
that
other
considerations
had
to
be
reviewed
seriously
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
if
we
consider
the
background
of
this
sale
...
and
when
i
say
amateurish
,
i
really
mean
amateurish
.
{sent}
the
government
did
not
take
the
trouble
of
consulting
the
union
.
{sent}
it
could
have
learned
something
!
{sent}
it
did
this
thing
unilaterally
,
something
it
should
never
have
done
.
{sent}
the
union
representatives
question
the
logic
of
the
government
's
sale
of
a
profit-making
corporation
--
and
they
said
so
in
committee
.
{sent}
they
do
not
think
it
is
politically
wise
to
treat
employees
as
it
is
trying
to
do
.
{sent}
this
is
not
a
precedent
.
{sent}
it
was
done
,
a
company
under
treasury
board
jurisdiction
was
privatized
,
so
to
speak
,
and
turned
into
a
crown
corporation
.
{sent}
those
people
were
given
the
option
of
continuing
their
contributions
to
the
pension
plan
and
,
especially
,
of
asking
for
a
transfer
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
they
were
sure
they
could
change
jobs
.
{sent}
that
was
fair
.
{sent}
we
heard
interesting
comments
from
these
people
.
{sent}
even
the
senior
department
officials
might
have
interesting
remarks
to
make
.
{sent}
i
will
simply
read
some
of
the
comments
made
by
mr.
o'toole
.
{sent}
as
we
know
,
mr.
o'toole
--
{sent}
he
is
the
head
of
the
privatization
secretariat
of
treasury
board
.
{sent}
he
is
also
assisted
by
a
mr.
basil
beneteau
who
recently
retired
as
vice-chairman
of
northern
telecom
after
a
career
in
telecommunications
.
{sent}
"
it
was
a
horse
race
to
keep
up
with
the
transactions
in
progress
and
build
a
strategic
framework
,
"
says
o'toole
.
{sent}
i
am
quoting
from
the
report
on
business
magazine
of
december
14
,
1985
.
{sent}
it
goes
on
to
say
:
{sent}
"
i
thought
i
was
going
to
go
nuts
about
august
with
the
fifth
round
.
"
{sent}
for
the
potential
buyers
,
every
bid
revision
added
to
their
costs
,
simply
because
the
government
had
not
done
its
homework
before
putting
canadian
arsenals
on
the
block
.
{sent}
if
the
tories
had
either
adopted
the
approach
recommended
by
their
own
task
force
or
the
one
developed
by
the
treasury
board
secretariat
,
such
problems
could
have
been
easily
avoided
.
{sent}
that
is
what
i
mean
when
i
talk
about
amateurism
.
{sent}
the
tories
simply
had
not
done
their
homework
.
{sent}
they
had
not
thought
about
the
employees'
benefits
.
{sent}
they
did
not
even
give
a
thought
to
them
.
{sent}
you
would
think
that
an
employer
,
someone
who
cared
for
his
employees
,
would
at
least
think
of
the
conditions
into
which
he
is
going
to
be
putting
those
employees
if
he
sells
the
company
.
{sent}
the
government
did
not
do
that
.
{sent}
it
is
the
same
thing
over
and
over
with
members
of
this
government
.
{sent}
they
do
not
do
their
homework
.
{sent}
otherwise
,
the
first
thing
they
know
they
will
be
in
opposition
again
.
{sent}
god
bless
them
all
,
they
are
good
at
that
and
i
wish
them
very
well
.
{sent}
that
might
seem
excessive
to
a
few
people
on
the
opposite
side
of
the
house
who
wish
to
comment
on
the
need
for
better
consideration
.
{sent}
therefore
,
it
should
be
well
considered
.
{sent}
we
should
look
at
the
issues
underlying
it
.
{sent}
there
are
broadly
two
issues
.
{sent}
they
cannot
be
handled
in
a
hurry
,
without
better
public
consideration
than
has
been
given
.
{sent}
the
most
important
issue
has
barely
been
addressed
by
this
government
or
this
legislation
.
{sent}
that
issue
is
the
question
of
who
created
the
company
.
{sent}
who
created
the
wealth
of
the
company
?
{sent}
who
made
it
a
viable
,
profitable
operation
?
{sent}
who
made
it
worth
selling
or
worth
buying
?
{sent}
mr.
bradley
:
nato
.
{sent}
mr.
heap
:
in
my
mind
it
was
not
nato
,
as
one
of
the
clowns
opposite
has
suggested
.
{sent}
it
was
the
working
people
in
those
factories
who
made
that
company
viable
.
{sent}
management
could
have
all
kinds
of
schemes
and
plans
and
spend
all
kinds
of
money
,
but
efficient
production
depended
on
the
workforce
in
the
factory
.
{sent}
management
did
not
get
out
there
with
a
hammer
and
saw
and
build
it
.
{sent}
the
owner
did
not
get
out
there
with
his
hammer
and
saw
and
build
it
.
{sent}
it
was
the
workers
who
produced
the
plant
and
it
is
the
workers
who
produce
the
products
from
that
plant
.
{sent}
this
is
a
point
which
is
commonly
ignored
.
{sent}
it
is
a
point
which
is
becoming
more
and
more
of
concern
to
working
people
in
canada
.
{sent}
they
produce
this
wealth
which
is
then
traded
and
traded
and
traded
in
these
high-level
financial
deals
which
make
absolutely
no
sense
of
the
work
the
workers
are
doing
.
{sent}
very
often
it
even
destroys
their
work
.
{sent}
certainly
it
very
often
destroys
their
opportunity
to
go
on
working
.
{sent}
that
is
why
there
should
be
full
consideration
given
to
the
people
who
in
fact
produced
the
wealth
that
made
this
plant
worth
talking
about
and
worth
buying
or
selling
.
{sent}
on
the
other
side
of
the
coin
,
the
other
consideration
deals
with
the
finagling
that
was
done
in
the
process
of
selling
this
plant
.
{sent}
some
questions
have
been
raised
,
but
i
do
not
think
adequate
answers
have
been
given
.
{sent}
it
may
take
time
to
dig
out
these
answers
to
the
questions
that
have
been
raised
about
the
process
that
the
department
of
supply
and
services
used
in
arranging
the
sale
.
{sent}
i
admit
that
the
department
of
supply
and
services
is
not
as
used
to
selling
as
it
is
to
buying
.
{sent}
previous
members
have
said
that
the
department
was
probably
an
amateur
at
selling
.
{sent}
that
is
the
government
's
problem
.
{sent}
what
we
are
not
told
is
why
all
the
others
were
dropped
.
{sent}
the
department
of
supply
and
services
kept
dickering
with
them
and
changing
the
story
.
{sent}
that
is
not
a
normal
bidding
procedure
.
{sent}
i
will
come
back
to
that
point
later
.
{sent}
mr.
kerr
has
signed
an
affidavit
saying
that
he
did
not
deal
with
any
aspect
of
the
cal
deal
,
but
it
still
raises
a
question
.
{sent}
it
is
the
kind
of
question
which
government
members
would
have
screamed
blue
murder
about
when
they
were
in
opposition
,
screaming
about
conflict
of
interest
.
{sent}
i
come
to
one
interesting
point
,
which
relates
to
the
rather
strange
bidding
procedures
that
resulted
in
this
one
company
being
selected
.
{sent}
according
to
la
presse
,
they
have
paid
$
10,000
to
the
tory
campaign
.
{sent}
we
want
to
know
just
who
influenced
the
deal
and
who
influenced
this
rather
unusual
procedure
in
the
bidding
.
{sent}
what
was
going
on
in
the
back
rooms
that
influenced
the
way
the
value
of
money
changed
hands
?
{sent}
the
value
of
the
work
of
the
workers
in
that
plant
was
being
tossed
around
like
a
football
.
{sent}
as
i
said
,
it
is
the
workers
who
created
the
value
of
that
plant
and
the
value
of
the
products
of
that
plant
by
their
work
.
{sent}
it
is
not
the
money
wheelers
and
dealers
who
created
that
value
but
it
is
the
money
wheelers
and
dealers
who
want
to
scoop
up
the
value
.
{sent}
it
may
not
be
worth
it
to
the
government
,
but
it
is
well
worth
it
to
the
people
of
canada
to
take
some
time
to
look
into
these
questions
.
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
pleased
to
elaborate
again
on
some
of
the
points
that
were
made
earlier
by
--
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
the
same
points
you
made
last
time
.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
--
myself
and
my
colleagues
.
{sent}
there
are
some
members
opposite
who
,
in
the
dying
minutes
of
another
parliamentary
debate
,
do
not
like
seeing
members
of
the
opposition
rising
to
make
their
points
of
view
known
.
{sent}
i
have
been
sitting
here
since
two
o'clock
carrying
out
my
responsibilities
and
i
believe
i
have
earned
my
pay
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
what
members
opposite
have
been
doing
other
than
reading
the
toronto
star
and
seeing
that
the
polls
are
showing
them
down
once
again
.
{sent}
this
is
the
national
forum
for
debate
and
where
political
careers
are
made
and
broken
.
{sent}
this
is
where
we
find
out
who
can
articulate
concerns
on
behalf
of
their
constituents
.
{sent}
i
am
learning
that
it
is
simply
a
case
of
members
of
parliament
from
the
liberal
party
and
the
new
democratic
party
who
have
any
interest
in
or
any
sense
of
obligation
and
compassion
for
the
representations
we
are
receiving
.
{sent}
most
important
,
those
members
opposite
are
receiving
the
same
representations
,
but
the
difference
is
that
they
are
sitting
on
their
representations
while
we
are
bringing
them
forth
in
the
house
of
commons
,
as
is
the
intention
of
this
forum
.
{sent}
my
hon.
friend
and
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
,
quoted
from
an
april
edition
of
business
magazine
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
more
.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
he
quoted
a
number
of
interesting
paragraphs
from
that
magazine
,
and
hon.
members
opposite
are
saying
"
more
"
.
{sent}
when
one
considers
that
quote
in
conjunction
with
the
subamendment
,
it
gives
credibility
and
life
to
that
particular
subamendment
.
{sent}
i
will
not
stand
here
and
suggest
that
i
agree
completely
that
we
should
delay
this
decision
even
though
i
disagree
with
the
decision
itself
.
{sent}
if
that
decision
has
been
made
,
i
think
we
should
inevitably
come
forth
with
it
in
the
proper
way
.
{sent}
that
is
why
i
would
not
support
delaying
this
until
1989
simply
for
the
sake
of
delay
or
waiting
until
the
new
democratic
party
is
elected
to
government
,
as
suggested
by
the
member
from
the
ndp
.
{sent}
if
that
is
the
purpose
,
then
it
will
not
be
1989
,
but
probably
3089
.
{sent}
the
government
should
do
its
homework
on
behalf
of
average
canadians
,
for
a
change
.
{sent}
i
say
"
a
change
"
because
it
seems
that
this
conservative
administration
is
concerned
with
everything
else
but
the
lot
of
the
average
canadian
.
{sent}
it
is
fine
for
those
hon.
members
to
stand
up
and
tell
us
that
this
is
such
a
proud
and
profitable
organization
,
but
i
do
not
know
why
they
are
saying
those
things
at
a
time
when
the
government
is
selling
the
corporation
.
{sent}
if
the
government
is
prepared
to
admit
that
is
so
because
of
the
diligence
and
responsibility
of
those
800
workers
,
it
should
feel
at
least
a
little
obligated
to
give
them
what
is
rightfully
theirs
.
{sent}
when
we
are
discussing
the
future
of
this
corporation
we
should
discuss
the
future
of
those
800
employees
.
{sent}
they
have
invested
their
lives
.
{sent}
they
have
their
pension
contributions
locked
up
.
{sent}
that
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
it
is
not
good
business
,
good
management
,
nor
is
it
fair
.
{sent}
it
is
not
fair
to
the
families
of
those
workers
who
have
a
future
with
that
particular
company
,
whether
it
is
under
government
control
or
under
the
control
of
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
they
will
continue
to
labour
for
that
company
and
,
therefore
,
it
is
incumbent
upon
the
government
to
allow
them
the
opportunities
which
should
be
theirs
.
{sent}
the
government
should
allow
them
to
continue
to
place
with
the
government
of
canada
their
pension
contributions
if
they
so
desire
.
{sent}
the
choice
should
be
theirs
.
{sent}
the
union
disagrees
with
the
government
's
policy
,
the
workers
disagree
,
the
media
disagrees
,
the
two
opposition
parties
disagree
,
and
most
fair-minded
canadians
disagree
.
{sent}
their
question
and
ours
is
,
how
can
the
government
proceed
on
this
basis
?
{sent}
but
the
government
was
rightfully
shocked
to
see
the
mobilization
of
senior
citizens
.
{sent}
the
government
is
thinking
in
the
same
narrow
way
with
the
same
kind
of
"
don't
worry
,
we
know
what
it
is
all
about
"
attitude
with
respect
to
this
pension
issue
facing
the
800
employees
of
canadian
arsenals
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
are
asking
for
time
.
{sent}
we
are
asking
the
government
to
go
back
and
look
at
itself
in
the
mirror
and
ask
itself
if
it
is
approaching
the
issue
on
behalf
of
canadians
as
it
ought
to
.
{sent}
as
the
prime
minister
said
so
often
,
this
is
supposed
to
be
a
government
for
the
people
,
by
the
people
.
{sent}
we
do
not
see
that
here
and
we
have
not
seen
it
thus
far
on
any
other
issue
.
{sent}
the
other
question
is
on
the
government
's
whole
philosophy
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
to
interrupt
the
hon.
member
but
his
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
gander-twillingate
(
mr.
baker
)
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
george
baker
(
gander-twillingate
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
one
would
think
that
with
a
reception
like
that
,
those
hon.
members
would
agree
unanimously
to
let
me
go
on
for
the
rest
of
the
evening
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
sure
.
{sent}
mr.
baker
:
please
don't
.
{sent}
it
is
a
very
confusing
position
.
{sent}
on
the
one
hand
,
the
government
wants
to
get
rid
of
crown
corporations
which
are
profitable
and
,
on
the
other
hand
,
we
see
the
creation
of
crown
corporations
to
save
money
.
{sent}
for
example
,
i
refer
to
the
creation
just
this
year
of
the
crown
corporation
cn
marine
.
{sent}
it
is
very
difficult
to
really
understand
the
policy
of
the
government
.
{sent}
only
today
,
i
understand
,
cn
sold
cn
route
to
a
private
firm
,
so
i
presume
this
house
will
be
considering
very
shortly
the
fate
of
those
employees
and
their
pensions
.
{sent}
the
opposition
is
also
concerned
about
the
attitude
of
the
treasury
board
towards
employees
.
{sent}
the
government
says
that
this
only
covers
18,000
or
19,000
employees
.
{sent}
with
respect
to
crewmen
on
ships
,
there
is
a
line
called
the
102nd
parallel
which
goes
up
through
saskatchewan
.
{sent}
if
one
is
sailing
a
ship
to
the
east
of
that
line
,
one
will
make
$
200
a
month
less
than
if
one
were
sailing
a
ship
to
the
west
of
that
line
.
{sent}
hon.
members
opposite
might
be
interested
to
check
with
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
to
find
out
what
happens
when
a
ship
actually
crosses
the
line
.
{sent}
is
it
any
wonder
that
the
new
democratic
and
the
liberal
parties
are
asking
to
have
another
look
at
this
bill
?
{sent}
we
want
to
examine
government
policy
.
{sent}
the
government
obviously
does
not
know
what
it
is
doing
with
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
for
sure
,
it
does
not
know
what
the
attitude
of
treasury
board
is
towards
its
employees
.
{sent}
there
are
about
3,000
or
4,000
employees
in
the
negotiating
group
of
ships
crews
--
but
i
see
my
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
it
being
5
o'clock
p.m.
,
this
house
stands
adjourned
until
monday
at
11
a.m.
,
pursuant
to
standing
order
3(1)
.
{sent}
the
house
adjourned
at
5
p.m.
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
house
of
commons
{sent}
monday
,
april
21
,
1986
{sent}
the
house
met
at
11
a.m.
{sent}
routine
proceedings
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
government
response
{sent}
price
of
gasoline
{sent}
mr.
vince
dantzer
(
okanagan
north
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
two
petitions
.
{sent}
full
indexation
of
family
allowances
{sent}
mr.
vince
dantzer
(
okanagan
north
)
:
my
second
petition
is
also
from
residents
of
okanagan
north
who
request
that
the
full
indexation
of
universal
family
allowance
be
reinstated
.
{sent}
penitentiary
employees
--
retirement
after
25
years
service
{sent}
request
to
rescind
budgetary
tax
increases
{sent}
the
petitioners
ask
that
parliament
rescind
these
budgetary
tax
changes
.
{sent}
continuation
of
mail
service
--
ste.
rose
du
lac
{sent}
mr.
brian
white
(
dauphin-swan
river
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
the
honour
to
present
to
the
house
two
petitions
from
my
constituents
.
{sent}
the
first
petition
is
from
97
residents
of
ste.
rose
du
lac
who
request
that
the
mail
services
on
rural
route
no.
1
of
ste.
rose
du
lac
be
continued
and
that
no
changes
be
made
to
the
present
service
.
{sent}
request
for
ban
on
pornography
{sent}
mr.
brian
white
(
dauphin-swan
river
)
:
the
second
petition
is
from
66
citizens
of
the
swan
river
valley
and
roblin
,
manitoba
,
who
are
concerned
with
the
many
problems
created
by
pornography
.
{sent}
they
ask
that
the
government
ban
all
pornography
from
canada
.
{sent}
order
paper
questions
{sent}
question
on
the
order
paper
{sent}
(
questions
answered
orally
are
indicated
by
an
asterisk
.
)
{sent}
mr.
doug
lewis
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
following
question
will
be
answered
today
:
no.
538
.
{sent}
st.
clair
river
pollution
investigation
report
{sent}
question
no.
538
--
mr.
caccia
:
{sent}
1
.
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
how
long
will
it
take
to
implement
each
recommendation
that
the
department
is
acting
on
,
either
independently
or
jointly
?
{sent}
hon.
tom
mcmillan
(
minister
of
the
environment
)
:
1
.
{sent}
the
recommendations
listed
in
the
``
st.
clair
river
pollution
investigation
report
''
are
divided
into
three
categories
:
general
direction
,
ambient
conditions
and
pollution
sources
.
{sent}
they
are
being
acted
upon
as
follows
:
{sent}
34
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
action
is
ongoing
on
each
of
the
recommendations
.
{sent}
question
passed
as
order
for
return
{sent}
mr.
doug
lewis
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
if
question
no.
436
could
be
made
an
order
for
return
,
the
return
would
be
tabled
immediately
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
question
enumerated
by
the
parliamentary
secretary
has
been
answered
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
that
question
no.
436
be
deemed
to
have
been
made
an
order
for
return
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
contracting
out
of
mailing
services
{sent}
question
no.
436
--
mrs.
cossitt
:
{sent}
1
.
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
in
the
same
period
,
what
was
the
total
cost
to
the
taxpayer
for
all
contracts
awarded
by
the
government
for
mailing
services
?
{sent}
return
tabled
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
ask
that
the
remaining
questions
be
allowed
to
stand
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
shall
the
remaining
questions
stand
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
order
paper
questions
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
moved
that
bill
c-62
,
an
act
respecting
employment
equity
,
be
read
the
third
time
and
passed
.
{sent}
she
said
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
with
genuine
pleasure
and
,
indeed
,
pride
that
i
stand
to
move
third
and
final
reading
of
bill
c-62
,
an
act
respecting
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
phrase
``
employment
equity
''
is
new
.
{sent}
it
has
only
entered
our
common
vocabulary
in
the
last
18
months
with
the
presentation
of
the
royal
commission
report
by
judge
rosalie
abella
.
{sent}
however
,
the
issue
with
which
that
report
and
this
piece
of
legislation
deals
is
not
new
.
{sent}
the
barriers
to
equality
in
the
workplace
for
too
long
have
hindered
women
,
native
people
,
disabled
persons
and
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
i
can
say
quite
frankly
that
in
the
years
before
this
government
came
to
power
i
heard
a
lot
of
talk
about
fairness
and
equality
but
i
saw
no
action
.
{sent}
what
we
are
seeing
here
today
is
a
government
committed
to
action
in
this
field
.
{sent}
employment
equity
is
more
than
just
a
problem
to
be
solved
.
{sent}
it
is
an
essential
part
of
the
fabric
of
our
nation
.
{sent}
like
bilingualism
,
multiculturalism
and
regional
diversity
,
employment
equity
is
part
of
our
heritage
,
a
heritage
in
which
all
canadians
must
be
able
to
share
equal
opportunities
.
{sent}
the
tabling
of
this
bill
in
the
house
today
represents
the
outcome
of
a
useful
process
whereby
facts
and
information
were
examined
and
collected
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
the
key
step
in
a
multi-step
operation
by
the
government
to
ensure
a
fully
representative
workplace
.
{sent}
we
are
not
content
just
to
talk
.
{sent}
we
are
committed
to
action
.
{sent}
under
bill
c-62
,
employers
must
identify
barriers
to
target
groups
and
they
must
remove
them
.
{sent}
they
must
adopt
special
measures
that
will
involve
senior
level
commitment
and
management
authority
.
{sent}
they
must
begin
immediately
hiring
and
training
target
group
members
in
all
levels
of
the
organization
,
for
example
,
by
moving
women
into
occupations
from
which
they
had
previously
been
excluded
.
{sent}
they
must
show
the
progress
that
they
are
making
.
{sent}
this
legislation
will
cover
federally-regulated
companies
in
such
fields
as
banking
,
communications
and
transportation
.
{sent}
i
refer
to
companies
such
as
ibm
canada
,
xerox
canada
and
ontario
hydro
,
which
have
expressed
their
support
and
are
already
implementing
employment
equity
.
{sent}
many
other
companies
are
now
working
with
officials
in
my
department
to
implement
employment
equity
.
{sent}
what
about
the
effect
of
this
bill
on
members
of
the
target
groups
?
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
a
major
step
forward
in
creating
equal
opportunity
for
women
,
native
people
,
disabled
persons
and
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
the
key
word
that
could
be
used
in
conjunction
with
bill
c-62
is
``
opportunity
''
.
{sent}
this
bill
provides
an
instrument
for
groups
to
use
in
the
pursuit
of
equality
.
{sent}
we
are
not
pretending
that
by
merely
passing
a
bill
we
have
solved
the
problem
.
{sent}
what
we
are
saying
is
that
we
have
created
a
new
set
of
conditions
--
a
new
environment
in
which
equality
will
become
a
reality
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
presents
a
challenge
to
women
,
to
native
people
,
to
disabled
persons
and
to
visible
minorities
--
a
challenge
which
was
,
perhaps
,
best
expressed
by
judge
rosalie
abella
in
her
report
when
she
used
these
words
:
{sent}
equality
is
a
process
of
constant
and
flexible
examination
,
of
vigilant
introspection
,
and
of
agressive
open-mindedness
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
enabling
legislation
,
a
catalyst
for
change
and
progress
,
not
a
set
of
rigid
limitations
and
guidelines
.
{sent}
it
does
not
dictate
the
exact
steps
that
each
and
every
canadian
should
take
.
{sent}
instead
,
it
sets
forth
a
framework
within
which
interest
groups
,
employers
and
governments
can
work
together
to
achieve
solid
social
and
economic
equality
.
{sent}
it
is
impossible
to
be
vigilant
,
as
judge
abella
admonishes
us
,
when
employment
practices
are
hidden
under
layers
of
legal
procedure
and
bureaucratic
building
.
{sent}
in
the
past
,
this
form
of
discrimination
has
been
more
difficult
to
deal
with
,
largely
because
it
is
hidden
.
{sent}
public
disclosure
,
on
which
i
lay
such
emphasis
,
is
but
one-half
of
a
two-tiered
system
for
enforcing
employment
equity
.
{sent}
beginning
in
january
of
1987
,
about
eight
months
from
now
,
employers
will
be
required
to
establish
explicit
goals
and
timetables
for
accomplishing
employment
equity
.
{sent}
at
the
end
of
that
year
they
will
be
required
to
report
on
the
progress
that
they
have
made
toward
achieving
these
goals
.
{sent}
these
reports
will
be
made
public
,
open
to
media
and
public
scrutiny
--
and
this
is
the
second
half
of
the
two-tiered
system
for
enforcing
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
data
will
also
be
made
available
to
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
.
{sent}
for
the
first
time
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
will
have
the
data
that
it
needs
to
initiate
an
investigation
under
the
canadian
human
rights
act
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
miss
macdonald
:
that
data
has
not
been
available
to
the
commission
in
the
past
.
{sent}
this
is
a
key
area
in
which
we
are
moving
.
{sent}
it
is
a
major
change
.
{sent}
he
said
:
{sent}
i
hope
it
's
well
understood
that
we
intend
to
use
this
power
.
{sent}
these
reports
will
provide
a
profile
of
where
target-group
members
stand
in
individual
companies
.
{sent}
data
from
other
sources
,
notably
the
census
,
will
give
us
a
clear
picture
of
how
many
target-group
members
live
in
a
particular
area
.
{sent}
as
i
say
,
these
reports
will
be
made
public
.
{sent}
they
will
be
open
to
the
media
and
to
public
scrutiny
.
{sent}
the
government
is
committed
to
ensuring
that
employment
equity
becomes
a
reality
.
{sent}
we
intend
to
knock
on
the
doors
of
employers
who
do
not
meet
their
responsibilities
.
{sent}
i
can
tell
you
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
we
will
be
knocking
with
a
firm
fist
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
based
on
results
,
not
on
procedures
or
processes
.
{sent}
it
is
based
on
results
in
the
way
judge
abella
admonished
us
to
put
the
emphasis
on
results
.
{sent}
it
is
results
that
count
.
{sent}
for
that
reason
,
we
rejected
the
notion
of
instituting
an
artificial
system
of
quotas
.
{sent}
we
looked
at
the
system
in
the
united
states
in
which
quotas
are
used
and
concluded
that
quotas
tend
to
easily
become
ceilings
that
employers
find
very
comfortable
.
{sent}
once
a
ceiling
is
reached
,
they
feel
that
they
can
stop
and
do
not
need
to
go
any
further
.
{sent}
the
value
and
benefit
of
our
system
is
its
flexibilities
.
{sent}
we
are
telling
employers
that
that
is
not
all
they
have
to
do
,
that
they
have
to
look
further
.
{sent}
we
are
saying
that
employment
equity
requires
constant
vigilance
.
{sent}
employers
must
think
about
employment
equity
in
all
their
staffing
actions
.
{sent}
we
also
rejected
quotas
for
another
reason
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
designed
to
work
in
a
canadian
context
.
{sent}
it
recognizes
the
reality
of
this
country
which
is
that
it
is
a
country
of
regional
diversity
with
widely
varying
resources
and
needs
.
{sent}
by
relying
on
goals
rather
than
on
quotas
,
we
provide
a
degree
of
flexibility
that
suits
the
canadian
economic
picture
.
{sent}
to
quote
gordon
fairweather
again
,
when
he
was
speaking
in
committee
on
this
bill
he
said
the
following
:
{sent}
it
is
one
of
the
strengths
of
the
employment
equity
act
that
it
lets
managers
manage
.
{sent}
each
corporation
can
take
the
steps
that
make
sense
in
its
own
unique
circumstances
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
employment
equity
is
more
than
just
a
matter
of
social
justice
:
it
is
a
viable
concept
.
{sent}
employment
equity
is
a
part
of
our
present
social
and
economic
reality
.
{sent}
women
and
members
of
minority
groups
are
entering
the
labour
market
in
increasing
numbers
.
{sent}
we
live
in
a
world
of
very
rapid
and
complex
change
,
change
that
is
driven
by
new
technologies
,
by
shifting
trade
arrangements
and
by
increasing
interdependence
among
nations
.
{sent}
with
this
change
comes
increased
competition
and
the
need
to
draw
on
all
of
our
human
resources
.
{sent}
in
the
words
of
the
president
of
xerox
canada
,
mr.
david
mccamus
:
{sent}
if
we
discriminate
against
women
,
we
are
limiting
our
options
,
which
is
something
we
can't
do
in
today
's
competitive
environment
.
{sent}
to
compete
,
we
have
to
draw
on
the
best
pool
of
people
available
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
designed
to
convince
all
employers
of
the
wisdom
of
mr.
mccamus
's
words
.
{sent}
it
is
designed
to
show
them
that
it
is
in
their
own
best
interests
as
well
as
the
interests
of
society
to
implement
employment
equity
.
{sent}
in
closing
,
i
would
just
like
to
reiterate
the
essence
,
the
purpose
and
the
goal
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
provides
target
groups
with
an
opportunity
they
have
never
had
before
in
this
country
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
a
springboard
for
public
action
,
and
for
aggressive
,
vigilant
,
open-minded
action
by
the
groups
themselves
.
{sent}
it
is
an
opportunity
for
employers
as
well
to
re-examine
their
business
practices
,
to
eliminate
systemic
discrimination
where
it
exists
and
to
begin
drawing
on
the
full
range
of
talent
that
is
available
across
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
an
opportunity
for
government
to
work
with
target
groups
and
employers
to
achieve
employment
equity
.
{sent}
in
this
endeavour
,
the
government
is
fully
committed
.
{sent}
we
will
use
the
vigilance
and
authority
of
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
to
ensure
employment
equity
.
{sent}
we
will
back
the
commission
with
the
full
weight
of
government
.
{sent}
as
i
said
at
the
outset
,
the
time
for
talk
is
over
.
{sent}
it
is
now
time
to
act
.
{sent}
canadians
need
this
bill
.
{sent}
it
is
already
long
overdue
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
hear
!
{sent}
it
is
merely
a
sham
that
is
being
perpetrated
on
the
four
target
groups
it
is
supposed
to
help
.
{sent}
the
co-chairman
,
beryl
potter
,
in
a
statement
released
this
morning
,
said
the
following
:
{sent}
``
this
bill
will
do
nothing
more
than
provide
the
government
with
employment
information
.
{sent}
it
will
in
no
way
implement
employment
equity
as
there
are
no
penalties
for
failing
to
comply
with
employment
equity
plans
,
''
--
{sent}
she
goes
on
to
say
:
{sent}
``
we
have
tried
everything
.
{sent}
we
have
consulted
with
ceic
staff
,
appeared
as
witnesses
before
the
parliamentary
committee
on
the
bill
,
made
pleas
to
the
prime
minister
directly
and
rallied
on
parliament
hill
.
{sent}
we
have
demanded
that
the
bill
be
amended
to
include
the
government
's
own
departments
and
agencies
and
to
include
a
penalty
for
failing
to
comply
with
employment
equity
plans
.
{sent}
the
government
has
not
responded
to
any
of
our
demands
,
''
adds
potter
.
{sent}
when
the
prime
minister
's
letter
was
finally
received
on
thursday
,
april
17
,
it
in
no
way
answered
the
coalition
's
concerns
.
{sent}
that
is
what
one
of
the
target
groups
that
is
supposed
to
be
helped
by
this
legislation
says
about
the
legislation
.
{sent}
the
other
target
groups
,
the
visible
minorities
,
the
women
's
groups
and
the
native
peoples'
groups
,
are
saying
the
same
thing
as
well
.
{sent}
because
there
is
much
confusion
,
not
only
out
there
in
the
public
but
also
here
in
the
parliament
,
we
must
be
clear
on
what
is
employment
equity
.
{sent}
as
the
minister
said
,
it
is
a
new
expression
.
{sent}
employment
equity
is
not
the
absence
of
discrimination
.
{sent}
employment
equity
is
a
new
term
developed
by
judge
abella
to
include
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
we
all
understood
affirmative
action
,
that
terminology
.
{sent}
it
goes
much
further
than
simply
forbidding
discrimination
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
affirmative
action
says
that
we
must
discriminate
in
favour
of
certain
groups
to
ensure
that
they
are
fairly
represented
in
workplaces
where
they
were
not
represented
before
.
{sent}
that
is
what
we
are
talking
about
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
refer
to
clause
4
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
the
only
problem
is
that
if
employers
do
not
live
up
to
their
obligations
under
clause
4
,
no
penalty
will
be
imposed
against
them
.
{sent}
however
,
under
clause
4
of
the
bill
we
are
supposed
to
go
beyond
that
and
introduce
affirmative
action
programs
.
{sent}
there
is
no
penalty
in
the
bill
or
anywhere
else
if
employers
do
not
proceed
with
those
types
of
programs
.
{sent}
we
could
support
that
;
that
is
very
good
legislation
.
{sent}
however
,
if
employers
do
not
do
what
the
clause
indicates
they
must
do
,
there
is
no
penalty
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
that
is
one
area
about
which
most
of
the
target
groups
are
concerned
.
{sent}
let
me
indicate
some
other
reasons
for
the
bill
not
being
adequate
.
{sent}
in
addition
to
the
fact
that
there
is
no
enforcement
or
penalty
clause
dealing
with
the
key
parts
of
the
bill
,
it
only
applies
to
employers
under
federal
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
of
course
that
is
essential
because
we
cannot
legislate
for
employers
under
provincial
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
by
the
way
,
employers
under
federal
jurisdiction
are
only
a
small
percentage
of
the
total
of
employers
in
the
canadian
labour
market
.
{sent}
in
any
case
,
the
bill
only
applies
to
employers
with
100
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
in
the
canada
labour
code
employers
are
defined
as
those
with
five
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
in
the
affirmative
action
legislation
in
the
united
states
employers
are
defined
as
those
with
15
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
we
felt
that
100
was
too
high
.
{sent}
we
listened
to
the
evidence
and
introduced
an
amendment
which
indicated
that
in
canada
it
should
be
applicable
to
employers
with
a
workforce
of
25
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
some
of
the
witnesses
had
recommended
25
or
more
,
and
we
thought
that
was
reasonable
.
{sent}
the
bill
is
not
adequate
on
that
ground
.
{sent}
it
eliminates
many
employers
from
the
purview
of
the
bill
by
making
the
floor
too
high
,
by
setting
it
at
100
rather
than
15
or
25
.
{sent}
also
,
the
bill
is
wanting
to
the
extent
that
it
does
not
cover
federal
government
departments
and
agencies
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
said
during
the
debate
that
it
was
not
necessary
for
the
legislation
to
cover
federal
departments
because
they
were
already
covered
by
guidelines
introduced
under
the
treasury
board
.
{sent}
those
regulations
were
introduced
by
the
previous
liberal
government
.
{sent}
however
,
we
never
said
at
that
time
that
it
would
be
the
last
word
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
they
were
introduced
at
a
time
when
we
were
still
dealing
with
the
implementation
of
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
and
we
had
not
yet
received
the
advice
of
judge
abella
in
respect
to
these
matters
.
{sent}
the
former
liberal
government
appointed
the
abella
commission
to
seek
out
information
and
advice
on
how
best
to
introduce
affirmative
action
programs
.
{sent}
nevertheless
,
we
introduced
for
the
federal
public
service
affirmative
action
programs
which
are
still
in
effect
.
{sent}
they
will
announce
it
later
,
but
they
do
not
have
to
go
to
parliament
to
seek
changes
,
to
withdraw
those
rules
,
or
to
strengthen
those
rules
.
{sent}
those
rules
can
be
changed
simply
by
order
in
council
in
the
back
room
of
the
cabinet
process
.
{sent}
that
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
why
should
a
heavier
burden
or
a
more
entrenched
version
of
employment
equity
be
placed
upon
the
private
sector
but
not
upon
the
public
sector
?
{sent}
in
many
respects
we
are
making
the
process
much
tougher
in
the
fact
that
the
legislation
will
be
entrenched
.
{sent}
we
are
making
it
more
firmly
entrenched
and
more
difficult
to
change
for
the
private
sector
than
for
the
public
sector
.
{sent}
as
judge
abella
pointed
out
in
her
report
,
the
legislation
should
apply
to
federal
government
departments
and
agencies
as
well
as
to
private
sector
firms
.
{sent}
it
is
also
important
if
we
are
to
give
a
good
example
to
the
provinces
.
{sent}
as
i
mentioned
a
few
minutes
ago
,
the
federal
government
has
only
limited
jurisdiction
in
respect
to
labour
matters
in
canada
.
{sent}
most
firms
and
their
employment
equity
programs
will
come
under
provincial
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
over
the
years
,
going
back
to
the
thirties
,
the
federal
government
has
set
the
trend
in
advanced
labour
legislation
to
protect
employees
.
{sent}
sooner
or
later
the
provinces
came
onside
and
did
more
or
less
the
same
thing
.
{sent}
i
have
mentioned
certain
items
where
this
bill
falls
short
.
{sent}
there
are
no
adequate
penalties
for
federal
employees
,
or
for
employees
in
private
sector
companies
with
less
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
second
,
the
definition
in
clause
4
,
to
which
i
referred
for
affirmative
action
,
is
also
inadequate
.
{sent}
not
only
is
it
inadequate
,
it
will
not
do
the
job
.
{sent}
the
problem
is
that
many
of
these
groups
are
not
in
the
workforce
.
{sent}
the
number
of
disabled
people
in
the
workforce
is
very
small
because
they
cannot
get
jobs
.
{sent}
the
number
of
visible
minorities
is
small
because
they
cannot
get
jobs
.
{sent}
if
you
look
at
the
representation
in
the
workforce
and
use
it
as
a
standard
,
as
this
bill
does
,
it
will
be
very
poor
.
{sent}
the
bill
will
amount
to
nothing
.
{sent}
certain
members
read
out
the
rate
of
unemployment
for
blacks
in
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
extremely
high
.
{sent}
in
some
parts
of
montreal
60
per
cent
to
70
per
cent
of
young
blacks
are
unemployed
.
{sent}
we
have
the
same
situation
in
many
parts
of
the
country
.
{sent}
in
regina
,
winnipeg
and
places
where
there
are
many
native
people
,
both
on
the
reserves
and
near
the
reserves
,
there
are
very
high
rates
of
unemployment
.
{sent}
the
definition
of
being
in
the
workplace
is
that
you
must
have
been
for
an
interview
for
a
job
within
the
last
four
weeks
of
being
interviewed
.
{sent}
many
people
have
given
up
hope
.
{sent}
they
have
tried
and
tried
again
and
again
without
success
.
{sent}
that
definition
is
wanting
.
{sent}
that
was
a
step
forward
.
{sent}
i
congratulate
the
minister
.
{sent}
it
is
a
good
move
.
{sent}
we
also
tried
to
get
an
amendment
which
would
oblige
the
employer
to
consult
with
the
representatives
of
the
target
groups
.
{sent}
very
often
the
target
groups
are
not
very
well
represented
in
the
employees'
associations
or
unions
.
{sent}
it
is
unfortunate
.
{sent}
i
met
a
young
woman
working
in
kingston
in
the
correctional
service
.
{sent}
the
unions
do
not
represent
their
point
of
view
.
{sent}
we
introduced
an
amendment
in
the
house
and
in
committee
to
do
that
but
it
was
turned
down
.
{sent}
it
seems
strange
to
me
because
the
same
logic
applied
there
as
with
the
other
amendment
.
{sent}
in
one
case
the
government
accepted
it
and
in
the
other
case
it
turned
it
down
.
{sent}
in
any
case
,
there
is
still
an
inadequacy
in
the
bill
in
that
respect
.
{sent}
again
i
give
credit
to
the
government
,
to
the
minister
and
to
the
parliamentary
secretary
for
agreeing
that
there
had
to
be
action
plans
.
{sent}
when
the
bill
was
first
presented
to
the
house
there
was
no
requirement
on
the
employer
to
prepare
action
plans
setting
out
goals
and
timetables
.
{sent}
many
witnesses
argued
that
that
must
be
done
.
{sent}
an
employer
shall
,
in
respect
of
each
year
,
prepare
a
plan
setting
out
{sent}
(
a
)
the
goals
that
the
employer
intends
to
achieve
in
implementing
employment
equity
in
the
year
or
years
to
which
the
plan
relates
;
and
{sent}
(
b
)
the
timetable
for
the
implementation
of
those
goals
.
{sent}
very
good
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
but
when
we
get
to
subsection
(
2
)
of
clause
5
it
reads
:
{sent}
a
copy
of
a
plan
--
{sent}
meaning
the
action
plan
.
{sent}
--
prepared
under
subsection
(
1
)
shall
be
retained
by
the
employer
at
the
employer
's
principal
place
of
business
in
canada
for
a
period
of
at
least
three
years
--
{sent}
that
,
however
,
is
too
late
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
the
purpose
of
the
action
plan
is
to
make
public
what
employers
intend
to
do
about
employment
equity
,
about
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
the
action
plan
,
which
is
a
good
thing
,
should
be
made
available
to
the
target
groups
,
to
the
employers
and
to
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
.
{sent}
while
subsection
(
1
)
of
clause
5
is
very
good
,
subsection
(
2
)
is
extremely
wanting
and
is
not
good
.
{sent}
these
are
the
principal
grounds
on
which
we
are
opposing
this
bill
and
why
we
are
saying
the
bill
is
not
adequate
,
but
there
are
other
specific
reasons
.
{sent}
we
tried
to
put
in
the
bill
the
principle
of
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
as
one
of
the
standards
for
employment
equity
.
{sent}
that
amendment
was
turned
down
.
{sent}
we
tried
to
introduce
a
definition
for
reasonable
accommodation
,
a
definition
that
was
very
strongly
supported
and
wanted
by
the
associations
of
disabled
people
,
women
and
others
,
but
that
also
was
turned
down
.
{sent}
that
is
correct
.
{sent}
the
canadian
human
rights
act
was
passed
by
this
house
in
1977
.
{sent}
it
was
introduced
by
a
liberal
government
.
{sent}
the
prohibited
grounds
of
discrimination
are
national
or
ethnic
origin
,
colour
,
religion
,
age
,
sex
,
marital
status
,
family
status
,
disability
and
conviction
for
which
a
pardon
has
been
granted
.
{sent}
since
1977
we
have
had
a
law
which
outlaws
discrimination
in
employment
in
accordance
with
the
section
to
which
i
have
just
referred
on
a
wide
,
wide
basis
.
{sent}
we
all
know
of
the
bakke
case
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
under
the
american
affirmative
action
programs
and
legislation
,
the
supreme
court
ruled
those
out
of
order
because
they
were
a
sort
of
reverse
discrimination
.
{sent}
the
supreme
court
says
that
if
the
law
says
you
cannot
discriminate
,
you
cannot
even
discriminate
when
you
want
to
help
people
.
{sent}
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
in
section
15(1)
states
:
{sent}
we
then
said
in
subsection
(
2
)
:
{sent}
it
was
necessary
to
entrench
in
the
constitution
the
capacity
of
the
federal
and
provincial
governments
to
pass
laws
on
affirmative
action
so
they
would
not
be
ruled
out
of
order
on
the
basis
that
they
were
discriminating
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
in
1977
the
canadian
human
rights
act
was
passed
.
{sent}
in
1981
the
charter
of
rights
was
passed
with
section
15
,
against
much
opposition
from
certain
conservative
members
.
{sent}
the
hon.
minister
supported
it
,
but
certain
members
of
her
party
did
not
.
{sent}
a
process
has
been
ongoing
for
several
years
which
should
have
led
,
by
this
time
,
to
enforceable
affirmative
action
as
was
recommended
by
judge
abella
,
but
that
unfortunately
is
not
being
done
.
{sent}
the
abella
commission
was
set
up
in
june
,
1983
,
as
soon
as
possible
after
the
passage
of
the
charter
.
{sent}
the
commission
reported
to
a
conservative
government
in
october
,
1984
,
after
being
set
up
by
a
liberal
government
.
{sent}
after
a
study
of
more
than
one
year
judge
abella
said
very
clearly
that
mandatory
employment
equity
was
necessary
and
essential
.
{sent}
she
said
that
voluntary
affirmative
action
did
not
work
in
the
united
states
,
is
not
working
elsewhere
,
and
will
not
work
here
.
{sent}
she
said
that
we
need
an
enforcement
agency
with
penalties
and
sanctions
.
{sent}
this
bill
does
not
provide
those
.
{sent}
it
would
be
the
simplest
thing
in
the
world
for
the
minister
to
put
forward
an
enforceable
bill
.
{sent}
clause
7
now
says
:
{sent}
an
employer
who
fails
to
comply
with
section
6
is
guilty
of
an
offence
and
liable
on
summary
conviction
to
a
fine
not
exceeding
fifty
thousand
dollars
.
{sent}
clause
6
simply
requires
employers
to
produce
information
with
respect
to
their
workplace
.
{sent}
we
tried
to
increase
the
$
50,000
to
$
500,000
because
to
many
of
the
large
companies
under
federal
jurisdiction
$
50,000
is
like
a
price
to
steal
.
{sent}
it
would
be
cheaper
for
large
companies
like
bell
telephone
or
the
royal
bank
of
canada
to
pay
the
$
50,000
every
year
than
to
implement
employment
equity
.
{sent}
in
committee
we
supported
an
amendment
put
forward
by
the
hon.
member
for
yorkton
--
melville
(
mr.
nystrom
)
which
would
subject
employers
to
a
fine
if
they
did
not
comply
with
sections
4
,
5
,
and
6
.
{sent}
that
would
have
made
this
a
very
good
bill
.
{sent}
i
also
moved
an
amendment
to
increase
the
fine
to
a
maximum
of
$
500,000
,
but
that
was
rejected
by
the
government
as
well
.
{sent}
i
have
referred
briefly
to
what
other
groups
have
said
about
this
bill
.
{sent}
i
referred
to
the
press
release
issued
today
by
the
disabled
people
.
{sent}
i
also
have
a
press
release
with
respect
to
this
legislation
which
was
issued
by
the
canadian
ethnocultural
council
.
{sent}
it
says
in
part
:
{sent}
in
addition
,
the
absence
of
any
employment
mechanism
or
agency
means
that
voluntary
organizations
with
minimal
budgets
will
have
to
do
the
real
monitoring
.
''
{sent}
that
has
been
taken
care
of
to
a
certain
extent
,
and
i
will
talk
about
that
in
a
moment
.
{sent}
the
press
release
goes
on
to
say
that
this
bill
is
not
acceptable
.
{sent}
they
said
that
slightly
more
than
half
of
management
participants
in
the
study
had
negative
things
to
say
about
racial
minorities
.
{sent}
only
9
per
cent
of
the
199
large
employers
,
all
with
more
than
50
employees
,
stated
a
firm
belief
in
racial
equality
.
{sent}
for
example
,
28
per
cent
of
the
employers
said
they
believed
that
non-whites
in
general
do
not
have
the
ability
to
meet
job
performance
criteria
compared
with
whites
.
{sent}
that
is
part
of
the
problem
.
{sent}
listen
to
them
,
rather
than
us
.
{sent}
we
are
simply
voicing
their
views
because
there
are
not
enough
of
them
in
this
house
.
{sent}
if
the
government
will
listen
to
them
,
it
may
produce
a
worth-while
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
this
bill
simply
requires
that
information
on
employment
equity
be
reported
to
the
minister
and
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
.
{sent}
for
example
,
an
employer
with
100
employees
might
report
in
year
one
that
he
has
100
employees
including
one
woman
,
five
from
the
visible
minorities
,
and
no
natives
.
{sent}
the
company
does
not
want
to
be
fined
$
50,000
under
clause
7
,
so
it
makes
that
report
.
{sent}
the
next
year
it
reports
again
that
it
has
100
employees
,
including
one
woman
,
five
from
the
visible
minorities
,
and
no
disabled
people
or
natives
.
{sent}
it
makes
the
same
report
year
after
year
and
is
never
penalized
because
it
is
reporting
as
required
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
,
unfortunately
,
making
no
progress
on
employment
equity
.
{sent}
it
is
not
introducing
affirmative
action
plans
,
nor
are
there
any
penalties
.
{sent}
this
bill
was
supposed
to
deal
with
that
very
issue
but
does
not
because
the
enforcement
provisions
are
not
there
.
{sent}
the
legal
officers
for
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
argued
before
the
committee
that
he
and
she
thought
they
could
enforce
this
bill
through
certain
sections
in
the
canadian
human
rights
act
.
{sent}
they
referred
me
to
various
sections
.
{sent}
i
am
a
lawyer
and
i
attempted
to
follow
their
argument
but
was
not
convinced
that
they
had
any
way
of
enforcing
the
employment
equity
bill
through
their
legislation
.
{sent}
it
seems
that
the
federal
court
of
canada
agrees
with
that
suggestion
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
(
miss
macdonald
)
has
rejected
the
amendments
that
both
opposition
parties
put
forward
.
{sent}
she
can
use
all
the
rhetoric
in
the
world
and
make
the
best
speeches
to
say
how
good
this
legislation
is
,
but
she
is
not
convincing
the
employees
in
the
target
groups
.
{sent}
this
legislation
could
have
been
a
great
achievement
for
the
government
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
it
is
not
.
{sent}
as
the
disabled
people
pointed
out
when
they
were
here
last
week
,
this
is
a
black
day
for
canada
and
employment
equity
.
{sent}
this
whole
discussion
began
about
a
year
ago
last
march
or
february
with
the
report
of
judge
rosalie
abella
.
{sent}
legislation
was
tabled
before
the
house
,
followed
by
second
reading
debate
and
lengthy
legislative
committee
hearings
at
which
many
witnesses
appeared
.
{sent}
we
have
had
report
stage
debate
and
we
are
now
at
third
and
final
reading
.
{sent}
there
is
still
a
major
difference
between
the
government
on
one
side
and
the
opposition
and
four
target
groups
on
the
other
about
the
purpose
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
all
four
of
those
groups
appeared
before
our
legislative
committee
to
suggest
many
amendments
because
they
believe
this
bill
is
not
strong
enough
and
will
not
reflect
what
is
needed
to
solve
their
problems
.
{sent}
however
,
this
bill
does
not
do
that
.
{sent}
the
enforcement
of
that
equity
is
not
being
provided
with
this
legislation
.
{sent}
i
believe
it
is
worth
while
to
remind
the
house
of
the
election
promise
made
by
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
in
august
,
1984
,
when
many
people
thought
there
would
be
much
tougher
legislation
.
{sent}
he
said
at
that
time
:
{sent}
our
party
will
ensure
that
companies
providing
services
to
the
federal
government
hire
increasing
numbers
of
women
to
perform
such
services
.
{sent}
numerical
goals
are
one
of
several
goals
required
:
training
and
retaining
are
others
.
{sent}
that
is
what
the
prime
minister
said
during
the
election
campaign
in
1984
.
{sent}
i
believe
you
were
in
the
house
last
monday
,
mr.
speaker
,
when
over
100
disabled
canadians
gathered
on
the
hill
to
protest
that
the
prime
minister
has
not
kept
his
word
.
{sent}
beryl
potter
is
one
of
the
leaders
of
the
disabled
groups
in
canada
.
{sent}
she
stated
on
the
cbc
national
news
last
monday
night
:
{sent}
like
the
bill
--
it
's
not
even
worth
the
paper
it
's
written
on
...
i
've
never
been
so
disillusioned
in
my
life
as
i
am
with
prime
minister
mulroney
.
{sent}
i
was
a
supporter
of
him
.
{sent}
i
worked
for
him
in
his
campaign
and
i
am
totally
,
totally
disillusioned
.
{sent}
beryl
potter
of
the
coalition
on
employment
equity
for
persons
with
disabilities
is
a
leader
of
the
disabled
in
our
country
.
{sent}
she
campaigned
actively
for
the
prime
minister
and
the
conservative
party
of
canada
because
she
believed
in
the
prime
minister
and
that
party
.
{sent}
she
believed
that
that
party
would
do
something
useful
for
her
as
a
disabled
person
and
the
people
she
represented
.
{sent}
yet
,
she
said
:
``
i
am
totally
,
totally
disillusioned
''
.
{sent}
when
will
they
begin
to
listen
to
the
people
of
this
country
?
{sent}
one
of
the
great
tragedies
of
a
government
with
an
overwhelming
majority
is
that
it
becomes
insensitive
to
public
opinion
.
{sent}
i
recall
talking
to
a
veteran
conservative
member
of
parliament
about
a
week
after
the
federal
election
in
september
,
1984
.
{sent}
we
won
50
seats
too
many
.
''
{sent}
when
we
look
at
parliamentary
tradition
in
this
country
and
around
the
world
where
there
have
been
large
majorities
,
we
see
that
those
majority
governments
became
insensitive
to
the
will
of
the
people
and
were
often
defeated
after
one
term
in
office
.
{sent}
we
saw
the
problems
with
the
diefenbaker
government
from
1958
to
1964
and
what
happened
to
the
trudeau
government
from
1968
to
1972
.
{sent}
time
and
time
again
,
governments
with
large
majorities
--
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
like
the
present
government
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
--
have
become
insensitive
.
{sent}
like
the
present
government
,
as
one
of
the
conservative
members
is
saying
.
{sent}
one
only
need
ask
beryl
potter
to
see
that
the
same
problem
is
happening
again
.
{sent}
the
prime
minister
said
that
he
would
give
a
reply
as
to
what
could
be
done
.
{sent}
they
went
to
the
prime
minister
's
office
and
had
a
meeting
with
mr.
norquay
in
the
pmo
.
{sent}
they
were
happy
about
that
.
{sent}
you
know
what
happened
?
{sent}
what
happened
was
that
the
prime
minister
broke
a
commitment
that
he
would
,
once
again
,
get
back
to
the
disabled
canadians
before
report
stage
.
{sent}
i
ask
now
why
a
simple
courtesy
like
that
was
not
extended
to
beryl
potter
and
disabled
canadians
?
{sent}
that
is
why
they
were
so
angry
in
the
gallery
of
the
house
of
commons
last
monday
.
{sent}
you
know
what
they
did
in
the
prime
minister
's
office
?
{sent}
they
sent
a
reply
the
day
disabled
canadians
came
before
parliament
to
demonstrate
,
the
day
disabled
canadians
in
the
gallery
spoke
out
against
this
bill
,
and
the
very
day
they
were
here
in
ottawa
.
{sent}
they
did
not
do
it
seven
or
eight
days
sooner
,
as
they
promised
,
before
this
bill
came
back
for
report
stage
.
{sent}
when
the
government
treats
canadians
in
that
way
it
does
not
deserve
to
be
around
very
long
.
{sent}
that
is
the
purpose
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
there
is
nothing
in
the
bill
that
is
going
to
make
it
mandatory
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
employment
quoted
judge
rosalie
abella
a
couple
of
times
earlier
this
morning
.
{sent}
she
did
not
quote
some
of
the
important
passages
that
judge
rosalie
abella
referred
to
when
it
came
to
mandatory
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
i
quote
from
page
195
of
her
report
where
she
talks
about
mandatory
measures
versus
voluntary
measures
that
the
government
has
introduced
in
this
bill
.
{sent}
this
is
what
rosalie
abella
is
saying
:
{sent}
a
voluntary
program
with
a
mandatory
reporting
requirement
is
nonetheless
voluntary
in
the
absence
of
a
requirement
to
remedy
the
discriminatory
practices
disclosed
by
the
information
reported
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
we
need
mandatory
action
.
{sent}
second
,
she
says
,
and
i
quote
:
{sent}
it
results
in
a
speculative
and
scattered
approach
and
creates
the
perception
,
in
the
absence
of
enforcement
,
that
the
issue
is
deserving
of
only
casual
attention
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
she
is
saying
we
need
mandatory
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
one
last
quote
from
her
report
on
page
197
:
{sent}
we
have
a
minister
and
a
government
saying
that
the
court
of
public
opinion
will
prevail
.
{sent}
public
opinion
will
force
the
bank
of
montreal
,
the
royal
bank
,
bell
telephone
and
all
others
to
make
sure
there
is
employment
equity
in
this
country
.
{sent}
i
do
not
believe
that
,
and
the
four
target
groups
do
not
believe
that
,
and
that
is
why
they
want
changes
.
{sent}
i
referred
to
beryl
potter
on
disabled
canadians
,
and
my
friend
from
notre-dame-de-grace
referred
to
a
statement
made
this
morning
once
again
saying
that
this
bill
is
not
going
to
help
them
very
much
at
all
in
this
country
.
{sent}
i
also
want
to
refer
to
other
groups
.
{sent}
we
have
here
a
statement
from
the
inuit
people
of
canada
saying
that
bill
c-62
is
of
limited
value
.
{sent}
we
have
a
quotation
here
from
the
national
association
of
women
in
law
,
suzanne
boivin
,
who
says
:
{sent}
nothing
will
change
,
unfortunately
it
is
simply
wishful
thinking
.
{sent}
we
have
example
after
example
of
target
groups
before
the
committee
that
have
said
exactly
the
same
thing
,
that
this
bill
is
not
good
enough
and
it
does
not
go
far
enough
.
{sent}
what
we
called
for
in
the
committee
were
five
different
principles
to
be
enshrined
in
this
particular
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
one
is
,
in
the
absence
of
real
enforcement
,
adequate
penalties
under
mandatory
equity
schemes
where
necessary
.
{sent}
second
,
we
want
to
have
some
reference
in
the
bill
to
the
whole
principle
of
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
finally
,
we
want
federal
departments
included
in
this
legislation
.
{sent}
those
points
of
view
were
also
supported
by
the
vast
majority
of
witnesses
that
came
before
our
committee
,
and
in
particular
all
the
witnesses
who
came
from
the
four
different
target
groups
covered
by
this
legislation
.
{sent}
in
summary
,
this
legislation
is
voluntary
equity
with
a
mandatory
reporting
process
.
{sent}
i
ask
you
what
is
a
$
50,000
fine
for
bell
canada
?
{sent}
what
is
a
$
50,000
fine
for
the
royal
bank
?
{sent}
what
is
a
$
50,000
fine
for
the
bank
of
montreal
?
{sent}
it
is
peanuts
.
{sent}
now
there
may
not
be
many
big
companies
like
that
,
as
a
member
for
ontario
said
.
{sent}
but
it
is
important
,
as
the
four
target
groups
said
to
have
adequate
penalties
so
we
do
have
some
kind
of
punishment
if
the
law
is
broken
.
{sent}
what
we
suggest
in
our
party
is
that
you
make
the
penalty
clause
apply
also
to
employment
equity
so
it
is
enforced
.
{sent}
but
,
of
course
,
that
is
not
part
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
the
other
aspect
of
this
bill
is
that
when
there
are
reports
the
reports
are
not
made
public
.
{sent}
but
if
there
is
a
report
,
that
is
the
only
part
of
the
bill
where
there
can
be
a
penalty
or
a
sanction
.
{sent}
the
only
penalty
,
as
i
said
before
,
is
through
the
human
rights
act
.
{sent}
the
human
rights
commission
does
not
enforce
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
human
rights
act
cannot
enforce
the
employment
equity
bill
;
it
is
not
part
of
the
mandate
.
{sent}
they
cannot
force
the
bank
of
montreal
or
the
royal
bank
to
hire
more
women
in
the
middle
management
or
senior
management
positions
.
{sent}
what
we
are
hearing
from
women
across
the
country
is
that
this
bill
should
have
within
it
a
clause
which
will
make
sure
it
is
enforced
.
{sent}
another
part
of
the
bill
you
would
find
interesting
is
the
provision
for
what
is
called
an
action
plan
.
{sent}
when
this
bill
was
first
presented
to
the
house
there
was
no
provision
for
an
action
plan
at
all
.
{sent}
we
had
group
after
group
coming
before
us
saying
that
there
has
to
be
an
action
plan
.
{sent}
the
minister
,
to
her
credit
,
introduced
an
amendment
which
will
provide
for
an
action
plan
.
{sent}
ultimately
,
as
the
government
responded
,
they
introduced
an
amendment
for
an
action
plan
which
included
,
of
course
,
goals
and
timetables
.
{sent}
ultimately
,
they
made
sure
that
this
action
plan
remain
confidential
.
{sent}
we
have
an
action
plan
now
which
is
confidential
.
{sent}
the
employees
of
the
bank
of
montreal
,
or
the
employees
of
bell
canada
cannot
have
access
to
the
action
plan
.
{sent}
the
human
rights
commission
does
not
automatically
have
access
to
the
action
plan
.
{sent}
here
is
gordon
fairweather
saying
,
``
you
do
not
have
to
give
us
that
action
plan
,
but
i
think
it
would
be
in
your
interests
if
you
do
so
.
''
{sent}
if
we
are
going
to
have
any
kind
of
industrial
or
economic
democracy
,
surely
the
employees
should
also
have
access
to
action
plans
.
{sent}
i
am
not
sure
what
the
conservative
party
is
afraid
of
.
{sent}
the
conservatives
campaigned
with
very
prestigious
people
like
jed
baldwin
for
freedom
of
information
for
many
years
.
{sent}
i
have
a
great
deal
of
admiration
for
jed
baldwin
.
{sent}
i
remember
his
private
members'
bills
in
this
house
.
{sent}
i
also
remember
the
former
prime
minister
;
i
forget
his
riding
but
his
first
name
is
``
joe
''
.
{sent}
i
remember
that
he
also
took
considerable
action
during
his
short
nine
months
as
prime
minister
in
1979
with
respect
to
better
freedom
of
information
law
.
{sent}
but
we
now
have
a
prime
minister
who
seems
to
ignore
the
root
beliefs
of
his
party
.
{sent}
i
wonder
once
again
why
the
minister
did
not
make
the
appropriate
amendment
on
behalf
of
the
people
of
canada
.
{sent}
another
part
of
the
bill
about
which
we
heard
a
lot
of
criticism
is
its
failure
to
include
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
we
put
a
number
of
amendments
in
committee
which
would
have
made
that
a
part
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
they
would
have
made
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
a
reality
in
terms
of
this
legislation
.
{sent}
i
believe
that
is
very
important
.
{sent}
we
moved
that
amendment
without
success
in
committee
.
{sent}
this
was
something
which
was
called
for
by
the
women
of
this
country
,
but
which
is
not
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
something
else
which
is
missing
in
the
bill
is
contract
compliance
.
{sent}
we
might
ask
,
is
that
not
a
radical
thing
to
do
?
{sent}
is
that
not
too
radical
for
canadian
conservatives
?
{sent}
it
is
not
.
{sent}
if
it
can
be
done
in
the
u.s.
why
can
it
not
be
done
in
canada
?
{sent}
i
believe
it
is
reflective
of
the
fact
that
we
have
a
majority
government
which
is
too
large
and
insensitive
to
the
opinions
of
the
people
of
canada
.
{sent}
in
1980
the
canadian
government
had
contracts
with
some
25,000
to
30,000
firms
with
$
6.5
billion
worth
of
contracts
going
to
the
private
sector
and
some
$
5.5
billion
going
to
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
supply
and
services
alone
in
1982-1983
signed
333,928
contracts
worth
$
5
billion
on
behalf
of
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
so
i
believe
we
must
have
contract
compliance
.
{sent}
i
believe
this
is
exactly
what
the
people
of
canada
want
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
am
sorry
.
{sent}
i
regret
that
the
hon.
member
's
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
however
,
he
does
have
a
period
for
questions
and
comments
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
,
being
such
a
very
popular
hon.
member
,
he
will
have
a
question
or
comment
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
listened
with
a
great
deal
of
interest
to
my
colleague
's
speech
.
{sent}
i
wonder
if
he
could
elaborate
a
little
further
on
the
last
point
he
made
with
regard
to
the
inadequacies
of
the
legislation
before
the
house
.
{sent}
i
wanted
to
hear
more
fully
what
he
had
to
say
on
that
point
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
a
very
wise
question
from
a
very
thoughtful
hon.
member
.
{sent}
it
reminds
me
of
some
of
the
questions
members
of
the
conservative
party
ask
during
question
period
from
time
to
time
.
{sent}
in
any
event
,
i
want
to
make
one
last
point
.
{sent}
i
ask
why
not
?
{sent}
we
should
practice
what
we
preach
.
{sent}
i
make
one
argument
as
to
why
it
is
important
.
{sent}
beryl
potter
on
behalf
of
disabled
canadians
came
here
last
week
and
told
us
that
some
75
per
cent
of
disabled
canadians
who
work
for
our
federal
government
work
on
contract
.
{sent}
they
are
term
employees
.
{sent}
it
is
the
75
per
cent
of
disabled
canadians
who
work
for
the
federal
government
on
contract
who
are
laid
off
.
{sent}
so
i
think
it
is
very
important
to
include
federal
goverment
departments
in
this
legislation
.
{sent}
the
minister
can
say
that
the
government
has
its
own
affirmative
action
program
,
but
that
is
accepting
the
old
liberal
argument
which
this
government
often
does
.
{sent}
the
policies
of
the
federal
public
service
are
totally
management
controlled
.
{sent}
i
think
the
conservative
party
should
be
interested
in
making
sure
there
is
some
participation
by
the
public
service
itself
.
{sent}
second
,
many
basics
of
an
equity
program
are
not
subject
to
a
bargaining
process
under
the
public
service
staff
relations
act
.
{sent}
i
think
they
should
be
.
{sent}
fourth
,
there
have
been
no
initiatives
taken
to
identify
and
eliminate
systemic
discrimination
in
all
aspects
of
public
service
employment
practices
.
{sent}
fifth
,
and
most
important
,
in
my
opinion
,
these
policies
which
are
called
``
treasury
board
guidelines
''
lack
the
force
and
commitment
of
law
.
{sent}
treasury
boards
and
their
ministers
come
and
go
and
the
guidelines
can
change
from
one
government
to
the
next
.
{sent}
our
party
is
urging
that
this
be
made
law
now
.
{sent}
we
should
have
the
force
of
law
behind
employment
equity
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
,
i
want
to
say
that
this
bill
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
all
this
bill
will
do
is
call
for
employment
equity
in
a
voluntary
sense
.
{sent}
that
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
in
a
democratic
society
it
is
very
important
to
have
a
democratic
process
.
{sent}
and
in
this
case
,
the
women
of
canada
,
who
are
in
the
majority
in
this
country
,
are
opposed
to
this
bill
.
{sent}
the
other
groups
are
opposed
as
well
:
native
people
,
visible
minorities
and
the
disabled
,
all
are
against
this
bill
.
{sent}
ms.
sheila
copps
(
hamilton
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
minister
has
described
bill
c-62
as
a
springboard
--
a
springboard
for
miniorities
across
the
country
.
{sent}
such
action
was
promised
by
the
prime
minister
in
his
speech
during
the
women
's
debate
and
throughout
the
course
of
his
campaign
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
instead
of
seeing
the
minister
pull
forward
the
conservative
caucus
,
dragging
them
kicking
and
screaming
into
the
20th
century
,
we
see
that
the
minister
has
been
pulled
back
.
{sent}
she
has
replaced
action
with
rhetoric
.
{sent}
she
has
replaced
promises
made
by
the
prime
minister
,
as
well
as
by
the
conservative
party
,
with
mere
words
.
{sent}
i
refer
to
the
minorities
who
feel
that
this
legislation
does
not
respond
to
the
employment
hopes
and
aspirations
which
they
have
developed
over
the
last
number
of
years
.
{sent}
it
does
not
reply
to
the
concerns
of
the
visible
minorities
or
to
native
groups
.
{sent}
to
whom
does
this
legislation
reply
?
{sent}
it
replies
to
the
real
bosses
of
the
conservative
party
--
the
large
corporations
which
have
now
been
called
upon
by
the
federal
government
to
report
.
{sent}
once
they
make
their
reports
they
can
devise
their
action
plans
.
{sent}
however
,
they
can
keep
these
action
plans
private
and
secret
in
the
confines
of
their
own
corporate
boardrooms
.
{sent}
they
can
deny
,
even
to
the
target
groups
cited
by
the
minister
,
an
opportunity
to
examine
these
plans
to
determine
whether
,
in
fact
,
they
are
delivering
on
their
promises
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
minister
(
ms.
macdonald
)
and
the
prime
minister
(
mr.mulroney
)
said
they
preferred
to
use
the
voluntary
approach
when
dealing
with
equality
matters
and
employment
equity
.
{sent}
however
,
mr.
speaker
,
we
all
know
that
the
voluntary
approach
does
not
work
with
companies
,
especially
the
big
companies
which
see
making
a
profit
as
their
primary
responsibility
.
{sent}
the
equality
for
all
report
put
forward
some
fairly
significant
recommendations
.
{sent}
it
was
an
all-party
unanimous
report
which
specifically
cited
bill
c-62
,
the
legislation
which
we
are
discussing
today
,
as
being
discriminatory
.
{sent}
the
report
stated
that
the
bill
goes
against
the
spirit
of
the
charter
.
{sent}
it
was
cited
as
being
discriminatory
because
of
the
fact
it
exempts
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
here
we
have
the
federal
government
reaching
out
to
companies
which
employ
100
or
more
people
and
saying
:
``
we
are
asking
you
to
launch
an
action
plan
on
a
voluntary
basis
and
to
table
it
.
{sent}
we
are
also
asking
you
to
launch
affirmative
action
programs
within
your
companies
.
{sent}
however
,
we
are
not
prepared
,
in
a
substantive
way
,
through
law
as
opposed
to
legislation
,
to
submit
ourselves
to
the
same
type
of
public
scrutiny
''
.
{sent}
the
minister
will
say
that
the
treasury
board
is
handling
this
matter
through
regulation
.
{sent}
however
,
as
has
already
been
pointed
out
,
any
regulation
can
be
abolished
as
quickly
as
it
can
be
written
.
{sent}
the
second
point
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
the
major
drawback
of
this
bill
is
that
it
applies
only
to
companies
with
at
least
100
employees
.
{sent}
we
know
that
most
companies
will
not
be
affected
by
this
legislation
because
the
majority
of
canadian
companies
are
small
businesses
with
fewer
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
what
happens
to
those
companies
with
only
25
,
30
or
40
employees
?
{sent}
as
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
has
suggested
,
we
might
at
least
follow
the
example
of
the
united
states
where
all
companies
with
more
than
15
employees
are
included
.
{sent}
all
such
companies
in
the
united
states
are
governed
by
federal
employment
equity
regulations
.
{sent}
very
reasonable
and
dedicated
as
he
is
,
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
recommended
that
the
bill
might
be
made
applicable
only
to
companies
with
more
than
25
employees
.
{sent}
he
did
not
suggest
that
all
small
businesses
would
be
affected
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
put
forth
a
number
of
extremely
reasonable
amendments
--
in
fact
,
almost
three
dozen
amendments
--
which
dealt
with
the
sum
and
substance
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
they
attempted
to
redress
some
of
the
inequitities
which
had
already
been
outlined
by
the
all-party
committee
studying
equality
rights
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
only
two
or
three
amendments
,
which
were
certainly
not
the
meat
of
the
matter
,
were
accepted
by
the
government
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
as
with
so
many
of
the
other
promises
of
the
government
,
and
as
with
so
many
other
promises
of
the
prime
minister
,
he
says
one
thing
to
the
women
of
canada
and
another
to
the
companies
of
canada
.
{sent}
when
it
comes
time
to
see
which
interest
group
wins
out
in
the
struggle
for
rights
and
equality
it
is
quite
clear
that
the
companies
,
the
multi-nationals
--
the
imasco
's
of
this
world
--
have
won
out
.
{sent}
the
little
people
,
the
women
of
canada
,
do
not
have
a
chance
.
{sent}
a
report
released
today
states
that
poverty
is
increasing
in
canada
.
{sent}
the
major
groups
hurt
by
poverty
include
groups
of
women
and
children
.
{sent}
if
we
are
to
address
in
real
terms
the
question
of
poverty
and
the
feminization
of
poverty
,
the
only
real
way
to
do
it
is
to
implement
specific
recommendations
to
deal
with
the
wage
gap
.
{sent}
for
every
dollar
earned
by
a
man
,
a
woman
earns
58
cents
,
60
cents
or
62
cents
depending
upon
the
province
.
{sent}
employment
equity
legislation
with
real
teeth
would
not
solve
that
problem
today
but
would
send
out
a
message
,
not
only
to
companies
--
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
ottawa
--
carleton
)
:
louder
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
carleton
(
mr.
turner
)
has
told
me
to
speak
louder
.
{sent}
the
statistics
which
came
out
today
show
that
women
and
children
are
sinking
deeper
an
deeper
into
poverty
.
{sent}
the
government
cannot
even
come
to
grips
with
the
simple
questions
of
early
childhood
education
and
daycare
.
{sent}
a
report
came
across
the
table
to
the
government
calling
for
massive
structural
changes
in
the
way
we
deal
with
early
childhood
education
.
{sent}
the
response
of
the
government
was
to
set
up
another
study
group
and
to
name
as
the
chairman
of
that
study
group
the
hon.
member
for
lincoln
(
mrs.
martin
)
.
{sent}
when
the
hon.
member
for
lincoln
was
first
elected
,
her
office
was
quoted
as
saying
that
she
was
not
interested
in
women
's
issues
because
women
only
made
up
1.5
per
cent
of
her
riding
in
any
event
.
{sent}
this
is
the
person
the
government
has
appointed
to
chair
a
new
task
force
on
early
childhood
education
.
{sent}
the
government
does
not
believe
in
daycare
.
{sent}
employment
equity
is
just
one
tool
to
be
used
in
trying
to
achieve
equality
.
{sent}
that
is
simply
not
so
.
{sent}
there
are
many
other
factors
involved
,
including
the
education
and
socialization
process
and
the
question
of
the
availability
of
daycare
and
support
systems
for
men
and
women
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
the
situation
is
that
the
government
showered
promises
upon
the
women
of
canada
during
the
election
campaign
.
{sent}
now
when
the
time
comes
to
deliver
on
those
promises
,
the
government
is
unprepared
to
do
anything
as
simple
as
having
this
legislation
cover
the
government
's
own
departments
.
{sent}
if
you
were
in
business
,
mr.
speaker
,
would
you
be
able
to
market
that
concept
?
{sent}
would
you
be
able
to
tell
your
customers
that
you
want
certain
laws
to
apply
to
your
customers
but
you
want
to
make
sure
that
you
are
not
covered
by
them
?
{sent}
what
does
the
federal
government
have
to
hide
?
{sent}
what
do
conservative
members
have
to
hide
?
{sent}
therefore
,
conservative
members
are
not
prepared
to
subject
themselves
to
the
same
scrutiny
that
they
are
prepared
to
impose
upon
companies
with
over
100
employees
.
{sent}
however
,
there
are
four
elements
to
this
bill
at
which
we
need
to
take
a
closer
look
.
{sent}
first
,
the
bill
does
not
apply
to
federal
government
employees
.
{sent}
second
,
it
applies
to
companies
on
the
federal
scene
with
only
100
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
do
we
really
believe
that
a
secret
action
plan
which
is
not
subject
to
public
scrutiny
will
mean
a
change
in
the
employment
situation
for
visible
minorities
,
natives
,
the
handicapped
and
women
?
{sent}
i
do
not
think
so
.
{sent}
as
was
pointed
out
by
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
,
the
actual
wording
of
the
legislation
is
faulty
.
{sent}
in
a
sense
,
current
discriminatory
practices
with
respect
to
employment
will
be
institutionalized
.
{sent}
i
am
referring
to
clause
4(b)
which
calls
upon
companies
to
institute
such
positive
practices
that
are
at
least
proportionate
to
representation
in
the
workforce
.
{sent}
all
disabled
persons
in
the
country
who
currently
receive
benefits
are
not
included
in
this
program
because
they
are
not
a
part
of
the
workforce
.
{sent}
at
the
very
least
,
the
government
should
include
a
clause
which
sets
targets
based
on
the
number
of
people
in
the
population
at
large
and
not
specifically
restricted
to
the
number
of
people
attached
to
the
labour
force
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
give
private
members
on
all
sides
of
the
house
an
opportunity
to
vote
on
this
issue
.
{sent}
therefore
,
i
move
,
seconded
by
the
hon.
member
for
bourassa
(
mr.
rossi
)
:
{sent}
that
the
motion
be
amended
by
deleting
all
of
the
words
after
the
word
``
that
''
and
substituting
the
following
:
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
see
no
problem
with
the
proposed
motion
moved
by
the
hon.
member
for
hamilton
east
(
ms.
copps
)
and
seconded
by
the
hon.
member
for
bourassa
(
mr.
rossi
)
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
about
to
put
questions
to
the
hon.
member
as
part
of
the
10-minute
question
period
.
{sent}
is
that
in
order
now
?
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
will
allow
questions
and
comments
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
amendment
which
the
hon.
member
put
before
the
house
would
send
the
bill
back
to
committee
for
reconsideration
of
clauses
nos.
3
,
5
and
7
.
{sent}
clause
no.
3
is
the
interpretation
clause
which
deals
with
,
for
example
,
whether
or
not
federal
government
departments
should
be
included
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
clause
5
deals
with
action
plans
.
{sent}
clause
7
deals
with
the
sanction
.
{sent}
in
my
remarks
i
argued
that
clause
7
could
be
strengthened
if
the
$
50,000
fine
for
not
moving
ahead
was
applied
to
clauses
nos.
4
,
5
and
6
.
{sent}
would
she
elucidate
,
since
she
made
her
amendment
near
the
end
of
her
remarks
,
on
whether
that
is
what
she
hopes
to
do
in
committee
?
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
should
like
to
take
those
questions
in
reverse
order
.
{sent}
quite
clearly
clause
7
refers
to
a
fine
only
if
the
employer
does
not
comply
with
clause
6
,
that
is
,
the
obligation
to
report
to
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
it
is
the
only
obligation
which
is
subject
to
a
fine
.
{sent}
therefore
,
in
a
sense
an
employer
could
report
as
follows
:
``
i
have
not
done
anything
and
1986
has
passed
.
{sent}
i
have
reported
and
therefore
i
am
not
subject
to
a
fine
''
.
{sent}
we
feel
that
that
is
wrong
.
{sent}
at
the
moment
there
is
no
enforcement
except
wherein
it
deals
with
the
obligation
to
report
.
{sent}
an
action
plan
which
is
to
be
kept
secret
is
in
fact
no
action
plan
at
all
.
{sent}
obviously
we
want
it
to
be
open
and
accessible
so
that
it
can
be
examined
by
committees
of
the
house
of
commons
and
examined
by
the
involved
target
groups
to
see
whether
it
is
being
carried
out
.
{sent}
obviously
we
feel
that
is
wrong
.
{sent}
mr.
mccurdy
:
mr.
speaker
,
first
of
all
i
have
a
question
of
clarification
.
{sent}
do
i
understand
correctly
that
the
amendment
would
apply
to
clauses
nos.
3
,
5
and
7
only
?
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
mr.
speaker
,
one
could
make
it
broader
,
but
the
amendment
before
the
house
at
the
moment
would
call
for
a
re-examination
of
clauses
nos.
4
,
5
and
7
by
the
committee
.
{sent}
clause
4
restricts
application
to
companies
with
100
or
more
employees
and
exempts
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
if
the
committee
decided
in
its
wisdom
that
it
wanted
to
examine
other
issues
,
that
would
possibly
be
within
the
mandate
of
the
committee
.
{sent}
however
,
we
specified
those
three
areas
because
they
were
cited
as
the
most
heinous
areas
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
mr.
mccurdy
:
i
have
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
mr.
baker
:
yes
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
since
the
motion
before
the
house
now
will
direct
debate
,
would
your
honour
rule
on
whether
or
not
the
motion
applies
to
the
entire
bill
?
{sent}
i
know
certain
people
wish
to
restrict
it
to
clauses
nos.
3
,
5
and
7
,
but
i
would
argue
that
we
are
now
examining
the
entire
bill
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
appreciate
the
hon.
member
's
point
of
order
.
{sent}
it
is
a
very
strict
motion
which
deals
with
particular
clauses
only
.
{sent}
i
believe
that
clears
up
the
matter
.
{sent}
mr.
mccurdy
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
understanding
of
the
motion
is
that
indeed
it
applies
to
clauses
nos.
3
,
5
and
7
.
{sent}
if
the
secrecy
of
clause
5
is
objectionable
,
clearly
the
fact
that
the
action
plan
set
out
in
clause
4
is
available
to
no
one
is
just
as
important
,
if
not
more
important
than
the
secrecy
attached
to
the
report
on
clause
5
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
mr.
speaker
,
at
some
point
in
the
future
i
would
be
most
happy
to
introduce
another
amendment
dealing
specifically
with
clause
4
.
{sent}
we
discussed
which
clauses
should
be
included
with
our
procedural
expert
.
{sent}
we
were
advised
that
if
we
included
a
straight
,
blanket
hoist
motion
,
it
might
be
ruled
not
in
order
.
{sent}
it
is
our
intention
to
proceed
at
this
moment
with
those
particular
clauses
because
they
were
cited
by
most
of
the
involved
groups
as
the
areas
within
the
bill
which
were
most
despised
.
{sent}
we
would
certainly
be
prepared
to
proceed
with
clauses
nos.
4
and
/
or
2
and
/
or
other
clauses
at
another
time
.
{sent}
obviously
we
want
to
give
the
government
every
opportunity
to
change
the
thrust
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
mr.
hawkes
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
sat
on
the
legislative
committee
.
{sent}
we
sat
for
many
hours
and
i
believe
we
heard
all
the
witnesses
who
wanted
to
testify
before
us
.
{sent}
when
it
reported
to
the
house
,
the
committee
said
that
it
had
looked
at
those
ideas
.
{sent}
the
testimony
which
is
now
before
the
house
would
indicate
that
the
committee
gave
very
thorough
consideration
to
every
one
of
those
ideas
and
found
them
wanting
.
{sent}
the
committee
was
chaired
by
a
member
of
the
hon.
member
's
party
.
{sent}
is
she
saying
that
the
chairmanship
was
not
in
order
or
was
not
good
chairmanship
?
{sent}
is
she
saying
that
the
composition
of
the
committee
was
not
good
?
{sent}
is
she
saying
that
the
witnesses
were
inappropriate
?
{sent}
what
complaint
does
she
have
in
terms
of
how
the
committee
functioned
?
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
will
allow
the
hon.
member
for
hamilton
east
(
ms.
copps
)
to
reply
,
if
she
will
do
so
quickly
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
mr.
speaker
,
obviously
i
have
some
concerns
about
the
composition
of
the
committee
.
{sent}
it
was
made
up
of
a
majority
of
tories
who
chose
to
ignore
the
representations
of
every
single
target
group
cited
:
women
,
visible
minorities
,
native
canadians
as
well
as
the
handicapped
.
{sent}
they
have
all
been
ignored
in
this
bill
.
{sent}
they
are
the
ones
who
came
forth
with
these
recommendations
.
{sent}
had
the
membership
of
the
committee
been
made
up
of
a
majority
of
liberals
and
new
democrats
,
no
doubt
the
amendments
would
have
passed
.
{sent}
yes
,
i
would
like
to
throw
most
of
the
tories
off
the
committee
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
it
being
one
o'clock
,
i
do
now
leave
the
chair
until
2
p.m.
{sent}
at
1.01
p.m.
the
house
took
recess
.
{sent}
s.o.
21
{sent}
after
recess
{sent}
the
house
resumed
at
2
p.m.
{sent}
statements
pursuant
to
s.o.
21
{sent}
energy
{sent}
criticism
of
government
policy
{sent}
mr.
maurice
foster
(
algoma
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
government
's
energy
policy
is
on
the
rocks
.
{sent}
we
have
the
worst
of
all
worlds
--
low
crude
oil
prices
for
producers
,
and
high
retail
prices
for
consumers
.
{sent}
last
year
the
government
promised
hundreds
of
thousands
of
jobs
and
that
energy
would
be
the
engine
of
growth
for
the
canadian
economy
.
{sent}
today
we
see
low
oil
prices
for
exploration
and
development
in
western
canada
.
{sent}
cut-backs
of
$
3
billion
to
$
4
billion
are
expected
this
year
in
exploration
and
development
,
a
loss
of
100,000
jobs
to
the
canadian
economy
.
{sent}
the
loss
is
not
only
in
western
canada
but
in
communities
like
sault
ste.
marie
at
algoma
steel
where
1,500
jobs
will
be
lost
due
to
the
government
's
policy
on
energy
.
{sent}
tory
energy
policy
is
the
worst
of
all
worlds
.
{sent}
mines
and
mining
{sent}
cominco
lay-offs
in
trail
,
b.c.
{sent}
the
major
regional
employer
,
cominco
,
has
laid
off
500
employees
this
year
alone
in
trail
and
at
its
lead
mine
in
kimberley
.
{sent}
the
future
of
the
area
has
been
thrown
into
jeopardy
by
slumping
would
metal
prices
and
by
the
inaction
of
both
the
provincial
and
federal
governments
over
the
years
.
{sent}
so
great
is
the
uncertainty
surrounding
the
future
of
the
cominco
operation
and
the
future
of
the
trail
region
that
home
mortgages
are
unavailable
in
some
instances
.
{sent}
while
the
federal
government
has
indicated
a
willingness
to
assist
in
modernizing
cominco
's
antiquated
smelter
,
it
has
been
unable
to
work
out
a
co-operative
arrangement
with
the
provincial
government
.
{sent}
the
people
of
the
west
kootenays
are
calling
for
action
by
senior
levels
of
government
,
not
simply
promises
of
action
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
world
commodity
situation
--
farmers'
need
for
assistance
{sent}
mr.
brian
white
(
dauphin
--
swan
river
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
canadian
farmer
makes
a
tremendous
contribution
to
canada
's
balance
of
trade
and
its
economic
well-being
.
{sent}
there
are
approximately
500,000
canadians
employed
directly
in
agriculture
,
and
approximately
2
million
employed
directly
or
indirectly
in
agriculture
and
food
.
{sent}
however
,
canadian
farmers
face
an
uncertain
future
because
of
the
world
agricultural
commodity
situation
.
{sent}
the
federal
government
has
done
a
great
deal
for
agriculture
,
but
there
is
still
much
to
be
done
in
light
of
the
current
crisis
.
{sent}
science
and
technology
{sent}
benefits
derived
from
investment
{sent}
the
result
is
that
revenue
and
jobs
that
could
have
been
available
have
gone
to
countries
more
technologically
oriented
than
canada
.
{sent}
in
1985
canada
imported
$
12
billion
more
worth
of
high
technology
goods
than
we
exported
.
{sent}
we
import
80
per
cent
of
our
machinery
,
70
per
cent
of
our
transport
equipment
,
80
per
cent
of
our
scientific
equipment
,
80
per
cent
of
our
health
equipment
,
and
almost
all
our
mining
equipment
.
{sent}
in
the
u.s.
there
are
19
technical
persons
per
1,000
manufacturing
employees
,
in
japan
there
are
12
,
and
in
canada
there
are
only
4
.
{sent}
investment
in
research
and
development
will
pay
tremendous
dividends
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
poultry
industry
{sent}
kentville
,
n.s.
--
rebuilding
of
research
facility
advocated
{sent}
mr.
dave
dingwall
(
cape
breton
--
east
richmond
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
bring
to
the
attention
of
the
house
the
request
for
government
assistance
from
the
chicken
producers'
association
of
nova
scotia
.
{sent}
in
june
,
1985
,
a
research
building
used
to
house
a
facility
that
developed
better
strains
of
poultry
was
destroyed
by
fire
.
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
government
's
performance
{sent}
a
review
has
started
of
the
excessive
,
obsolete
,
omnipresent
,
crushing
and
demoralizing
body
of
regulations
that
business
has
to
cope
with
.
{sent}
on
the
basis
of
the
nielsen
report
,
the
standing
committees
of
the
house
will
soon
be
making
recommendations
to
the
parliament
of
canada
to
rid
business
of
the
burden
imposed
by
a
liberal
bureaucracy
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canadian
lumber
exports
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
a
crucial
vote
may
be
taken
in
the
u.s.
senate
finance
committee
tomorrow
on
fast
track
free
trade
negotiations
with
canada
.
{sent}
in
the
british
columbia
northwest
we
have
a
unique
opportunity
to
retool
our
mills
for
markets
outside
the
united
states
.
{sent}
spruce
pine
fir
from
british
columbia
is
recognized
as
the
price-setting
carburetor
for
north
america
.
{sent}
we
should
do
all
we
can
to
diversify
into
the
pacific
rim
,
european
,
and
other
markets
,
due
to
our
vulnerability
to
growing
u.s.
protectionism
.
{sent}
the
monarchy
{sent}
sixtieth
birthday
of
her
majesty
the
queen
{sent}
she
has
always
had
a
reputation
for
congeniality
and
fairness
toward
all
mankind
.
{sent}
this
charming
and
forthright
individual
has
set
foot
on
canadian
soil
15
times
in
the
past
35
years
.
{sent}
she
knows
more
about
canada
than
many
of
our
own
inhabitants
,
having
been
the
special
guest
at
a
myriad
of
events
from
coast
to
coast
.
{sent}
this
mother
of
four
famous
children
,
and
grandmother
of
four
,
drives
her
own
land
rover
,
and
can
fire
a
gun
with
skill
and
precision
.
{sent}
she
is
commander-in-chief
of
britain
's
armed
forces
and
head
of
the
church
of
england
.
{sent}
as
the
ruler
of
49
commonwealth
countries
,
she
attends
400
engagements
a
year
before
the
eyes
of
many
thousands
of
grateful
admirers
.
{sent}
she
is
the
world
's
greatest
and
most
beloved
diplomat
.
{sent}
on
this
,
her
sixtieth
birthday
,
we
send
best
wishes
for
a
long
and
fruitful
life
.
{sent}
god
save
the
queen
!
{sent}
long
may
she
reign
!
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
reduction
in
bank
rate
{sent}
this
development
will
bring
about
further
reductions
in
canada
,
where
the
bank
rate
has
been
declining
in
the
last
few
weeks
.
{sent}
the
reduction
in
the
bank
rate
in
the
u.s.
will
certainly
have
an
impact
,
since
last
friday
,
the
bank
of
canada
already
announced
a
further
reduction
in
the
bank
rate
,
from
9.33
per
cent
to
9.23
per
cent
.
{sent}
furthermore
,
the
bank
of
montreal
has
announced
a
one-quarter
point
reduction
in
all
mortgage
rates
.
{sent}
we
have
good
reason
to
be
optimistic
,
mr.
speaker
,
and
to
believe
that
confidence
is
growing
again
in
canada
after
so
many
years
of
confrontation
and
provocation
under
the
previous
liberal
government
.
{sent}
environmental
affairs
{sent}
big
rideau
lake
--
opposition
to
houseboat
fleet
proposal
{sent}
at
a
time
when
development
along
the
shore
of
big
rideau
lake
is
carefully
regulated
because
of
a
growing
pollution
problem
,
it
is
not
acceptable
to
approve
such
an
operation
.
{sent}
residents
and
users
of
big
rideau
lake
do
not
want
this
development
.
{sent}
canadians
in
general
reject
overdevelopment
in
national
parks
.
{sent}
whether
mountains
or
waterways
the
same
principles
apply
:
overcrowding
means
less
enjoyment
of
the
amenities
,
and
the
likelihood
that
irreversible
damage
will
be
done
to
the
environment
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
the
environment
has
the
authority
in
this
case
.
{sent}
he
should
listen
to
the
people
affected
by
this
proposal
and
put
an
end
to
the
uncertainty
by
rejecting
the
proposal
itself
.
{sent}
national
volunteer
week
{sent}
importance
of
voluntary
organizations
{sent}
mrs.
lise
bourgault
(
argenteuil
--
papineau
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
today
is
the
first
day
of
national
volunteer
week
.
{sent}
across
canada
,
special
events
and
announcements
will
reflect
the
economic
and
social
impact
the
volunteer
sector
has
on
our
daily
lives
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
hundreds
of
volunteers
are
working
in
the
social
,
cultural
,
economic
and
sports
sphere
,
helping
the
needy
and
supporting
local
activities
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
the
volunteer
concept
is
so
important
and
so
widespread
that
our
society
could
not
function
normally
were
it
to
disappear
.
{sent}
i
fervently
hope
that
our
government
will
set
up
a
special
committee
,
to
determine
how
to
provide
effective
assistance
and
support
for
our
volunteer
organizations
and
to
identify
their
special
needs
.
{sent}
finally
,
i
want
to
offer
my
sincere
thanks
to
all
volunteers
,
and
especially
to
those
in
my
riding
of
argenteuil
--
papineau
for
their
tireless
dedication
in
our
53
municipalities
.
{sent}
energy
{sent}
inquiry
why
price
of
gas
in
montreal
is
not
the
same
as
price
in
boston
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
this
means
there
is
a
50
per
cent
difference
between
boston
and
montreal
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
quebecers
want
to
know
why
the
price
can
be
reasonable
in
the
united
states
,
in
boston
,
but
not
in
montreal
.
{sent}
consumer
affairs
{sent}
credit
card
interest
rate
increases
{sent}
if
these
companies
have
a
good
explanation
for
raising
interest
charges
now
when
bank
and
prime
rates
are
falling
,
let
them
tell
parliament
and
the
people
the
reason
for
that
.
{sent}
when
the
cost
of
institutional
money
is
coming
down
why
is
the
cost
of
consumer
credit
going
up
?
{sent}
when
inflation
has
stabilized
,
why
do
credit
costs
have
to
soar
?
{sent}
insurance
{sent}
liability
coverage
--
increased
premiums
{sent}
another
is
the
greed
of
the
overseas
reinsurers
who
have
made
plenty
through
the
years
and
are
now
insisting
on
sky-high
premiums
.
{sent}
the
canadian
insurance
industry
,
including
the
local
agents
,
is
caught
in
the
squeeze
.
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
free
enterprise
system
results
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
last
two
speakers
have
given
good
examples
of
what
happens
to
people
in
a
capitalist
free
enterprise
conservative
system
.
{sent}
s.o.
21
{sent}
oral
question
period
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
forthcoming
u.s.
senate
committee
vote
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
absence
of
the
prime
minister
i
would
like
to
direct
my
question
to
the
deputy
prime
minister
.
{sent}
it
arises
out
of
the
u.s.
senate
vote
tomorrow
on
the
free
trade
issue
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
here
he
is
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
i
will
then
direct
my
question
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
has
the
prime
minister
been
on
the
telephone
recently
with
the
president
of
the
united
states
about
this
issue
?
{sent}
what
concessions
is
the
u.s.
administration
planning
in
order
to
entice
those
senators
to
vote
in
favour
of
the
fast
track
?
{sent}
and
would
the
prime
minister
be
good
enough
to
inform
the
house
what
those
concessions
might
be
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
there
have
been
no
conversations
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
there
have
been
no
conversations
with
the
president
.
{sent}
request
that
prime
minister
meet
premiers
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
i
will
change
the
subject
.
{sent}
there
have
been
no
conversations
between
the
president
of
the
united
states
and
our
prime
minister
.
{sent}
will
the
prime
minister
be
having
conversations
with
his
provincial
counterparts
to
establish
their
position
in
the
talks
?
{sent}
last
week
,
he
attacked
the
provincial
premiers
on
the
subject
of
trade
barriers
.
{sent}
does
he
intend
to
meet
his
provincial
counterparts
personally
,
and
fairly
soon
,
to
clarify
their
situation
in
the
trade
talks
with
the
united
states
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
did
not
attack
the
provincial
premiers
last
week
.
{sent}
i
invited
them
to
eliminate
trade
barriers
at
the
national
and
interprovincial
levels
.
{sent}
i
therefore
insisted
on
this
phrase
when
i
asked
the
provinces
to
make
this
unilateral
gesture
before
trade
talks
with
the
americans
or
at
the
gatt
level
.
{sent}
and
i
think
it
would
be
a
good
thing
for
the
canadian
people
.
{sent}
request
for
parliamentary
debate
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
i
will
wait
for
the
applause
to
die
down
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
the
scattered
applause
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
russian
army
defectors
in
afghanistan
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
absence
of
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
i
will
direct
my
question
to
the
minister
of
state
for
external
affairs
.
{sent}
it
concerns
the
fate
of
six
soviets
who
defected
and
who
are
now
prisoners
of
war
in
afghanistan
.
{sent}
in
october
,
1984
,
the
conservative
government
agreed
to
and
authorized
a
rescue
mission
which
was
shamefully
bungled
and
then
subsequently
cancelled
,
thus
placing
their
lives
in
greater
jeopardy
.
{sent}
why
was
this
mission
allowed
to
be
so
mismanaged
?
{sent}
and
who
in
the
government
,
after
granting
the
approval
,
called
the
shot
to
abort
the
mission
?
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
let
me
thank
the
hon.
member
for
his
welcome
back
to
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
i
have
seen
the
news
reports
in
the
montreal
gazette
.
{sent}
i
will
not
comment
on
all
of
them
.
{sent}
i
will
just
talk
about
the
facts
.
{sent}
the
facts
are
that
the
government
of
canada
has
been
working
very
vigorously
,
using
every
national
and
international
instrument
at
our
disposal
,
to
try
to
come
to
the
aid
of
those
individuals
.
{sent}
request
for
admission
to
canada
{sent}
will
the
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
give
us
an
assurance
today
,
without
further
delay
,
that
he
will
send
his
officials
to
afghanistan
armed
with
ministerial
permits
,
and
lift
these
six
courageous
men
out
of
that
country
immediately
?
{sent}
a
team
of
reporters
has
established
contact
with
them
;
they
seek
political
refugee
status
in
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
not
.
{sent}
oral
questions
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
forthcoming
u.s.
senate
committee
vote
{sent}
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
in
these
circumstances
of
concern
why
has
the
prime
minister
not
communicated
directly
with
the
president
to
discuss
this
urgent
issue
?
{sent}
why
has
he
not
been
prepared
to
put
very
clearly
to
the
president
a
message
that
no
concessions
must
be
given
that
will
harm
our
country
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
take
the
last
part
of
the
hon.
member
's
question
first
.
{sent}
with
regard
to
the
other
question
raised
by
the
hon.
member
,
for
the
moment
this
is
an
internal
american
matter
.
{sent}
our
position
has
been
made
abundantly
clear
.
{sent}
we
will
not
trade
lumber
,
potatoes
or
fish
against
any
advantage
to
secure
a
vote
tomorrow
.
{sent}
we
are
a
sovereign
nation
,
and
not
a
bunch
of
mendicants
as
the
ndp
would
suggest
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
prime
minister
's
position
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
have
never
made
a
suggestion
of
that
kind
.
{sent}
we
have
suggested
the
contrary
.
{sent}
my
supplementary
question
is
the
following
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
has
this
thing
backwards
.
{sent}
our
responsibility
is
to
deal
with
the
administration
of
the
united
states
which
was
elected
by
the
people
of
the
united
states
.
{sent}
that
is
the
one
that
is
in
place
.
{sent}
we
have
dealt
with
it
.
{sent}
that
is
clear
.
{sent}
that
is
our
responsibility
.
{sent}
it
now
falls
into
the
domain
of
the
united
states
and
its
internal
parliamentary
system
for
the
president
of
the
united
states
to
secure
the
appropriate
approvals
of
congressional
committees
.
{sent}
he
is
charged
,
under
the
constitution
and
by
custom
,
with
doing
that
,
and
that
is
his
responsibility
.
{sent}
the
administration
has
responded
.
{sent}
we
have
responded
.
{sent}
now
we
will
see
if
the
united
states
senate
or
members
thereof
view
this
trade
matter
with
the
same
degree
of
importance
as
we
do
.
{sent}
communications
with
u.s.
administration
{sent}
why
has
he
not
communicated
directly
with
the
american
administration
and
made
it
very
clear
that
concessions
that
will
harm
this
country
cannot
be
given
?
{sent}
why
has
there
been
no
direct
communication
at
such
a
crucial
time
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
a
shadow
must
have
a
very
difficult
time
in
a
fight
with
my
hon.
friend
.
{sent}
the
fact
of
the
matter
is
that
we
are
not
sitting
back
.
{sent}
we
have
not
done
anything
that
we
view
as
unimportant
.
{sent}
we
have
already
made
the
case
.
{sent}
that
case
was
accepted
by
the
president
of
the
united
states
and
the
secretary
--
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
but
not
by
the
congress
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
if
my
hon.
friend
from
winnipeg
would
allow
me
to
finish
,
i
would
be
happy
to
try
.
{sent}
our
obligation
is
not
to
form
a
queue
in
senators'
offices
.
{sent}
members
of
the
ndp
are
used
to
that
but
we
will
not
do
that
.
{sent}
we
are
a
sovereign
nation
.
{sent}
we
made
a
deal
with
the
president
of
the
united
states
and
we
expect
the
united
states
to
live
up
to
it
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
canadian
embassy
actions
{sent}
does
the
prime
minister
now
say
that
no
canadian
officials
representing
our
government
at
the
embassy
in
washington
are
to
make
contact
with
u.s.
senators
or
congressmen
?
{sent}
has
he
given
explicit
orders
that
should
be
no
contact
whatsoever
between
embassy
officials
and
officials
of
the
congress
?
{sent}
is
that
what
the
prime
minister
is
now
saying
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
doubt
if
you
would
see
a
more
blatant
illustration
of
distortion
and
dishonesty
than
that
which
has
been
put
forward
.
{sent}
i
said
no
such
thing
.
{sent}
i
said
that
i
had
not
spoken
to
the
president
of
the
united
states
,
but
i
did
not
in
any
way
utter
any
of
the
distortions
mentioned
by
my
hon.
friend
.
{sent}
diplomatic
contacts
{sent}
hon.
lloyd
axworthy
(
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
the
prime
minister
has
just
added
a
second
distortion
to
his
first
one
.
{sent}
in
response
to
previous
questions
he
said
that
he
did
not
see
any
interference
by
this
government
in
the
affairs
of
the
united
states
government
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
gets
progressively
more
pathetic
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
was
in
washington
last
week
with
his
senior
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
saint-henri
--
westmount
,
in
regard
to
this
matter
.
{sent}
he
knows
full
well
that
there
is
an
ongoing
operation
,
occurring
every
day
--
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
so
you
're
interefering
in
their
affairs
then
?
{sent}
you
said
you
weren't
.
{sent}
softwood
lumber
exports
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
also
directed
to
the
right
hon.
prime
minister
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
learn
from
the
prime
minister
whether
or
not
the
government
of
the
united
states
has
requested
any
specific
concessions
from
canada
on
softwood
lumber
exports
in
the
past
two
weeks
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
no
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
canadian
position
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
supplementary
question
is
directed
to
the
right
hon.
prime
minister
.
{sent}
will
he
give
the
house
his
word
that
no
concessions
have
been
given
,
or
will
be
given
on
the
issue
of
softwood
lumber
,
to
the
united
states
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
gentleman
speaks
for
a
party
which
is
opposed
to
freer
trade
with
the
united
states
.
{sent}
he
is
now
trying
to
wrest
ndp
assurances
.
{sent}
they
cannot
have
it
both
ways
.
{sent}
i
know
the
ndp
try
it
every
day
.
{sent}
they
cannot
have
it
both
ways
;
they
are
opposed
to
freer
trade
with
the
united
states
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
i
have
indicated
in
washington
,
and
in
other
circumstances
,
that
we
will
not
allow
the
softwood
lumber
issue
to
be
made
a
bargaining
chip
in
these
discussions
,
and
that
has
been
made
clear
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
russian
army
defectors
in
afghanistan
{sent}
ms.
sheila
copps
(
hamilton
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
.
{sent}
he
has
just
finished
telling
the
house
that
he
did
everything
in
his
power
to
expedite
the
arrival
in
canada
of
the
six
russian
refugees
from
afghanistan
.
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
with
a
developing
adeptness
is
changing
the
subject
.
{sent}
we
have
been
trying
,
using
literally
every
instrument
available
to
us
,
to
get
in
contact
with
them
.
{sent}
immigration
from
soviet
bloc
countries
{sent}
the
only
people
who
are
not
co-operating
are
the
canadian
government
and
the
department
of
external
affairs
.
{sent}
since
the
government
has
taken
power
,
there
has
been
a
reduction
in
immigration
to
canada
from
every
soviet
dominated
and
east
bloc
country
.
{sent}
why
has
there
been
this
reduction
,
when
he
talks
about
his
government
's
co-operation
?
{sent}
with
regard
to
her
earlier
preamble
,
she
has
created
facts
on
the
floor
of
the
house
of
commons
which
are
not
the
case
.
{sent}
what
is
germane
here
is
whether
or
not
there
has
now
been
discovered
by
some
canadians
an
instrument
which
will
allow
us
to
bring
those
six
individuals
to
freedom
.
{sent}
we
have
not
found
one
yet
.
{sent}
if
they
have
found
one
,
we
are
anxious
to
work
with
them
,
and
i
invite
them
to
join
in
consultation
with
us
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
steel
exports
to
united
states
{sent}
mr.
simon
de
jong
(
regina
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
for
international
trade
.
{sent}
as
well
,
will
he
assure
us
that
the
canadian
government
will
assist
canadian
steel
companies
in
the
fight
against
pending
anti-dumping
measures
in
the
united
states
?
{sent}
we
worked
very
closely
with
the
industry
in
respect
of
the
recent
ruling
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
there
has
yet
to
be
an
injury
ruling
,
and
it
is
expected
by
the
end
of
may
.
{sent}
again
we
are
working
closely
with
the
industry
in
respect
of
that
finding
.
{sent}
i
can
also
tell
the
hon.
member
that
,
this
afternoon
,
officials
of
ipsco
are
meeting
with
my
officials
to
discuss
these
various
problems
and
the
upcoming
hearings
.
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
{sent}
mr.
simon
de
jong
(
regina
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
supplementary
question
is
for
the
same
minister
.
{sent}
could
he
assure
us
that
the
canadian
government
will
in
no
way
cave
in
to
the
u.s.
interests
seeking
to
tie
this
issue
to
any
free
trade
discussion
as
a
precondition
?
{sent}
that
just
is
not
there
.
{sent}
we
are
doing
everything
we
can
to
assist
the
steel
industry
with
the
difficult
problems
which
it
is
presently
facing
.
{sent}
airports
{sent}
firefighters'
imminent
strike
{sent}
hon.
andré
ouellet
(
papineau
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
transport
.
{sent}
at
midnight
,
1,400
firefighters
at
airports
across
the
country
will
go
on
strike
.
{sent}
what
emergency
measures
have
been
taken
by
the
minister
to
ensure
that
the
safety
of
the
travelling
public
will
not
be
jeopardized
by
this
strike
?
{sent}
in
the
event
that
there
are
any
disruptions
,
adequate
contingency
plans
will
be
in
place
.
{sent}
inquiry
why
firefighters
have
not
had
work
contract
for
lengthy
period
of
time
{sent}
hon.
andré
ouellet
(
papineau
)
:
i
have
a
supplementary
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
as
i
am
sure
the
hon.
member
is
aware
,
this
is
a
matter
for
negotiation
between
the
firefighters'
union
and
the
treasury
board
.
{sent}
those
negotiations
have
been
going
on
,
and
i
would
hope
they
would
be
able
to
reach
a
satisfactory
conclusion
soon
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
threatened
use
of
subsidies
to
sell
united
states
wheat
to
syria
{sent}
mr.
lorne
nystrom
(
yorkton
--
melville
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
right
hon.
prime
minister
and
concerns
an
important
western
issue
.
{sent}
is
the
prime
minister
aware
that
,
by
using
the
massive
subsidies
in
the
u.s.
farm
bill
,
the
americans
are
poised
to
capture
a
very
important
traditional
wheat
market
that
was
enjoyed
by
canadian
farmers
?
{sent}
hon.
michael
wilson
(
minister
of
finance
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
comment
on
this
particular
issue
because
it
came
up
at
the
oecd
meetings
last
week
in
paris
.
{sent}
the
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
and
i
had
an
opportunity
to
discuss
it
with
a
number
of
ministers
of
foreign
affairs
,
trade
,
and
finance
who
were
at
the
meetings
.
{sent}
it
is
a
matter
which
we
expressed
with
a
good
deal
of
vigour
because
we
are
very
concerned
about
the
outcome
.
{sent}
it
is
still
early
days
to
see
how
it
might
develop
in
the
international
discussions
,
but
they
are
certainly
aware
of
the
point
of
view
taken
by
canada
.
{sent}
minister
's
position
{sent}
mr.
lorne
nystrom
(
yorkton
--
melville
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
supplementary
question
is
for
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
it
was
in
that
context
that
we
raised
it
at
the
broad
meetings
as
well
as
in
individual
meetings
with
ministers
.
{sent}
energy
{sent}
effect
of
lower
oil
prices
on
small
companies
{sent}
mr.
bill
attewell
(
don
valley
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
.
{sent}
with
lower
interest
rates
and
falling
commodity
prices
,
there
is
a
real
risk
that
two-thirds
of
our
smaller
oil
companies
could
be
gobbled
up
by
stronger
multinational
companies
which
control
the
other
third
.
{sent}
does
the
minister
share
this
concern
,
and
will
our
target
of
50
per
cent
canadian
ownership
be
in
jeopardy
?
{sent}
hon.
pat
carney
(
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
yes
,
i
have
indicated
before
that
we
share
the
concern
noted
by
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
we
have
increased
our
levels
of
canadianization
in
the
oil
and
gas
industry
.
{sent}
we
have
not
moved
away
from
our
target
.
{sent}
our
policies
on
acquisitions
do
not
allow
the
acquisition
of
canadian
companies
unless
they
are
in
financial
distress
.
{sent}
i
am
encouraged
by
the
fact
that
smaller
canadian
companies
are
going
through
merger
processes
and
amalgamations
themselves
to
build
a
stronger
base
from
which
to
work
in
the
future
.
{sent}
administration
of
justice
{sent}
prosecution
of
journalist
for
airport
activities
{sent}
hon.
bob
kaplan
(
york
centre
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
justice
.
{sent}
does
the
minister
feel
that
it
is
in
the
public
interest
for
bertrand
de
la
grange
,
a
journalist
,
to
be
prosecuted
for
showing
the
inadequacy
of
the
security
systems
at
the
airports
at
mirabel
and
dorval
?
{sent}
doesn't
the
minister
think
that
mr.
de
la
grange
should
be
given
the
order
of
canada
for
finally
getting
the
minister
of
transport
to
get
serious
about
security
?
{sent}
hon.
john
c.
crosbie
(
minister
of
justice
and
attorney
general
of
canada
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
allegation
is
that
the
person
in
question
violated
the
law
.
{sent}
for
whatever
reason
hardly
matters
,
that
would
only
go
to
the
matter
of
sentencing
.
{sent}
having
allegedly
violated
the
law
,
surely
some
action
should
be
taken
.
{sent}
request
for
stay
of
prosecution
{sent}
hon.
bob
kaplan
(
york
centre
)
:
may
i
draw
the
minister
's
attention
,
mr.
speaker
,
to
section
508
of
the
criminal
code
which
gives
him
the
authority
to
stay
prosecutions
in
proper
cases
.
{sent}
let
me
ask
the
minister
of
justice
whether
he
won't
exercise
the
power
he
has
to
stay
the
prosecution
,
especially
bearing
in
mind
that
this
investigation
was
started
by
the
rcmp
and
turned
over
afterwards
to
local
police
.
{sent}
hon.
john
c.
crosbie
(
minister
of
justice
and
attorney
general
of
canada
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
gentleman
has
some
quite
unusual
suggestions
today
.
{sent}
i
will
consider
the
order
of
canada
recommendation
first
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
trade
{sent}
potential
united
states
wheat
sale
to
syria
{sent}
mr.
rod
murphy
(
churchill
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
in
his
response
to
the
hon.
member
for
yorkton
--
melville
,
the
minister
of
finance
mentioned
that
the
government
had
not
specificially
raised
the
potential
u.s.
wheat
sale
to
syria
.
{sent}
i
ask
again
what
is
the
government
going
to
do
to
protect
the
traditional
canadian
market
for
canadian
wheat
going
to
syria
?
{sent}
canadian
position
{sent}
the
american
program
was
instigated
to
regain
traditional
american
markets
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
this
is
a
preamble
.
{sent}
just
a
question
.
{sent}
mr.
murphy
:
what
is
the
canadian
government
going
to
do
when
the
americans
are
not
regaining
their
traditional
markets
but
are
taking
our
traditional
markets
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
thought
that
the
minister
of
finance
made
clear
he
had
registered
the
disapproval
of
the
government
of
canada
with
regard
to
the
general
issue
.
{sent}
i
have
just
undertaken
to
raise
the
specific
problem
within
those
parameters
and
will
report
to
the
house
and
my
hon.
friend
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
marketing
of
alfalfa
pellets
{sent}
mr.
brian
white
(
dauphin
--
swan
river
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
agriculture
.
{sent}
can
the
minister
assure
the
farmers
involved
in
this
new
venture
that
the
application
is
being
processed
as
quickly
as
possible
?
{sent}
hon.
john
wise
(
minister
of
agriculture
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
appreciate
the
hon.
member
's
interest
and
his
continuing
representation
on
behalf
of
the
producers
in
his
province
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
the
member
can
take
some
satisfaction
from
the
fact
that
the
ongoing
meetings
between
the
particular
association
and
the
appropriate
officials
in
my
department
are
going
well
.
{sent}
there
are
four
fairly
straightforward
criteria
that
have
to
be
met
.
{sent}
the
information
i
have
should
not
create
a
problem
for
the
association
to
meet
the
criteria
,
and
hopefully
we
will
be
in
a
position
to
give
a
positive
response
in
the
very
near
future
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
increase
in
japanese
steel
imports
{sent}
mr.
maurice
foster
(
algoma
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
regional
industrial
expansion
.
{sent}
the
minister
knows
that
the
government
's
industrial
and
energy
policy
is
causing
the
lay-off
of
1,500
people
at
algoma
steel
in
sault
ste.
marie
and
threatens
to
shut
down
the
mining
operations
at
wawa
.
{sent}
when
is
the
government
going
to
protect
the
jobs
of
canadian
steelworkers
?
{sent}
hon.
james
kelleher
(
minister
for
international
trade
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
can
advise
the
hon.
member
that
the
government
is
well
aware
of
that
problem
--
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
you
are
aware
of
everything
.
{sent}
mr.
kelleher
:
--
and
we
have
taken
action
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
that
is
better
.
{sent}
mr.
kelleher
:
and
we
are
continuing
to
take
action
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
did
they
take
their
steel
back
?
{sent}
mr.
kelleher
:
when
hon.
members
are
prepared
to
listen
,
i
am
prepared
to
continue
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
we
have
been
meeting
on
a
regular
basis
with
the
chief
executive
officers
of
the
steel
industry
.
{sent}
indeed
our
last
meeting
was
two
weeks
ago
.
{sent}
we
just
received
from
them
this
past
friday
an
indication
of
the
action
they
would
like
us
to
take
.
{sent}
we
are
presently
preparing
the
necessary
recommendations
.
{sent}
i
will
be
discussing
those
with
my
colleagues
and
i
hope
action
will
be
forthcoming
very
shortly
.
{sent}
fast
track
monitoring
system
{sent}
mr.
maurice
foster
(
algoma
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
supplementary
question
for
the
minister
of
regional
industrial
expansion
.
{sent}
last
july
i
wrote
to
the
minister
and
asked
him
when
he
would
put
in
place
a
fast
track
monitoring
system
for
steel
imports
so
that
canadian
steel
producers
could
take
action
under
the
anti-dumping
provisions
of
our
law
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
foster
:
when
is
he
going
to
put
that
fast
track
system
in
place
?
{sent}
hon.
james
kelleher
(
minister
for
international
trade
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
can
advise
the
hon.
member
that
is
the
very
thing
we
are
looking
at
now
.
{sent}
we
hope
to
make
recommendations
in
that
regard
very
shortly
,
which
will
accomplish
what
the
hon.
member
is
requesting
.
{sent}
unemployment
insurance
{sent}
calculation
of
pension
as
income
--
effect
on
early
retirees
{sent}
mr.
john
r.
rodriguez
(
nickel
belt
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
the
minister
is
well
aware
of
the
great
hardship
being
created
for
early
retirees
,
particularly
ex-armed
services
personnel
,
in
light
of
the
changes
to
the
unemployment
insurance
act
.
{sent}
will
the
minister
now
accept
her
responsibility
under
that
act
and
rescind
that
iniquitous
change
in
the
unemployment
insurance
act
which
came
into
effect
in
january
,
1986
?
{sent}
as
he
also
knows
,
the
whole
issue
has
been
referred
to
the
forget
commission
to
make
recommendations
to
the
government
--
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
why
was
that
necessary
?
{sent}
mr.
fulton
:
the
forget
commission
is
not
worth
a
damn
.
{sent}
referral
to
forget
commission
{sent}
mr.
john
r.
rodriguez
(
nickel
belt
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
can
the
minister
tell
the
house
why
the
matter
was
referred
to
the
forget
commission
after
the
decision
was
made
to
make
the
change
?
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
change
was
announced
on
november
8
,
1984
,
long
before
the
forget
commission
was
set
up
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
united
states-european
common
market
discussions
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
will
canadian
ministers
be
involved
in
these
talks
,
and
will
they
be
asking
for
changes
in
the
u.s.
farm
bill
and
the
european
subsidy
program
which
are
so
damaging
to
the
canadian
agricultural
sector
?
{sent}
i
think
the
member
has
had
the
answers
from
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
in
addition
to
that
,
the
prime
minister
is
very
knowledgeable
of
the
situation
that
exists
.
{sent}
all
appropriate
means
will
be
taken
in
the
interest
of
canadian
agriculture
.
{sent}
that
has
been
the
case
with
this
government
and
will
continue
to
be
in
the
future
.
{sent}
possible
canadian
participation
{sent}
mr.
don
boudria
(
glengarry
--
prescott
--
russell
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
meeting
is
going
to
be
held
in
canada
.
{sent}
will
you
be
there
or
won't
you
?
{sent}
mr.
boudria
:
who
is
charlie
mayer
?
{sent}
unemployment
insurance
{sent}
request
for
coverage
extension
to
part-time
workers
{sent}
ms.
margaret
mitchell
(
vancouver
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
employment
.
{sent}
recent
studies
confirm
the
growing
trend
of
employers
to
replace
full-time
jobs
with
low-paying
part-time
jobs
,
and
most
of
these
part-time
jobs
are
held
by
women
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
what
has
that
to
do
with
it
?
{sent}
the
figures
not
only
show
that
a
tremendous
number
of
full-time
jobs
are
being
created
,
but
also
that
the
trend
is
improving
.
{sent}
in
1980
,
29
per
cent
of
the
jobs
were
part-time
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
order
,
order
!
{sent}
miss
macdonald
:
in
1981
,
32
per
cent
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
trust
that
the
press
gallery
also
realizes
that
the
minister
did
not
answer
the
question
.
{sent}
women
workers
{sent}
ms.
margaret
mitchell
(
vancouver
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
will
the
21
per
cent
of
workers
who
are
part-time
,
many
of
whom
are
women
,
be
covered
by
unemployment
insurance
?
{sent}
what
is
the
minister
going
to
do
about
complete
unemployment
insurance
benefits
for
part-time
workers
?
{sent}
this
is
a
tremendous
benefit
,
particularly
to
women
who
are
the
heads
of
single
parent
families
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
will
they
get
unemployment
insurance
?
{sent}
miss
macdonald
:
that
certainly
is
a
very
good
step
in
the
right
direction
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
possible
imposition
of
united
states
customs
user
fees
{sent}
has
the
minister
discussed
this
possibility
with
american
officials
?
{sent}
these
fees
could
have
a
serious
adverse
impact
on
trade
relations
between
our
nations
.
{sent}
we
have
made
the
case
that
the
implementation
of
the
fees
proposed
would
have
a
disproportionate
negative
effect
upon
canadians
.
{sent}
our
ministerial
consultations
will
continue
.
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
effect
of
budget
measures
{sent}
why
is
the
minister
still
satisfied
with
his
strategy
of
taxing
away
income
which
would
otherwise
contribute
to
economic
growth
?
{sent}
that
is
the
broad
strategy
which
we
have
followed
,
and
i
think
it
is
the
proper
strategy
to
be
following
.
{sent}
personal
tax
increases
{sent}
miss
aideen
nicholson
(
trinity
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
sales
tax
and
other
tax
increases
will
amount
to
a
27
per
cent
personal
tax
increase
over
the
next
two
years
.
{sent}
will
the
minister
assure
canadians
that
he
is
not
going
to
pile
on
further
personal
taxes
to
deal
with
the
expected
shortfall
as
a
result
of
lost
oil
revenues
?
{sent}
hon.
michael
wilson
(
minister
of
finance
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
addressed
this
question
in
the
house
before
.
{sent}
the
member
is
correct
that
there
will
be
a
reduction
in
direct
revenues
in
the
energy
industry
.
{sent}
however
,
there
is
also
an
offset
with
the
reduction
of
interest
rates
which
is
taking
place
which
will
reduce
our
interest
costs
.
{sent}
there
is
a
balance
between
these
two
items
and
i
,
therefore
,
do
not
see
that
there
is
any
reason
for
us
to
address
this
question
.
{sent}
corporate
affairs
{sent}
ownership
concentration
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
due
to
the
takeover
of
hiram
walker
by
gulf
,
canadians
will
once
again
be
watching
as
more
and
more
control
of
the
canadian
economy
falls
into
the
hands
of
seven
families
.
{sent}
does
the
minister
think
it
is
right
for
a
country
like
canada
to
have
so
much
of
its
economic
power
concentrated
in
the
hands
of
seven
families
?
{sent}
hon.
michel
côté
(
minister
of
consumer
and
corporate
affairs
and
canada
post
)
:
i
am
sorry
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
did
not
hear
the
question
.
{sent}
mr.
blaikie
:
it
was
for
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
he
was
listening
.
{sent}
why
doesn't
he
answer
?
{sent}
hon.
michael
wilson
(
minister
of
finance
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
colleague
was
obviously
having
a
private
conversation
with
his
seatmate
.
{sent}
the
specific
question
put
to
me
by
the
hon.
member
is
not
within
my
realm
of
responsibility
.
{sent}
i
think
the
hon.
member
realizes
that
.
{sent}
effect
of
ownership
concentration
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
auto
pact
inquiry
{sent}
hon.
herb
gray
(
windsor
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
state
for
international
trade
.
{sent}
hon.
james
kelleher
(
minister
for
international
trade
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
as
the
hon.
member
well
knows
,
in
order
to
prepare
for
these
discussions
we
have
commissioned
a
number
of
reports
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
we
made
public
the
fact
that
the
report
has
been
obtained
.
{sent}
it
contains
the
opinion
of
the
writer
.
{sent}
the
government
has
not
acted
on
that
report
.
{sent}
when
our
negotiating
position
has
been
confirmed
,
we
will
act
in
a
manner
which
is
consistent
with
,
and
in
the
best
interests
of
,
all
canadians
.
{sent}
statement
attributed
to
united
states
negotiator
{sent}
why
will
the
minister
not
say
clearly
and
unequivocally
today
that
he
does
preclude
such
alterations
,
and
that
the
auto
pact
will
not
be
on
the
table
in
any
comprehensive
trade
negotiations
with
the
united
states
?
{sent}
does
he
not
realize
that
by
his
equivocation
and
silence
he
is
telling
the
country
he
intends
that
the
pact
be
on
the
table
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
order
,
please
!
{sent}
hon.
james
kelleher
(
minister
for
international
trade
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
has
a
selective
memory
.
{sent}
people
should
remember
that
.
{sent}
i
replied
at
the
time
that
the
auto
pact
was
indeed
working
very
well
for
both
countries
.
{sent}
if
something
is
working
well
,
you
do
not
try
to
fix
it
.
{sent}
corporate
affairs
{sent}
sale
of
hiram
walker
to
olympia
&
york
--
request
for
clarification
{sent}
mr.
w.
paul
mccrossan
(
york-scarborough
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
consumer
and
corporate
affairs
.
{sent}
two
days
from
now
,
it
seems
olympia
&
york
will
buy
hiram
walker
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
question
is
too
long
.
{sent}
that
is
what
he
intends
to
do
,
and
if
he
has
any
reason
to
believe
that
the
law
has
been
infringed
,
he
will
of
course
start
an
investigation
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
points
of
order
{sent}
imasco
status
--
statement
by
minister
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
minister
of
state
for
finance
(
mrs.
mcdougall
)
gave
me
notice
that
she
wished
to
raise
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
hon.
barbara
mcdougall
(
minister
of
state
(
finance
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
on
friday
,
april
18
,
in
response
to
a
question
from
the
member
for
essex
--
windsor
(
mr.
langdon
)
,
i
may
have
unintentionally
mislead
the
house
.
{sent}
i
thank
him
for
bringing
it
to
my
attention
privately
.
{sent}
at
that
time
i
stated
that
imasco
was
classified
as
a
canadian
company
under
fira
and
investment
canada
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
say
for
the
record
that
imasco
is
deemed
to
have
canadian
status
under
investment
canada
but
no
similar
status
had
been
granted
by
fira
.
{sent}
request
for
government
response
to
report
of
standing
committee
--
speaker
's
ruling
{sent}
the
chair
has
had
the
opportunity
to
review
the
responses
of
the
minister
which
were
filed
with
the
clerk
of
the
house
on
march
7
,
1986
and
april
18
,
1986
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
spadina
is
certainly
entitled
to
disagree
with
the
responses
,
if
that
is
his
view
,
and
he
has
other
options
and
procedures
available
to
him
if
he
chooses
.
{sent}
as
far
as
the
chair
is
concerned
,
the
terms
of
standing
order
99(2)
have
been
met
in
this
case
and
the
chair
ought
not
to
intervene
,
except
on
the
strictest
procedural
grounds
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
question
is
as
follows
--
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
chair
is
now
in
some
difficulty
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
there
was
a
lot
of
noise
and
i
thought
the
hon.
member
for
hamilton
east
(
ms.
copps
)
still
had
the
floor
.
{sent}
i
know
there
were
other
people
who
wanted
to
speak
on
this
amendment
,
and
if
they
won't
,
i
will
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
think
the
house
knows
that
the
chair
is
always
in
difficulty
right
after
question
period
because
there
is
a
lot
of
noise
.
{sent}
this
would
be
a
good
time
to
remind
the
house
that
the
whole
procedure
would
be
simplified
if
the
house
came
to
order
as
quickly
as
possible
after
question
period
.
{sent}
under
the
circumstances
,
i
will
recognize
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
on
debate
.
{sent}
hon.
warren
allmand
(
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
surprised
to
have
the
floor
again
so
quickly
but
i
will
be
glad
to
speak
.
{sent}
while
most
clauses
of
the
bill
are
important
,
those
three
are
the
key
to
the
enforcement
of
affirmative
action
and
employment
equity
.
{sent}
furthermore
,
among
those
three
clauses
i
suggest
that
clause
7
is
the
most
important
.
{sent}
as
it
now
stands
,
clause
7
provides
for
a
penalty
of
$
50,000
to
employers
who
fail
to
report
pursuant
to
clause
6
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
that
,
in
effect
,
amounts
to
no
penalty
whatsoever
for
those
who
do
not
make
progress
on
the
implementation
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
am
trying
to
hear
the
hon.
member
's
speech
.
{sent}
thank
you
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
clause
7
of
the
bill
applies
a
penalty
only
to
those
who
fail
to
report
to
the
minister
.
{sent}
they
are
simply
required
to
report
on
the
composition
of
their
labour
force
with
respect
to
the
designated
groups
.
{sent}
that
clause
does
not
apply
any
penalty
to
those
who
do
not
comply
with
clause
4
or
clause
5
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
those
two
clauses
are
of
more
importance
to
the
advancement
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
clause
4
is
an
integral
part
of
the
bill
because
it
requires
employers
to
implement
employment
equity
through
several
proposed
means
.
{sent}
while
it
obliges
employers
to
do
something
about
employment
equity
,
it
provides
for
no
penalty
if
no
action
is
taken
.
{sent}
clause
5
was
included
in
the
bill
since
the
committee
stage
.
{sent}
it
requires
employers
to
prepare
action
plans
with
goals
and
timetables
for
employment
equity
.
{sent}
however
,
if
action
plans
are
not
prepared
as
required
by
clause
5
,
there
is
no
penalty
.
{sent}
one
continues
to
hope
that
such
steps
will
be
taken
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
also
moved
that
the
bill
be
returned
to
committee
for
reconsideration
of
clause
3
and
clause
5
.
{sent}
clause
3
is
a
definition
section
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
it
defines
an
employer
as
one
who
has
100
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
we
have
argued
time
and
again
that
that
floor
level
of
100
employees
is
too
high
because
it
excludes
many
federally
regulated
canadian
firms
with
less
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
i
pointed
out
this
morning
that
affirmative
action
legislation
in
the
united
states
includes
all
firms
with
15
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
i
tried
to
amend
this
bill
in
committee
so
as
to
reduce
the
level
of
100
employees
to
25
employees
,
thereby
not
even
going
as
far
as
the
american
legislation
.
{sent}
witnesses
before
the
committee
suggested
that
25
employees
was
a
reasonable
number
on
which
to
make
a
judgment
on
affirmative
action
or
employment
equity
.
{sent}
however
,
the
government
and
the
parliamentary
secretary
would
not
listen
to
any
arguments
and
insisted
on
keeping
the
level
at
100
employees
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
that
stipulation
is
not
even
consistent
with
our
canadian
labour
legislation
because
the
canada
labour
code
defines
an
employer
as
one
with
five
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
we
believe
it
is
unacceptable
that
the
definition
would
suddenly
jump
to
100
employees
according
to
this
bill
.
{sent}
if
the
bill
is
sent
back
to
committee
,
we
hope
that
witnesses
representing
the
target
groups
and
others
will
convince
the
government
that
100
is
too
high
.
{sent}
again
,
we
have
argued
that
treasury
board
guidelines
are
not
enough
.
{sent}
if
we
are
to
have
legislation
covering
the
business
sector
with
respect
to
affirmative
action
employment
equity
,
then
we
should
at
least
have
that
same
legislation
cover
federal
government
employees
.
{sent}
i
suppose
on
that
occasion
they
were
intently
listening
and
saw
the
good
sense
in
the
arguments
that
were
put
forward
.
{sent}
they
accepted
an
amendment
to
require
employers
to
prepare
action
plans
with
goals
and
targets
for
employment
equity
.
{sent}
they
all
said
this
legislation
was
unacceptable
unless
there
were
some
substantial
amendments
made
to
it
.
{sent}
those
amendments
have
not
been
made
.
{sent}
the
legislation
is
still
more
rhetoric
than
action
oriented
.
{sent}
it
will
not
effectively
put
into
place
mandatory
employment
equity
programs
.
{sent}
it
will
not
do
the
job
.
{sent}
every
independent
group
that
has
looked
at
it
says
the
same
thing
.
{sent}
the
minister
this
morning
said
that
what
she
wanted
was
action
and
that
this
legislation
represented
action
.
{sent}
nobody
believes
her
when
she
says
that
.
{sent}
it
does
not
do
that
.
{sent}
it
requires
further
amendment
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
are
there
any
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
mr.
mccurdy
:
may
i
ask
the
previous
speaker
,
in
consideration
of
the
amendment
that
was
introduced
by
the
member
for
vancouver
east
(
mrs.
mitchell
)
,
to
indicate
why
clause
4
is
excluded
from
the
amendment
for
reference
to
committee
.
{sent}
surely
it
is
clear
that
both
clauses
4
and
5
together
constitute
the
action
plan
,
because
one
consists
of
the
process
,
that
is
clause
4
,
and
clause
5
describes
the
definition
of
goals
that
are
necessary
in
order
for
the
process
to
be
successful
.
{sent}
let
me
repeat
the
question
.
{sent}
may
we
have
an
explanation
of
why
clause
4
was
not
included
in
the
reference
?
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
the
hon.
member
at
the
end
of
his
remarks
meant
to
ask
why
clause
4
is
not
included
in
the
reference
.
{sent}
he
makes
a
good
point
.
{sent}
i
would
have
no
objection
to
including
clause
4
,
as
it
is
also
an
important
clause
.
{sent}
i
wanted
to
concentrate
attention
on
several
issues
at
this
time
.
{sent}
i
agree
with
the
hon.
member
that
clause
4
is
a
key
clause
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
it
would
be
the
guts
of
the
bill
if
there
was
a
penalty
that
applied
if
you
did
not
do
what
is
covered
in
clause
4
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
is
correct
in
what
he
said
.
{sent}
he
makes
good
sense
.
{sent}
we
picked
out
three
clauses
at
this
time
to
refer
back
to
the
committee
,
but
one
could
pick
others
as
well
,
in
particular
,
clause
4
.
{sent}
does
he
believe
that
the
record
of
the
federal
government
so
far
justifies
omitting
them
from
the
legislation
on
the
basis
that
they
will
continue
,
if
they
ever
had
done
so
,
to
implement
affirmaive
action
within
the
public
service
?
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
one
of
the
reasons
that
the
member
for
hamilton
east
included
clause
3
in
the
amendment
to
refer
the
bill
back
to
committee
was
that
clause
3
deals
with
definitions
including
who
or
what
is
an
employer
.
{sent}
since
that
clause
now
exempts
federal
public
servants
we
would
like
to
see
it
amended
to
include
them
,
not
exempt
them
.
{sent}
we
tried
to
put
through
an
amendment
in
committee
to
do
that
.
{sent}
we
tried
to
put
through
an
amendment
in
this
house
at
report
stage
.
{sent}
on
both
occasions
members
of
the
government
voted
down
those
amendments
so
that
the
bill
still
exempts
federal
public
servants
.
{sent}
we
started
a
few
years
ago
on
employment
equity
with
guidelines
or
directives
under
the
treasury
board
.
{sent}
that
was
a
good
start
,
but
it
was
before
we
had
entrenched
provisions
in
the
constitution
with
respect
to
equality
rights
and
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
it
was
before
the
abella
report
which
says
we
should
have
legislation
for
both
the
public
sector
and
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
now
is
the
time
for
legislation
and
it
should
apply
to
the
public
sector
as
well
as
to
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
very
happy
to
hear
the
comments
by
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grace
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
.
{sent}
i
listened
with
interest
this
morning
to
the
minister
as
she
told
us
what
the
process
of
reporting
would
be
.
{sent}
of
course
,
that
kind
of
employment
equity
will
be
assured
and
promoted
by
the
company
in
question
.
{sent}
i
want
to
ask
the
hon.
member
about
the
reference
made
this
morning
by
the
minister
to
the
census
.
{sent}
in
his
opinion
,
is
that
sufficient
to
justify
the
government
calling
this
bill
the
``
employment
equity
''
bill
?
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
bill
is
a
smoke
and
mirrors
bill
for
many
reasons
,
not
just
the
reason
suggested
by
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa-vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
.
{sent}
if
the
minister
thinks
that
she
will
be
able
to
do
something
about
employment
equity
on
the
basis
of
the
census
which
is
done
every
10
years
,
she
will
not
be
able
to
do
very
much
.
{sent}
on
that
basis
,
it
is
my
hope
that
the
information
requested
under
clause
6
will
be
of
more
help
and
will
supplement
information
gathered
by
the
census
.
{sent}
clause
6
states
:
{sent}
on
or
before
june
1
,
1988
and
on
or
before
june
1
of
each
year
thereafter
,
every
employer
shall
file
with
the
minister
a
report
in
respect
of
--
{sent}
and
then
it
reers
to
the
subclauses
(
a
)
,
(
b
)
,
(
c
)
and
(
d
)
under
which
information
is
requested
from
the
employers
.
{sent}
if
the
employers
do
not
comply
with
clause
4
and
clause
5
,
nothing
happens
to
them
.
{sent}
on
the
other
hand
,
if
they
do
not
send
in
their
reports
under
clause
6
they
are
subject
to
a
penalty
,
but
that
does
not
do
anything
but
provide
information
to
the
public
.
{sent}
however
,
judge
abella
pointed
out
very
clearly
that
voluntary
affirmative
action
does
not
work
,
nor
does
voluntary
employment
equity
.
{sent}
we
need
a
bill
with
teeth
.
{sent}
we
need
legislation
with
sanctions
for
those
who
do
not
go
ahead
with
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
period
for
questions
or
comments
has
now
terminated
.
{sent}
debate
.
{sent}
there
has
already
been
an
amendment
which
would
have
made
the
bill
somewhat
more
honest
,
but
it
was
defeated
.
{sent}
it
would
have
described
the
legislation
as
one
which
has
as
its
purpose
the
promotion
of
equality
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
why
it
is
necessary
in
the
waning
hours
of
the
debate
for
the
minister
to
insist
that
the
bill
does
what
it
makes
no
attempt
to
do
,
and
that
it
will
bring
forth
results
.
{sent}
it
might
just
as
well
have
been
written
in
invisible
ink
or
in
the
sand
for
all
the
good
it
will
do
in
response
to
the
needs
of
the
people
this
legislation
is
suppose
to
serve
.
{sent}
i
speculated
previously
as
to
whether
this
bill
is
a
result
of
stupidity
or
trickery
.
{sent}
the
purpose
of
the
amendment
under
debate
is
to
refer
the
bill
back
to
committee
for
a
specific
examination
of
clauses
3
,
5
and
7
.
{sent}
clause
7
of
the
bill
requires
only
that
the
government
count
the
minorities
,
and
count
them
twice
,
to
find
out
which
corporations
are
naughty
or
nice
.
{sent}
that
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
what
we
would
ask
is
that
clause
7
be
made
to
apply
not
only
to
clause
6
,
but
to
clauses
4
and
5
as
well
,
and
that
the
penalty
apply
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
that
it
be
mandatory
and
there
be
a
penalty
for
failure
to
report
on
the
demands
set
out
in
clauses
4
,
5
and
6
.
{sent}
let
us
examine
those
clauses
.
{sent}
clause
4
requires
that
an
employer
shall
,
in
consultation
with
employee
representatives
,
develop
a
process
for
correcting
employment
inequities
.
{sent}
there
are
two
interesting
things
about
clause
4
.
{sent}
the
first
is
that
there
is
no
reference
in
it
to
any
requirement
in
any
context
for
consultation
with
members
of
the
designated
groups
who
,
obviously
,
have
a
significant
interest
in
the
processes
which
are
to
be
used
.
{sent}
their
interest
is
not
only
with
respect
to
correcting
imbalances
in
the
distribution
of
minority
employee
groups
within
the
corporation
or
company
,
but
also
with
respect
to
hiring
patterns
.
{sent}
no
one
is
required
to
know
anything
about
it
--
not
the
designated
groups
,
not
those
who
were
consulted
and
not
those
who
are
responsible
for
hiring
and
promotion
practices
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
what
is
thought
will
come
from
clause
4
if
a
process
is
developed
and
no
one
knows
anything
about
it
.
{sent}
matters
become
worse
if
one
looks
to
clause
5
.
{sent}
it
is
reasonable
that
there
should
be
goals
and
timetables
.
{sent}
this
has
been
repeated
over
and
over
again
.
{sent}
i
have
already
alluded
to
the
peculiar
nature
of
the
bill
in
respect
to
the
separation
of
the
process
from
the
goal
.
{sent}
be
that
as
it
may
,
we
have
here
a
provision
which
,
for
all
intents
and
purposes
,
ensures
that
the
goals
and
timetables
to
which
the
processes
are
supposed
to
be
directed
will
themselves
be
kept
secret
.
{sent}
they
will
be
kept
from
those
who
have
the
greatest
concern
about
them
.
{sent}
surely
,
clause
7
should
apply
to
clauses
4
and
5
if
we
are
to
have
a
piece
of
legislation
which
can
be
truly
described
as
an
employment
equity
bill
.
{sent}
let
us
now
look
at
clause
3
.
{sent}
clause
3
is
at
the
beginning
of
the
bill
and
shows
where
the
government
began
to
run
into
difficulty
.
{sent}
first
,
there
is
the
fact
that
this
legislation
will
apply
only
to
employers
who
employ
more
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
others
have
already
spoken
in
strong
affirmation
of
the
necessity
to
lower
this
number
.
{sent}
they
have
referred
to
the
pattern
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
there
may
be
disagreement
about
what
specific
number
should
be
chosen
.
{sent}
however
,
it
should
be
clear
that
in
choosing
the
number
100
there
is
a
deliberate
effort
to
exclude
the
vast
majority
of
employers
who
have
any
prospect
of
hiring
significant
numbers
of
employees
these
days
.
{sent}
perhaps
the
most
unacceptable
omission
from
clause
3
is
the
omission
with
respect
to
the
federal
public
service
.
{sent}
others
have
spoken
about
the
discrimination
involved
in
which
this
employer
is
excluded
from
the
legislation
because
,
of
course
,
it
has
the
power
to
exclude
itsself
from
it
.
{sent}
at
the
same
time
it
demands
that
other
employers
adhere
to
the
requirement
of
the
legislation
,
however
inadequate
those
provisions
may
be
.
{sent}
if
one
believes
that
the
federal
public
service
has
become
nirvana
for
visible
minorities
,
women
,
native
people
and
the
disabled
,
then
one
should
consider
the
record
.
{sent}
we
have
heard
about
the
fact
that
however
few
disabled
are
employed
by
the
federal
government
,
some
75
per
cent
of
them
are
on
contract
and
can
be
dismissed
with
ease
.
{sent}
we
are
very
familiar
with
the
sorry
record
of
the
federal
government
with
respect
to
the
employment
of
native
people
,
except
under
circumstances
in
which
the
demands
are
clear
and
unequivocal
.
{sent}
however
,
we
have
not
heard
a
great
deal
about
the
federal
government
's
record
with
respect
to
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
i
would
remind
hon.
members
that
until
a
few
years
ago
visible
minorities
were
not
even
mentioned
by
the
federal
government
in
any
context
with
respect
to
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
the
government
is
cutting
back
on
the
civil
service
.
{sent}
it
is
retrenching
and
getting
rid
of
its
employees
.
{sent}
what
is
going
on
?
{sent}
the
record
of
the
federal
public
service
with
respect
to
the
visible
minorities
is
well
documented
in
correspondence
to
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
from
the
caucus
for
the
recognition
and
improvement
of
blacks
.
{sent}
this
is
a
group
of
federal
civil
servants
whose
members
are
from
the
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
even
then
the
situation
with
respect
to
visible
minorities
was
somehow
ignored
.
{sent}
somehow
they
were
forgotten
.
{sent}
however
,
there
are
ways
in
which
they
are
not
being
forgotten
,
as
is
documented
by
the
caucus
for
the
recognition
and
improvement
of
blacks
.
{sent}
they
are
now
being
laid
off
in
far
greater
numbers
and
proportion
than
other
employees
of
the
public
service
.
{sent}
we
now
have
a
trend
which
has
been
noticed
in
the
latest
exercise
where
people
have
been
suddenly
dropped
in
the
ratings
.
{sent}
this
is
being
disproportionately
applied
to
members
of
the
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
the
author
of
this
correspondence
states
:
{sent}
i
have
in
my
hand
page
after
page
of
documentation
which
sets
out
complaints
about
the
record
of
the
federal
government
with
respect
to
the
treatment
of
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
and
yet
the
government
would
exclude
the
federal
public
service
from
this
legislation
.
{sent}
this
bill
should
go
back
to
committee
so
that
it
can
be
made
into
a
bill
rather
than
a
bill
of
goods
.
{sent}
this
bill
should
go
back
to
committee
so
that
it
will
provide
for
mandatory
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
let
us
stop
playing
this
game
in
which
the
minister
smirks
,
because
it
is
a
smirk
that
can
be
misunderstood
.
{sent}
one
may
think
the
minister
is
smirking
in
pride
over
what
has
been
accomplished
through
this
legislation
,
but
the
contrary
is
true
.
{sent}
that
smirk
indicates
the
feeling
any
salesman
has
when
he
sells
a
bill
of
goods
to
someone
who
does
not
know
what
he
is
getting
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
since
there
are
no
questions
or
comments
,
we
shall
resume
debate
.
{sent}
hon.
lloyd
axworthy
(
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
could
have
been
an
historic
day
for
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
it
could
have
been
a
day
on
which
we
would
finally
deal
with
a
major
piece
of
legislation
dealing
with
the
problems
of
equality
for
all
those
who
have
suffered
disadvantage
and
discrimination
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
not
.
{sent}
it
is
a
side-track
,
a
slip-stream
and
an
evasion
of
responsibility
.
{sent}
i
do
not
use
those
words
lightly
.
{sent}
like
many
members
of
parliament
,
i
have
seen
over
the
years
a
series
of
efforts
designed
to
make
progress
in
the
workplace
of
canada
,
the
fundamental
basis
for
economic
and
social
equality
.
{sent}
the
opportunity
for
an
equal
chance
in
the
market-place
is
the
fundamental
premise
of
any
efforts
to
achieve
a
broader
system
of
equity
and
fairness
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
this
bill
speaks
of
a
broad
pattern
of
retreat
on
the
part
of
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
(
miss
macdonald
)
.
{sent}
she
spoke
of
what
she
and
her
colleagues
would
do
if
and
when
they
formed
a
government
.
{sent}
well
,
they
have
formed
a
government
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
the
record
of
the
government
over
the
past
two
years
.
{sent}
we
are
all
aware
of
the
incredibly
harsh
and
severe
decision
that
was
made
regarding
unemployment
insurance
benefits
as
they
affect
pension
privileges
.
{sent}
we
are
aware
of
the
distortion
that
this
has
caused
in
the
market-place
.
{sent}
it
is
offsetting
any
opportunities
for
early
retirement
.
{sent}
we
have
seen
what
happened
with
the
so-called
jobs
strategy
.
{sent}
all
of
the
special
programs
designed
to
help
women
receive
training
opportunities
and
to
help
the
handicapped
receive
special
access
to
the
workplace
have
now
been
eliminated
and
cancelled
.
{sent}
under
the
summer
jobs
program
and
the
canada
works
program
,
it
used
to
be
a
requirement
that
every
person
proposing
a
project
table
an
affirmative
action
plan
.
{sent}
those
requirements
have
all
been
wiped
away
.
{sent}
perhaps
the
greatest
retreat
we
have
seen
is
on
the
question
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
that
is
mainly
because
the
minister
has
broken
the
momentum
.
{sent}
even
earlier
than
1980
,
the
bird
commission
first
identified
these
problems
.
{sent}
it
was
part
of
a
whole
set
of
precedents
,
an
evolutionary
process
that
allowed
over
the
years
certain
practices
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
foremen
would
hire
their
nephews
and
not
their
nieces
,
there
was
apprehension
at
seeing
someone
in
a
wheelchair
.
{sent}
there
was
no
recognition
of
the
need
for
remedial
training
for
those
with
certain
cultural
backgrounds
.
{sent}
by
the
end
of
the
1970s
and
the
early
1980s
,
those
things
were
recognized
.
{sent}
the
question
was
what
to
do
about
them
.
{sent}
i
can
recall
very
vividly
taking
over
a
department
in
which
there
was
a
voluntary
affirmative
action
program
.
{sent}
we
were
providing
resources
and
assistance
to
the
private
sector
to
work
out
affirmative
action
plans
.
{sent}
it
became
quite
clear
that
that
did
not
work
.
{sent}
at
one
point
in
1980
,
only
35
or
40
contracts
were
signed
.
{sent}
we
had
to
ask
ourselves
why
this
was
so
.
{sent}
at
the
time
,
i
met
with
a
number
of
private-sector
organizations
and
asked
what
it
was
that
prevented
them
from
carrying
on
with
voluntary
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
they
recognized
the
problem
but
i
wondered
what
it
was
that
was
stopping
them
from
doing
anything
about
it
.
{sent}
it
came
down
to
a
fundamentally
human
problem
.
{sent}
they
said
that
they
did
not
practise
affirmative
action
because
it
was
too
costly
,
and
unless
their
competitors
were
also
required
to
practise
it
,
they
would
be
at
a
disadvantage
.
{sent}
many
employers
told
me
that
even
though
they
would
like
to
do
it
and
were
prepared
to
do
it
,
unless
they
were
required
to
do
it
they
would
not
do
it
.
{sent}
this
goes
back
to
some
pretty
basic
matters
of
political
philosophy
.
{sent}
it
is
not
their
responsibility
.
{sent}
the
answer
came
to
us
and
it
was
very
clear
.
{sent}
the
only
way
the
system
would
work
is
if
all
employers
were
required
to
begin
following
affirmative
action
plans
.
{sent}
the
private
sector
asked
how
this
should
be
done
.
{sent}
businessmen
wondered
what
would
be
the
best
way
of
applying
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
they
said
very
clearly
that
the
federal
government
must
take
the
lead
by
showing
them
the
best
system
.
{sent}
we
began
to
do
it
.
{sent}
in
1980
,
we
introduced
a
trial
program
in
three
departments
of
the
federal
public
service
.
{sent}
we
tested
out
a
complete
and
comprehensive
affirmative
action
requirement
on
three
key
departments
.
{sent}
once
we
began
to
see
the
success
of
that
program
,
we
then
issused
an
order
in
council
which
required
that
it
be
undertaken
in
the
entire
public
service
of
canada
.
{sent}
those
steps
were
an
important
prelude
to
what
i
think
was
the
next
most
important
step
taken
,
and
that
was
the
establishment
of
the
abella
commission
.
{sent}
the
terms
of
reference
of
the
abella
commission
were
crucial
.
{sent}
it
was
not
just
another
study
or
inquiry
.
{sent}
the
mandate
of
the
abella
commission
was
that
it
was
to
come
up
with
a
working
formula
that
would
apply
to
all
activities
under
federal
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
i
consider
that
to
be
one
of
the
most
important
decisions
made
by
the
cabinet
while
i
was
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
.
{sent}
momentum
had
been
created
step
by
step
.
{sent}
private
employers
could
no
longer
use
the
excuse
that
affirmative
action
did
not
work
,
because
we
showed
that
it
could
work
in
the
public
service
.
{sent}
they
asked
us
for
an
example
,
and
we
gave
it
to
them
.
{sent}
then
we
took
the
next
major
step
by
appointing
the
abella
commission
and
we
asked
judge
abella
to
talk
to
those
in
the
corporate
sector
and
return
to
us
with
a
working
formula
.
{sent}
that
was
the
clear
logic
and
compelling
message
of
judge
abella
.
{sent}
the
government
which
assumed
office
in
1984
had
that
momentum
upon
which
to
build
.
{sent}
it
had
the
series
of
successive
steps
which
had
been
taken
.
{sent}
in
response
to
a
question
by
my
colleague
from
toronto
,
she
said
that
the
previous
government
had
done
nothing
at
all
.
{sent}
she
should
have
indicated
that
very
important
steps
have
been
taken
.
{sent}
this
bill
could
have
been
a
capstone
to
pull
together
all
those
elements
.
{sent}
instead
,
it
is
a
retreat
,
a
withdrawal
,
or
a
side-step
.
{sent}
she
is
directly
responsible
for
having
broken
the
momentum
.
{sent}
when
will
we
get
a
chance
again
?
{sent}
some
people
will
say
that
the
legislation
is
now
in
place
,
but
i
believe
that
the
forward
movement
or
the
sense
of
forward
progress
has
been
rechannelled
.
{sent}
we
are
really
reverting
back
to
what
we
had
in
the
1970s
and
1980s
.
{sent}
in
effect
,
it
is
voluntary
and
up
to
the
good
intentions
of
individual
employers
to
make
it
work
.
{sent}
how
can
they
revert
to
something
that
has
already
been
proven
not
to
work
?
{sent}
why
do
they
ignore
history
?
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
they
make
the
same
mistakes
as
the
liberals
.
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
that
indicates
the
stupidity
of
the
ndp
on
matters
such
as
this
one
;
we
both
believe
in
the
same
thing
and
yet
they
make
silly
remarks
.
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
why
only
three
departments
?
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
i
just
explained
that
.
{sent}
it
is
too
bad
the
hon.
member
does
not
listen
;
it
is
unfortunate
that
she
does
not
listen
.
{sent}
i
am
making
a
speech
in
the
house
because
i
believe
deeply
in
what
we
are
trying
to
accomplish
.
{sent}
we
were
making
progress
.
{sent}
we
knew
what
we
had
to
face
.
{sent}
there
was
strong
opposition
in
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
we
had
to
show
that
they
could
work
.
{sent}
we
had
to
give
the
private
sector
a
demonstration
,
and
we
have
succeeded
in
doing
that
.
{sent}
we
had
to
build
up
a
consensus
and
show
that
progress
was
being
made
.
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
and
back
away
from
mandatory
.
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
i
realize
that
members
of
the
ndp
and
the
conservative
party
do
not
believe
in
developing
that
kind
of
practical
common
sense
.
{sent}
i
point
out
to
the
hon.
member
that
some
of
her
colleagues
in
the
provinces
have
been
less
than
progressive
.
{sent}
guess
who
opposed
it
at
that
time
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
not
the
ndp
.
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
members
of
the
provincial
government
which
she
supports
,
because
they
were
not
interested
in
making
that
kind
of
progress
.
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
not
the
ndp
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
there
will
be
time
for
questions
and
comments
after
the
hon.
member
finishes
his
speech
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
hear
what
he
has
to
say
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
(
mr.
axworthy
)
has
the
floor
.
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
appreciate
your
willingness
to
listen
to
this
important
debate
.
{sent}
i
am
glad
someone
is
prepared
to
listen
.
{sent}
certain
members
of
the
ndp
have
forgotten
long
ago
how
important
listening
is
.
{sent}
at
this
point
in
time
there
is
a
willingness
in
the
country
to
accept
a
change
.
{sent}
i
believe
the
business
community
has
been
sufficiently
softened
up
.
{sent}
mr.
kilgour
:
tell
us
about
it
.
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
i
will
tell
the
hon.
member
about
it
.
{sent}
i
have
spent
a
lot
of
time
working
with
that
community
on
it
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
edmonton
--
strathcona
(
mr.
kilgour
)
is
allowing
the
editorials
in
the
edmonton
journal
to
go
to
his
head
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
that
we
had
acquired
and
obtained
a
recognition
or
an
agreement
on
what
choices
and
decisions
should
be
made
.
{sent}
when
the
bill
was
ready
to
be
brought
forward
,
a
consensus
was
in
place
.
{sent}
however
,
the
government
stepped
away
from
that
consensus
and
fragmented
that
agreement
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
return
to
the
debate
of
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
on
second
reading
.
{sent}
she
said
that
it
was
just
a
start
and
that
we
should
come
to
committee
with
amendments
.
{sent}
she
said
that
she
was
open
,
prepared
to
make
changes
,
and
wanted
to
listen
to
the
groups
.
{sent}
we
have
heard
what
the
groups
indicated
before
the
committee
.
{sent}
they
repeated
what
was
indicated
by
the
abella
commission
,
that
we
required
a
comprehensive
,
univerally
applied
program
at
least
within
the
federal
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
however
,
that
was
ignored
.
{sent}
therefore
,
any
pretext
that
this
will
somehow
further
eliminate
or
reduce
systemic
discrimination
in
the
country
is
a
falsehood
.
{sent}
it
will
not
work
.
{sent}
aside
from
the
individual
cases
of
frustration
and
sense
of
alienation
which
many
people
in
the
workplace
now
feel
,
we
will
also
lose
an
incredible
amount
of
talent
.
{sent}
we
will
be
losing
the
abilities
which
people
could
have
put
in
place
had
they
been
given
the
opportunities
that
a
real
affirmative
action
program
would
have
provided
.
{sent}
the
talents
and
abilities
which
they
could
bring
in
terms
of
new
jobs
and
occupations
will
be
lost
.
{sent}
as
was
the
case
in
the
past
,
they
will
be
pushed
to
the
margin
.
{sent}
we
will
lose
those
talents
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
we
are
guilty
of
considering
today
at
final
reading
stage
a
bill
which
does
nothing
to
open
the
door
to
the
full
talents
and
abilities
of
canadians
.
{sent}
we
are
still
saying
to
over
a
third
of
canadians
that
we
really
do
not
need
them
or
want
them
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
if
we
want
them
,
it
is
only
in
a
marginal
way
.
{sent}
the
real
message
in
the
bill
is
that
we
will
maintain
a
closed
system
and
only
allow
them
into
the
cracks
and
crevices
,
not
into
the
mainstream
.
{sent}
that
is
the
problem
in
relation
to
the
bill
on
employment
equity
.
{sent}
we
need
those
people
and
their
talents
and
abilities
.
{sent}
we
also
need
to
ensure
that
we
have
a
piece
of
legislation
which
keeps
open
the
door
and
provides
the
incentive
and
support
to
make
it
happen
.
{sent}
instead
,
we
are
reverting
,
retreating
or
withdrawing
back
to
a
previous
age
and
a
previous
set
of
concepts
and
notions
.
{sent}
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
will
tackle
the
problems
one
on
one
.
{sent}
some
companies
will
put
information
in
front
of
everybody
,
and
many
will
say
that
we
must
rely
upon
the
court
of
public
opinion
,
which
has
a
fat
chance
of
working
.
{sent}
i
can
only
rise
and
say
that
this
debate
has
been
an
incredibly
frustrating
and
disappointing
process
.
{sent}
i
only
hope
that
a
lesson
has
been
learned
,
and
that
lesson
is
that
if
we
are
to
do
a
job
,
let
us
do
it
properly
and
effectively
.
{sent}
mr.
mccurdy
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
rather
surprised
to
hear
the
member
for
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
(
mr.
axworthy
)
indicate
that
new
democrats
and
liberals
believe
the
same
thing
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
that
is
true
from
odd
week
to
odd
week
.
{sent}
there
are
few
in
the
house
who
would
not
recognize
that
in
general
with
respect
to
women
,
the
disabled
and
native
people
,
such
a
momentum
was
developed
.
{sent}
with
the
exception
of
nova
scotia
,
no
such
program
was
implemented
.
{sent}
there
was
a
consistent
denial
of
the
concerns
and
needs
of
visible
minority
groups
with
respect
to
employment
in
the
federal
public
service
.
{sent}
certainly
they
were
not
given
the
kind
of
attention
that
was
needed
in
fostering
employment
equity
.
{sent}
it
was
directed
toward
women
and
others
among
the
designated
groups
.
{sent}
perhaps
he
can
explain
and
accord
us
some
understanding
of
that
policy
and
why
that
was
the
case
.
{sent}
why
were
the
visible
minorities
excluded
from
a
deliberate
program
of
affirmative
action
in
the
public
service
by
the
previous
government
?
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
mr.
speaker
,
that
is
a
fair
question
.
{sent}
because
of
the
merit
system
principle
that
was
put
in
the
legislation
,
the
question
of
visible
minority
status
was
not
recorded
.
{sent}
matters
of
sex
,
male
and
female
,
were
,
but
it
was
not
a
requirement
when
someone
made
application
or
that
they
be
designated
on
their
file
as
a
``
visible
minority
''
.
{sent}
that
was
the
rationale
at
the
time
.
{sent}
it
seemed
to
me
after
looking
at
the
rationale
for
a
period
of
about
18
months
or
two
years
that
it
was
not
acceptable
.
{sent}
i
would
remind
the
hon.
member
that
when
we
established
the
abella
commission
,
visible
minorities
were
part
of
the
terms
of
reference
.
{sent}
it
was
the
first
major
recognition
of
the
importance
of
affirmative
action
for
that
group
.
{sent}
i
can
recall
having
discussions
with
a
gentleman
,
whom
the
hon.
member
probably
knows
,
tom
sosa
,
who
at
that
time
was
chairperson
of
the
advisory
committee
for
the
department
of
employment
and
immigration
.
{sent}
he
made
recommendations
to
me
about
the
establishment
of
this
commission
,
which
clearly
emphasized
the
importance
of
having
visible
minorities
as
part
of
it
,
and
they
were
included
in
the
terms
of
reference
of
the
abella
commission
.
{sent}
the
abella
commission
,
which
was
established
by
our
government
,
clearly
had
within
it
the
requirements
that
visible
minorities
be
incorporated
as
part
of
any
affirmative
action
program
that
would
be
introduced
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
mr.
speaker
,
just
before
the
conservative
government
came
into
office
the
liberal
party
had
been
in
office
a
good
number
of
years
.
{sent}
yet
we
find
today
that
there
are
very
few
women
in
senior
positions
in
the
public
service
.
{sent}
how
does
he
expect
us
to
believe
the
protestations
of
his
party
when
his
own
party
lived
for
so
many
years
with
the
inequality
that
exists
in
the
workplace
today
?
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
do
not
know
whether
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
north
centre
(
mr.
keeper
)
was
here
during
my
remarks
but
i
went
through
the
steps
that
we
have
taken
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
with
what
results
?
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
the
human
rights
act
in
1977
.
{sent}
each
year
and
each
time
a
series
of
steps
were
being
taken
to
correct
the
problems
when
and
if
they
did
not
work
.
{sent}
i
explained
the
initial
attempt
,
which
was
to
develop
a
voluntary
affirmative
action
program
,
but
it
did
not
work
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
may
be
perfect
and
all-seeing
and
all-knowledgeable
,
but
we
as
liberals
do
not
pretend
to
have
that
omniscience
.
{sent}
as
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
--
ibecame
responsible
for
that
department
in
1980
--
i
saw
that
the
voluntary
program
was
not
working
and
initiated
steps
to
make
it
work
.
{sent}
we
had
asked
the
private
sector
why
it
was
not
working
,
and
i
explained
the
reasons
given
.
{sent}
we
then
took
the
necessary
action
.
{sent}
we
started
the
clear
demonstration
programs
within
our
own
departments
to
show
them
it
could
work
.
{sent}
we
then
established
the
abella
commission
to
work
out
a
formula
which
would
ensure
that
it
was
applied
to
all
companies
within
the
federal
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
that
committee
reported
on
the
ways
in
which
to
bring
back
contract
compliance
.
{sent}
a
series
of
progressive
steps
have
been
taken
to
improve
the
condition
substantially
.
{sent}
this
opportunity
,
resulting
from
the
abella
commission
,
could
have
been
a
capstone
to
that
.
{sent}
it
could
have
brought
all
those
strands
together
into
one
very
important
initiative
,
and
that
is
what
has
been
lost
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
proceedings
on
adjournment
motion
{sent}
subject
matter
of
questions
to
be
debated
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
ms.
margaret
mitchell
(
vancouver
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
is
the
fourth
time
i
have
risen
to
speak
on
this
very
important
bill
,
bill
c-62
,
with
regard
to
employment
equity
.
{sent}
as
the
critic
responsible
for
the
status
of
women
,
i
have
a
very
particular
concern
about
how
it
will
or
will
not
affect
opportunities
for
canadian
women
.
{sent}
my
riding
of
vancouver
east
has
one
of
the
largest
representations
of
urban
native
people
,
second
only
to
winnipeg
.
{sent}
there
are
also
a
very
large
number
of
people
who
represent
other
visible
minorities
,
not
to
mention
many
low-income
people
and
many
handicapped
persons
.
{sent}
i
have
,
indeed
,
a
great
deal
of
concern
about
this
bill
.
{sent}
we
had
all
hoped
that
it
would
have
true
meaning
for
these
groups
and
would
present
opportunities
as
never
before
,
at
least
for
employment
in
jobs
which
fall
under
federal
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
i
regret
to
say
that
speaker
after
speaker
and
witness
after
witness
has
pointed
out
that
this
is
not
the
case
.
{sent}
it
is
very
unfortunate
that
,
as
a
precedent
setting
bill
,
it
falls
so
short
of
what
minority
groups
need
and
want
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
take
some
time
to
refer
to
some
of
the
comments
made
by
the
minister
this
morning
.
{sent}
i
was
working
in
my
office
and
could
not
help
but
want
to
respond
to
some
of
the
comments
she
made
.
{sent}
she
said
:
``
is
enabling
legislation
,
not
a
set
of
rigid
guidelines
''
.
{sent}
we
certainly
know
that
it
is
not
a
set
of
rigid
guidelines
.
{sent}
she
quoted
judge
abella
who
said
that
the
government
must
be
aggressive
,
vigilant
,
and
open-minded
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
she
did
not
continue
quoting
the
judge
's
comments
.
{sent}
in
equality
in
employment
at
page
195
,
judge
abella
said
:
{sent}
a
voluntary
program
with
a
mandatory
reporting
requirement
is
nonetheless
voluntary
in
the
absence
of
a
requirement
to
remedy
the
discriminatory
practices
disclosed
by
the
information
reported
.
{sent}
she
goes
on
to
say
:
{sent}
--
it
is
unrealistic
to
rely
on
public
opinion
as
an
effective
monitoring
agent
.
{sent}
she
also
says
:
{sent}
voluntary
programs
in
the
federal
government
have
had
little
impact
on
the
composition
of
the
public
sector
workforce
.
{sent}
we
agree
with
the
minister
that
data
and
information
are
important
,
but
they
are
only
important
if
the
process
does
not
start
here
.
{sent}
it
must
lead
to
action
and
to
results
for
the
target
groups
which
i
have
mentioned
.
{sent}
it
must
lead
to
systemic
changes
in
the
institutions
,
corporations
,
or
businesses
which
are
employing
people
.
{sent}
this
bill
does
not
provide
for
that
.
{sent}
for
example
,
what
difference
does
it
make
if
a
company
meets
the
deadline
for
reporting
and
shows
how
many
or
how
few
women
it
has
in
middle-management
positions
or
non-traditional
jobs
?
{sent}
otherwise
,
i
am
sure
no
employer
will
take
employment
equity
very
seriously
.
{sent}
companies
will
probably
hire
a
few
token
women
in
order
to
avoid
embarrassment
.
{sent}
this
is
not
systemic
change
,
and
is
not
an
adoption
of
employment
equity
policy
.
{sent}
this
is
like
the
prime
minister
's
(
mr.
mulroney
)
approach
to
employment
equity
of
appointing
one
or
two
more
women
to
a
board
in
order
to
keep
them
quiet
.
{sent}
yet
there
is
not
really
a
major
systemic
change
.
{sent}
we
do
not
even
have
a
woman
minister
responsible
for
the
status
of
women
.
{sent}
the
minister
talked
about
how
difficult
it
is
to
deal
with
this
because
it
is
,
in
effect
,
hidden
.
{sent}
i
agree
with
her
.
{sent}
even
if
there
is
provision
to
use
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
,
the
role
of
that
organization
has
been
to
deal
with
individual
complaints
on
a
case
by
case
basis
.
{sent}
the
minister
also
suggested
that
public
disclosure
would
make
the
discrimination
public
,
and
that
the
target
groups
or
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
could
then
take
action
.
{sent}
why
should
they
have
to
do
this
?
{sent}
if
a
mandatory
employment
equity
agreement
is
made
with
the
federal
government
for
every
company
and
crown
corporation
in
its
jurisdiction
,
there
should
be
no
need
for
this
.
{sent}
we
know
that
target
groups
do
not
have
resources
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
justice
(
mr.
crosbie
)
has
not
even
given
them
any
money
for
their
test
cases
on
equality
under
the
charter
of
rights
.
{sent}
how
will
they
get
money
to
appeal
the
complaints
with
regard
to
employment
equity
?
{sent}
believe
me
,
there
will
be
many
,
many
complaints
.
{sent}
even
though
there
have
been
some
increases
in
the
resources
of
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
,
it
has
never
had
enough
resources
to
deal
with
this
.
{sent}
we
need
systemic
change
,
and
this
bill
is
far
from
even
considering
that
.
{sent}
in
that
way
women
and
minorities
will
be
assured
access
to
jobs
whenever
there
is
an
opening
,
and
to
promotions
whenever
they
should
be
eligible
for
them
.
{sent}
there
must
be
penalties
for
lack
of
compliance
by
companies
such
as
banks
,
railways
,
telephone
companies
,
airlines
and
all
those
companies
that
come
under
federal
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
yet
this
bill
only
requires
that
a
report
must
be
filed
at
the
proposed
time
.
{sent}
many
changes
are
needed
.
{sent}
the
minister
says
that
she
will
knock
with
a
big
fist
on
the
doors
of
employers
that
show
progress
.
{sent}
i
wish
her
good
luck
because
she
will
have
to
do
a
lot
of
heavy
door
knocking
two
or
three
years
from
now
,
just
at
the
time
when
she
will
be
knocking
on
doors
in
her
constituency
.
{sent}
i
am
not
convinced
that
gentle
persuasion
will
bring
any
results
.
{sent}
the
liberals
have
proven
that
there
will
be
absolutely
no
results
because
we
saw
under
the
liberal
administration
that
voluntary
affirmative
action
does
not
work
.
{sent}
they
put
forward
many
recommendations
to
improve
the
bill
,
yet
many
of
the
amendments
were
turned
down
by
the
government
.
{sent}
they
spoke
repeatedly
about
the
need
for
more
enforcement
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
urban
alliance
on
race
relations
outlined
five
initiatives
that
are
missing
from
the
bill
.
{sent}
second
,
there
should
be
mandatory
programs
for
all
four
sectors
rather
than
voluntary
programs
with
mandatory
reporting
.
{sent}
fourth
,
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
should
be
a
condition
for
contracting
.
{sent}
fifth
,
affirmative
action
programs
should
be
a
condition
of
all
loans
,
grants
and
receipt
of
cost-sharing
moneys
.
{sent}
this
should
be
expanded
to
many
more
employers
on
which
the
federal
government
has
some
influence
.
{sent}
many
labour
groups
,
including
the
clc
,
spoke
very
strongly
about
the
need
to
negotiate
employment
equity
as
part
of
collective
bargaining
.
{sent}
this
has
also
been
completely
disregarded
by
the
government
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
seemed
to
be
a
little
hostile
when
i
interjected
during
his
remarks
.
{sent}
however
,
i
was
quite
sure
that
he
neglected
to
explain
convincingly
why
he
and
his
liberal
government
did
not
introduce
legislation
to
achieve
employment
equity
in
a
real
sense
.
{sent}
when
he
was
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
he
talked
about
mandatory
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
there
was
no
contract
compliance
.
{sent}
furthermore
,
affirmative
action
was
implemented
in
only
three
departments
of
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
that
does
not
make
sense
because
there
are
many
people
in
the
target
groups
who
wanted
jobs
in
other
departments
.
{sent}
why
is
employment
equity
taking
so
long
?
{sent}
i
have
found
it
difficult
to
understand
why
it
was
possible
for
the
liberal
government
to
do
such
an
effective
job
in
achieving
mandatory
bilingual
policies
in
the
federal
public
service
.
{sent}
they
have
been
successfully
implemented
in
all
departments
of
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
yet
it
was
unable
to
achieve
employment
equity
for
women
,
native
people
,
visible
minorities
and
the
disabled
.
{sent}
before
i
finish
my
remarks
,
i
want
to
move
the
following
amendment
on
behalf
of
my
party
:
{sent}
that
the
amendment
be
amended
by
inserting
after
the
number
3
,
the
number
4
.
{sent}
in
the
time
i
have
left
--
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
once
the
hon.
member
proposes
an
amendment
,
she
must
stop
her
debate
.
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
if
you
would
agree
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
could
leave
the
amendment
until
the
end
of
my
remarks
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
you
will
leave
it
until
the
end
of
your
speech
?
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
i
did
not
understand
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
that
is
fine
.
{sent}
ms.
mitchell
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
pay
particular
attention
to
the
question
of
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
disgraceful
that
women
still
earn
60
cent
dollars
in
canada
today
and
,
as
my
colleague
pointed
out
a
few
minutes
ago
,
the
situation
is
even
getting
worse
.
{sent}
the
minister
responsible
for
the
status
of
women
,
(
mr.
mclean
)
has
spoken
out
strongly
for
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
,
saying
that
this
is
necessary
and
just
.
{sent}
only
last
week
he
said
:
{sent}
equality
and
social
justice
require
that
all
canadians
be
given
a
fair
chance
to
make
their
own
way
in
society
.
{sent}
he
is
in
favour
of
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
but
has
never
advocated
that
this
be
part
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
they
state
that
adequate
resources
must
be
allocated
to
ensure
compliance
.
{sent}
the
abella
report
stressed
the
same
points
and
went
on
to
advocate
strongly
that
this
should
be
part
of
employment
equity
programs
.
{sent}
yet
the
minister
repeatedly
ignored
these
recommendations
and
refused
to
implement
them
.
{sent}
it
has
been
proven
repeatedly
that
enforcing
these
provisions
under
the
canadian
human
rights
act
is
ineffective
.
{sent}
that
act
would
not
cover
all
employees
that
should
be
covered
under
this
bill
.
{sent}
we
very
much
regret
the
lack
of
enforcement
provided
by
this
bill
.
{sent}
i
have
attempted
to
point
out
those
items
of
particular
concern
from
a
woman
's
point
of
view
.
{sent}
in
closing
,
i
move
:
{sent}
that
the
amendment
be
amended
by
inserting
after
number
3
,
the
number
4
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
find
a
difficulty
with
the
subamendment
to
the
subamendment
.
{sent}
i
know
that
the
hon.
members
will
try
to
convince
me
that
what
they
are
doing
is
the
right
thing
.
{sent}
the
chair
is
always
ready
for
arguments
as
to
whether
the
amendment
to
the
amendment
is
in
order
.
{sent}
could
i
have
arguments
on
this
point
?
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
mr.
speaker
,
what
the
hon.
member
for
vancouver
east
(
ms.
mitchell
)
is
trying
to
do
is
to
have
clause
4
looked
at
again
by
the
house
.
{sent}
the
liberal
amendment
originally
had
clauses
3
,
5
and
7
being
reviewed
by
the
committee
.
{sent}
what
the
member
for
vancouver
east
is
saying
is
to
add
clause
4
.
{sent}
i
think
there
is
a
possibility
that
some
people
may
advise
you
that
this
adds
something
different
and
something
new
to
the
amendment
.
{sent}
there
might
be
previous
rulings
to
this
effect
.
{sent}
my
argument
would
be
that
clause
4
is
not
really
new
.
{sent}
it
is
very
much
a
part
of
the
package
.
{sent}
you
cannot
review
clauses
3
,
5
and
7
without
reviewing
clause
4
.
{sent}
it
is
part
of
the
whole
process
.
{sent}
clauses
4
and
5
are
together
in
terms
of
this
legislation
.
{sent}
i
think
it
was
an
oversight
by
the
liberal
party
in
the
first
place
when
it
did
not
include
clause
4
as
part
of
its
review
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
all
interrelated
.
{sent}
all
you
are
doing
is
making
a
rather
imperfect
amendment
more
perfect
.
{sent}
it
simply
adds
another
clause
to
that
particular
amendment
.
{sent}
i
would
submit
,
mr.
speaker
,
for
your
consideration
that
perhaps
the
subamendment
may
be
in
order
,
but
it
would
perhaps
have
come
at
a
better
time
if
it
were
put
following
a
complete
round
of
speakers
on
the
first
amendment
.
{sent}
he
says
that
clause
4
can
stand
alone
.
{sent}
the
subamendment
has
to
be
looked
at
in
context
.
{sent}
first
of
all
,
the
motion
of
the
official
opposition
would
have
clause
7
re-examined
.
{sent}
it
is
its
intention
to
have
clauses
5
to
7
referred
for
re-examination
to
the
committee
.
{sent}
if
the
motion
should
lose
and
clause
7
is
not
referred
for
further
consideration
,
then
you
would
end
up
with
a
situation
in
which
the
penalties
that
the
opposition
would
seek
to
have
would
not
apply
to
clause
4
.
{sent}
further
,
let
us
give
greater
emphasis
to
what
was
said
before
;
clauses
4
and
5
constitute
part
of
the
same
process
.
{sent}
what
we
have
in
clause
4
is
the
requirement
that
the
employer
develop
a
process
for
achieving
employment
equity
.
{sent}
if
the
opposition
amendment
should
lose
,
it
would
throw
into
limbo
any
prospect
for
serious
consideration
of
clause
4
,
which
is
the
subject
of
the
subamendment
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
appreciate
all
of
the
hon.
members
helping
me
out
in
reaching
a
decision
on
this
ruling
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
reserve
my
ruling
for
later
on
today
.
{sent}
in
the
meantime
we
will
carry
on
with
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
was
certainly
quite
an
exercise
in
parliamentary
debate
on
the
amendment
to
the
subamendment
of
the
amendment
to
the
subamendment
.
{sent}
i
feel
obligated
to
participate
in
this
third
reading
of
bill
c-62
because
i
had
the
opportunity
of
being
involved
in
the
second
reading
debate
and
in
the
work
of
the
legislative
committee
.
{sent}
i
listened
and
received
representations
from
the
four
target
groups
that
the
legislation
addresses
.
{sent}
i
was
involved
as
well
in
the
report
stage
.
{sent}
i
must
say
at
the
beginning
of
my
remarks
that
the
process
has
been
a
frustrating
one
.
{sent}
witness
after
witness
came
forward
and
suggested
ways
for
this
parliament
to
strengthen
this
particular
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
that
is
why
it
was
frustrating
,
and
perhaps
futile
,
because
the
message
came
back
again
and
again
,
but
the
members
were
not
listening
.
{sent}
not
only
did
it
come
during
this
process
,
but
we
have
had
various
reports
such
as
that
of
the
abella
commission
,
which
i
think
articulated
a
progressive
solution
to
what
we
speak
of
today
.
{sent}
it
was
bold
and
courageous
and
the
expectations
that
were
created
were
very
great
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
find
today
a
great
deal
of
disappointment
among
the
canadian
community
because
this
piece
of
legislation
does
not
even
come
close
to
adopting
some
of
the
recommendations
of
the
abella
commission
.
{sent}
these
witnesses
and
these
community
groups
that
came
before
us
in
this
process
also
came
before
us
during
the
preparation
of
the
equality
now
report
,
the
equality
for
all
report
,
and
also
the
obstacles
report
in
past
parliaments
.
{sent}
these
groups
and
these
individuals
are
asking
themselves
,
and
are
asking
their
representatives
in
this
chamber
:
how
many
times
do
we
have
to
come
to
ottawa
to
explain
our
case
?
{sent}
how
many
times
must
we
tell
you
what
the
problems
are
?
{sent}
how
many
times
and
how
forceful
can
we
be
in
terms
of
suggesting
a
solution
to
our
problems
in
this
country
?
{sent}
they
have
come
time
and
time
again
and
at
great
expense
.
{sent}
they
have
used
their
energies
and
the
efforts
of
their
organizations
,
which
are
not
the
more
wealthy
or
well
financed
organizations
in
this
country
.
{sent}
they
used
the
resources
they
had
in
a
very
genuine
,
straightforward
and
frank
manner
,
and
we
let
them
down
profoundly
.
{sent}
as
opposition
critic
for
multiculturalism
,
i
can
tell
you
,
mr.
speaker
,
what
they
said
.
{sent}
two
major
organizations
came
before
the
committee
.
{sent}
the
canadian
ethnocultural
council
said
that
it
is
difficult
to
envisage
how
a
voluntary
approach
will
substantially
improve
employment
opportunities
for
the
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
the
chairman
of
the
coalition
of
employment
equity
for
persons
with
disabilities
said
last
monday
,
and
i
quote
:
{sent}
this
bill
will
do
nothing
more
than
provide
the
government
with
employment
information
.
{sent}
it
will
in
no
way
implement
employment
equity
as
there
are
no
penalties
for
failing
to
comply
with
employment
equity
plans
.
{sent}
we
have
tried
everything
.
{sent}
the
government
has
not
responded
to
any
of
our
demands
.
{sent}
if
the
bill
is
not
renamed
,
the
coalition
demands
that
it
be
withdrawn
.
{sent}
no
one
in
this
house
can
say
it
any
better
than
that
.
{sent}
we
can
imagine
the
frustration
of
sitting
through
that
process
and
seeing
absolutely
no
movement
at
all
.
{sent}
we
cannot
blame
these
people
for
asking
why
this
piece
of
legislation
was
introduced
.
{sent}
why
bill
c-62
?
{sent}
why
name
the
four
target
groups
?
{sent}
why
does
the
government
say
it
is
championing
the
rights
of
these
canadians
in
these
four
target
groups
?
{sent}
why
say
that
after
these
four
target
groups
have
said
that
this
legislation
will
not
help
?
{sent}
they
are
saying
that
this
legislation
will
not
improve
the
lots
of
these
individuals
,
and
they
are
right
.
{sent}
why
have
a
piece
of
legislation
for
the
sake
of
having
legislation
which
is
used
as
window
dressing
?
{sent}
it
is
just
used
in
a
public
relations
type
of
way
so
that
the
government
can
say
:
``
look
at
what
we
have
done
for
these
groups
''
.
{sent}
these
four
target
groups
and
other
canadians
who
have
participated
in
the
process
are
not
that
gullible
or
naive
.
{sent}
they
know
when
they
have
effective
legislation
and
when
they
do
not
.
{sent}
they
have
told
parliament
and
the
government
that
this
legislation
is
not
adequate
.
{sent}
therefore
,
it
must
be
incumbent
upon
members
of
this
house
to
listen
to
those
concerns
and
perhaps
put
ourselves
in
their
place
.
{sent}
we
must
realize
what
their
day-to-day
struggles
are
and
ask
ourselves
how
we
would
react
if
we
were
one
of
those
individuals
who
came
before
the
committee
.
{sent}
if
we
did
that
,
i
think
we
would
have
a
greater
degree
of
appreciation
for
and
sensitivity
to
the
representations
made
before
the
committee
,
rather
than
simply
listening
and
not
moving
on
the
recommendations
.
{sent}
we
must
also
examine
our
own
hearts
as
invidual
members
of
parliament
.
{sent}
we
all
know
that
one
of
the
major
concerns
we
face
in
our
responsibility
as
members
of
parliament
is
the
whole
question
of
employment
.
{sent}
we
face
a
number
of
individuals
each
and
every
week
in
our
constituency
offices
.
{sent}
individuals
write
,
phone
and
visit
us
and
all
ask
if
we
can
give
any
assistance
to
them
,
their
relatives
or
friends
who
are
seeking
gainful
employment
.
{sent}
we
know
their
frustration
.
{sent}
we
know
their
loss
of
hope
.
{sent}
we
know
that
,
to
a
certain
degree
,
the
measure
of
one
's
self
worth
and
dignity
is
in
part
related
to
the
whole
question
of
employment
.
{sent}
a
working
life
is
a
fruitful
and
fulfilling
life
.
{sent}
we
all
realize
that
that
is
the
biggest
problem
facing
us
as
members
of
parliament
individually
and
collectively
.
{sent}
i
believe
most
of
us
accept
that
responsibility
.
{sent}
that
is
a
defeating
type
of
blow
which
is
difficult
to
overcome
.
{sent}
we
must
understand
that
.
{sent}
we
should
be
able
to
point
to
this
legislation
in
a
proud
manner
which
transcends
partisan
politics
.
{sent}
we
should
be
able
to
have
a
good
deal
of
pride
in
the
legislation
.
{sent}
but
we
cannot
have
pride
in
bill
c-62
in
its
present
form
.
{sent}
it
does
not
help
the
debate
when
individuals
talk
about
what
the
liberal
government
did
five
years
ago
or
what
the
conservative
government
did
40
years
ago
.
{sent}
it
does
not
further
the
lot
of
these
four
target
groups
.
{sent}
what
we
should
realize
is
that
here
is
the
window
of
opportunity
.
{sent}
we
should
work
together
to
ensure
that
the
legislation
will
meet
the
expectations
created
by
the
abella
commission
.
{sent}
but
when
it
does
not
,
no
one
in
the
house
can
rise
and
beat
his
or
her
chest
saying
:
``
i
am
proud
to
stand
up
today
because
we
have
bill
c-62
''
.
{sent}
they
are
saying
to
us
:
``
maybe
these
problems
are
not
for
you
,
but
they
are
for
me
and
for
the
other
people
who
find
themselves
in
my
circumstances
''
.
{sent}
they
are
canadians
.
{sent}
we
have
a
fairly
progressive
country
known
as
canada
.
{sent}
but
not
all
is
well
,
certainly
when
there
are
complaints
by
those
individuals
who
say
that
they
cannot
find
employment
because
of
the
items
we
have
listed
.
{sent}
it
is
simply
not
good
enough
to
look
the
other
way
and
give
them
bill
c-62
and
say
:
``
we
have
dealt
with
your
problems
.
{sent}
let
's
move
on
to
other
ones
''
.
{sent}
in
addressing
these
concerns
,
and
in
trying
to
articulate
those
which
were
made
as
representations
to
the
committee
,
we
moved
amendments
to
the
bill
.
{sent}
we
were
not
attempting
to
oppose
for
the
sake
of
opposing
.
{sent}
in
the
process
we
moved
36
amendments
which
were
intended
to
strengthen
the
bill
.
{sent}
they
were
intended
to
take
what
we
received
from
the
community
and
turn
it
into
reality
.
{sent}
if
they
had
been
accepted
by
the
government
,
then
the
four
target
groups
would
be
satisfied
today
,
as
would
the
opposition
party
,
the
liberal
party
.
{sent}
then
we
would
have
no
problem
voting
in
favour
of
the
legislation
and
dealing
with
something
else
.
{sent}
we
would
know
that
we
had
dealt
with
the
subject
in
a
comprehensive
and
,
most
important
,
fair
way
.
{sent}
but
we
have
not
.
{sent}
a
number
of
the
amendments
were
crucial
to
the
whole
direction
and
thrust
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
one
was
to
include
a
provision
with
respect
to
an
enforcement
agency
since
in
the
bill
there
is
no
such
provision
.
{sent}
it
was
judge
abella
who
said
that
if
we
cannot
enforce
rights
,
then
they
are
just
as
good
as
unavailable
rights
.
{sent}
those
words
capture
the
spirit
of
what
is
lacking
in
this
bill
.
{sent}
they
crystalize
the
opposition
that
we
have
seen
to
this
piece
of
legislation
and
the
malaise
which
is
written
into
every
page
of
it
.
{sent}
the
governing
party
said
:
``
we
have
the
human
rights
commission
to
deal
with
it
somehow
''
.
{sent}
however
,
at
the
moment
the
commission
does
not
have
the
resources
.
{sent}
at
the
moment
,
it
deals
on
a
reactive
mode
,
on
a
one-to-one
basis
,
not
as
an
agency
which
has
the
ability
to
oversee
this
type
of
legislation
on
a
national
basis
.
{sent}
in
this
way
we
would
have
been
convinced
that
some
mechanism
would
be
put
in
place
to
oversee
the
legislation
.
{sent}
however
,
the
amendment
in
this
respect
was
not
accepted
.
{sent}
individual
people
in
the
four
target
groups
and
members
of
my
party
are
asking
why
.
{sent}
if
one
believes
that
the
human
rights
commission
is
the
answer
,
then
let
us
be
frank
and
put
a
provision
with
respect
to
it
in
the
legislation
.
{sent}
another
of
our
amendments
suggested
that
the
bill
apply
to
all
federal
government
departments
which
are
presently
exempted
from
the
bill
.
{sent}
if
we
have
a
federal
government
which
says
:
``
this
is
our
vision
.
{sent}
this
is
what
we
want
the
private
sector
and
the
crown
corporations
to
do
''
,
then
what
is
wrong
with
not
pursuing
that
and
having
the
force
of
those
measures
obligate
the
federal
government
to
act
accordingly
?
{sent}
after
all
,
we
have
to
show
leadership
and
we
can
only
do
that
by
example
.
{sent}
another
amendment
we
suggested
based
on
representations
we
received
at
committee
stage
was
to
apply
the
bill
to
all
businesses
under
federal
jurisdiction
with
25
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
the
present
bill
applies
to
businesses
with
100
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
that
very
regulation
does
away
with
most
of
the
companies
doing
business
with
the
government
since
a
great
number
of
them
--
the
majority
i
am
told
--
have
less
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
therefore
,
we
suggested
that
the
threshold
be
placed
at
25
.
{sent}
even
the
americans
,
whom
we
sometimes
hit
over
the
head
when
we
talk
about
human
rights
,
have
contract
compliance
legislation
which
ensures
that
businesses
doing
business
with
the
government
follow
its
criteria
.
{sent}
its
criterion
is
for
only
50
employees
,
and
we
are
stuck
at
100
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
notice
that
you
are
motioning
to
me
that
i
have
but
one
minute
left
in
which
to
wrap
up
.
{sent}
there
were
other
amendments
i
wanted
to
go
over
,
but
i
will
not
have
the
time
to
do
that
.
{sent}
so
what
is
the
choice
?
{sent}
what
are
we
trying
to
suggest
at
third
reading
?
{sent}
to
put
it
very
simply
,
as
an
eleventh
hour
pitch
,
it
is
to
reconsider
the
inaction
of
this
legislation
and
to
consider
the
inequities
in
it
.
{sent}
it
is
ironic
that
we
should
be
pushing
employment
equity
while
at
the
same
time
we
know
that
the
legislation
has
tremendous
shortcomings
.
{sent}
this
message
does
not
come
from
members
of
the
new
democratic
party
or
from
members
of
the
liberal
party
.
{sent}
it
comes
from
canadians
who
are
saying
that
the
bill
will
not
deliver
equity
.
{sent}
it
is
only
window-dressing
.
{sent}
i
hope
the
government
sees
the
light
.
{sent}
mr.
david
orlikow
(
winnipeg
north
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
should
be
obvious
to
any
member
of
parliament
,
and
certainly
to
anyone
who
represents
an
urban
constituency
,
that
there
still
exists
a
great
deal
of
discrimination
against
members
of
minority
groups
in
employment
.
{sent}
by
minority
groups
i
include
the
handicapped
,
native
people
,
women
,
and
members
of
racial
minority
groups
,
particularly
those
who
come
from
visible
minorities
,
that
is
,
non-whites
.
{sent}
governments
,
both
federal
and
provincial
,
recognize
that
such
prejudice
and
discrimination
have
existed
for
many
years
.
{sent}
so
governments
have
,
over
the
years
,
enacted
fair
employment
and
fair
accommodation
practices
legislation
.
{sent}
this
legislation
has
somewhat
lessened
the
discrimination
in
employment
felt
by
members
of
these
groups
.
{sent}
however
,
a
great
deal
of
discrimination
still
exists
.
{sent}
the
former
liberal
government
appointed
judge
abella
to
look
into
the
matter
.
{sent}
she
conducted
an
investigation
and
made
a
report
to
which
all
of
us
should
have
paid
some
attention
.
{sent}
i
have
in
front
of
me
part
of
a
statement
made
by
the
present
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
in
august
of
1984
.
{sent}
he
said
:
{sent}
our
party
will
ensure
that
companies
providing
services
to
the
federal
government
hire
increasing
numbers
of
women
to
perform
such
services
.
{sent}
let
me
put
on
the
record
the
last
sentence
.
{sent}
i
hope
the
parliamentary
secretary
is
listening
carefully
because
this
is
the
crux
of
our
fundamental
disagreement
with
the
government
and
the
bill
.
{sent}
the
prime
minister
,
then
leader
of
the
official
opposition
,
concluded
the
paragraph
which
i
just
read
by
saying
the
following
:
{sent}
numerical
goals
are
one
of
several
goals
required
:
training
and
retraining
are
others
.
{sent}
that
was
a
promise
made
by
the
prime
minister
when
he
was
leader
of
the
official
opposition
at
a
time
when
we
were
heading
into
an
election
which
he
hoped
his
party
would
win
so
that
he
could
become
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
his
party
did
win
the
election
.
{sent}
he
is
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
what
has
happened
to
the
commitment
he
made
?
{sent}
if
there
is
one
thing
that
is
conspicuously
missing
from
this
bill
,
it
is
the
promise
made
by
the
prime
minister
that
the
legislation
his
government
would
bring
forward
would
include
numerical
goals
.
{sent}
the
experience
of
other
jurisdictions
,
including
the
united
states
,
is
that
without
numerical
goals
,
the
objective
of
employment
equity
will
not
be
reached
.
{sent}
without
numerical
goals
and
targets
which
are
monitored
by
the
government
,
employers
,
both
public
and
private
,
simply
will
not
do
what
we
want
them
to
do
.
{sent}
it
is
not
surprising
that
this
bill
has
been
criticized
and
rejected
by
all
the
interested
groups
.
{sent}
let
me
put
on
the
record
a
few
of
the
assessments
they
have
made
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
beryl
potter
of
the
coalition
on
employment
equity
for
persons
with
disabilities
had
this
to
say
about
the
bill
:
{sent}
--
it
's
not
even
worth
the
paper
it
's
written
on
...
i
've
never
been
so
disillusioned
in
my
life
as
i
am
with
prime
minister
mulroney
.
{sent}
i
was
a
supporter
of
him
.
{sent}
i
worked
for
him
in
his
campaign
and
i
am
totally
,
totally
disillusioned
.
{sent}
the
inuit
tapirisat
of
canada
which
represents
the
inuit
people
of
canada
had
this
to
say
:
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
of
limited
value
.
{sent}
suzanne
boivin
of
the
national
association
of
women
and
the
law
said
:
{sent}
nothing
will
change
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
it
is
simply
wishful
thinking
.
{sent}
since
this
bill
was
first
tabled
almost
a
year
ago
,
the
new
democratic
party
has
taken
the
position
that
it
is
rife
with
flaws
.
{sent}
to
reiterate
,
we
stated
that
it
failed
to
embrace
five
principles
which
we
promoted
at
every
opportunity
.
{sent}
first
,
there
is
an
absence
of
real
enforcement
and
adequate
penalties
under
a
mandatory
equity
scheme
.
{sent}
second
,
there
is
no
reference
made
to
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
third
,
contract
compliance
is
not
included
.
{sent}
fourth
,
there
is
no
obligation
to
negotiate
equity
where
there
is
a
bargaining
unit
.
{sent}
fifth
,
the
coverage
of
the
bill
is
inadequate
.
{sent}
it
does
not
include
federal
departments
.
{sent}
i
challenge
government
members
and
cabinet
ministers
to
look
at
government
departments
,
department
by
department
,
including
those
which
were
targeted
for
affirmative
action
by
the
former
liberal
government
.
{sent}
they
will
see
how
little
we
have
accomplished
.
{sent}
they
will
see
how
few
women
work
in
areas
other
than
clerical
.
{sent}
i
would
urge
hon.
members
to
look
particularly
at
the
department
of
indian
affairs
and
northern
development
to
see
how
woefully
neglectful
we
have
been
.
{sent}
they
will
see
how
few
members
of
visible
minorities
work
for
the
federal
government
at
any
level
in
any
city
.
{sent}
if
they
had
the
courage
to
look
at
what
has
taken
place
up
until
now
,
they
would
see
how
ludicrous
it
is
to
bring
in
a
bill
without
any
requirement
for
action
.
{sent}
the
bill
is
now
at
third
reading
stage
,
and
this
gives
me
an
opportunity
to
review
the
flaws
in
the
bill
which
centre
around
the
absence
of
these
requirements
.
{sent}
in
our
view
and
in
the
view
of
the
spokespeople
for
the
target
groups
,
this
bill
will
not
move
us
much
closer
to
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
bill
does
have
a
lofty
purpose
.
{sent}
no
witness
found
fault
with
the
bill
's
intention
which
,
according
to
clause
2
,
is
the
following
:
{sent}
that
is
a
noble
goal
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
having
stated
the
principle
and
outlined
the
goal
,
the
bill
then
goes
on
to
do
everything
possible
to
see
that
that
goal
is
not
achieved
.
{sent}
this
bill
must
be
viewed
as
a
bill
for
voluntary
equity
with
mandatory
reporting
of
workforce
data
.
{sent}
it
is
that
and
no
more
.
{sent}
there
are
three
clauses
in
the
bill
which
make
certain
demands
on
the
employers
that
are
intended
to
move
them
toward
equity
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
however
,
only
clause
5
is
subject
to
a
maximum
penalty
of
$
50,000
on
summary
conviction
.
{sent}
we
attempted
to
increase
this
penalty
to
$
500,000
because
many
of
the
firms
covered
by
bill
c-62
are
very
large
.
{sent}
i
am
thinking
in
particular
of
the
major
banks
,
the
cnr
,
the
cpr
,
air
canada
and
cp
air
.
{sent}
for
many
of
them
,
a
potential
$
50,000
fine
would
simply
be
part
of
the
cost
of
doing
business
.
{sent}
that
occurred
for
many
years
with
the
anti-combines
legislation
.
{sent}
on
the
very
few
occasions
when
a
company
was
charged
,
prosecuted
and
found
guilty
,
it
paid
a
relatively
small
fine
.
{sent}
it
was
like
a
licence
giving
these
companies
the
right
to
continue
to
break
the
law
,
and
this
is
the
same
thing
.
{sent}
clause
6
requires
the
employer
to
gather
data
annually
.
{sent}
critics
have
indicated
that
the
required
data
is
a
bare
minimum
.
{sent}
as
was
pointed
out
,
an
employer
could
report
year
after
year
,
yet
the
data
could
show
no
significant
change
for
target
groups
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
there
is
no
penalty
for
no
progress
.
{sent}
if
there
is
no
penalty
for
no
progress
,
an
employer
could
report
that
every
year
.
{sent}
in
that
event
he
would
be
obeying
the
law
and
following
the
instructions
contained
in
the
law
.
{sent}
he
could
simply
report
that
he
has
continued
the
practice
but
had
not
moved
toward
employment
equity
.
{sent}
what
happens
then
?
{sent}
nothing
,
because
there
is
no
penalty
for
not
moving
toward
employment
equity
.
{sent}
however
,
i
emphasize
that
the
human
rights
commission
does
not
enforce
the
employment
equity
bill
.
{sent}
the
commission
will
be
enforcing
the
provisions
of
the
canadian
human
rights
act
as
they
may
apply
to
the
workplace
based
upon
data
contained
in
the
annual
reports
.
{sent}
what
if
the
data
is
wrong
?
{sent}
well
,
it
would
be
too
bad
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
the
type
of
data
required
in
the
reports
.
{sent}
first
,
there
would
be
the
industrial
sector
locale
,
the
number
of
employees
,
and
the
number
in
the
target
group
.
{sent}
second
,
there
would
be
a
description
of
the
occupational
groups
in
the
workplace
and
the
number
of
target
groups
in
each
occupation
.
{sent}
third
,
there
would
be
the
salary
ranges
and
the
number
of
target
group
persons
in
each
salary
range
.
{sent}
fourth
,
there
would
be
the
number
of
employees
hired
,
promoted
and
terminated
,
and
the
number
of
target
group
persons
who
fit
into
each
circumstance
.
{sent}
action
plans
were
not
in
the
original
bill
.
{sent}
indeed
,
the
minister
claimed
before
the
committee
that
an
action
plan
for
producing
equity
was
inherent
in
a
company
.
{sent}
ultimately
the
government
responded
by
presenting
the
committee
with
an
amendment
forcing
companies
to
prepare
action
plans
which
contained
goals
and
timetables
.
{sent}
however
,
these
action
plans
will
be
strictly
confidential
.
{sent}
as
various
hon.
members
have
said
,
the
plans
can
remain
locked
up
in
firms'
personnel
offices
,
shielded
from
all
prying
eyes
.
{sent}
they
charged
that
the
cnr
was
certainly
not
prepared
to
hire
women
in
non-traditional
jobs
such
as
those
in
the
maintenance
shops
in
montreal
,
moncton
,
winnipeg
or
wherever
.
{sent}
i
am
speaking
from
memory
when
i
say
that
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
found
that
their
claim
was
valid
.
{sent}
if
the
action
plan
is
kept
secret
,
how
will
employees
or
prospective
employees
who
want
to
work
for
the
company
know
what
is
happening
?
{sent}
i
was
pleasantly
surprised
some
weeks
ago
when
i
visited
the
branch
of
the
bank
with
which
i
deal
in
winnipeg
to
see
a
black
person
working
as
a
teller
,
the
only
one
i
have
seen
.
{sent}
if
there
are
any
,
they
are
certainly
very
few
in
number
.
{sent}
there
is
no
penalty
for
failing
to
develop
an
action
plan
,
even
a
poor
and
inadequate
one
.
{sent}
the
ndp
has
attempted
to
have
penalty
provisions
included
in
clause
7
,
but
it
has
been
to
no
avail
.
{sent}
the
suggestion
was
rejected
by
the
government
.
{sent}
we
have
also
moved
motions
to
cause
employers
to
file
their
action
plans
with
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
and
to
post
them
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
they
were
not
accepted
.
{sent}
we
are
not
suggesting
that
there
should
be
canadian
human
rights
commission
approval
of
action
plans
.
{sent}
we
are
simply
saying
that
it
would
be
useful
,
in
trying
to
meet
the
objectives
of
the
bill
,
if
companies
were
required
to
make
the
plans
public
.
{sent}
i
note
that
my
time
is
coming
to
an
end
,
but
i
should
like
to
compare
the
bill
with
the
legislation
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
the
americans
began
to
put
legislation
into
effect
years
ago
.
{sent}
the
legislation
in
its
final
form
was
brought
in
during
the
administration
of
president
johnson
.
{sent}
the
plan
requires
employers
to
set
targets
and
goals
,
and
to
have
target
dates
for
the
hiring
of
people
from
various
minority
groups
.
{sent}
the
legislation
has
made
tremendous
difference
and
has
led
to
tremendous
improvement
in
the
employment
of
people
from
minority
groups
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
that
country
now
has
the
most
ideological
president
which
it
has
had
in
50
years
.
{sent}
some
of
his
advisers
have
indicated
that
they
want
business
to
be
free
and
that
they
do
not
need
that
kind
of
legislation
,
those
numbers
or
goals
.
{sent}
it
is
interesting
and
significant
that
u.s.
secretary
of
labour
bill
brock
has
carried
on
a
campaign
within
the
u.s.
administration
to
retain
those
numbers
and
goals
,
that
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
he
is
being
supported
publicly
by
the
national
association
of
manufacturers
,
the
same
kind
of
organization
which
in
canada
is
the
main
opponent
of
doing
that
here
.
{sent}
why
is
that
organization
opposing
it
?
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
have
given
the
hon.
member
an
extra
couple
of
minutes
to
wind
up
.
{sent}
i
will
now
ask
for
questions
and
comments
from
the
house
,
and
i
am
sure
the
hon.
member
will
be
able
to
carry
on
with
some
of
his
remarks
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
know
the
hon.
member
has
had
a
good
deal
of
experience
with
the
american
legislation
because
he
worked
for
the
canadian
labour
congress
on
the
matter
.
{sent}
from
my
observation
of
the
american
legislation
,
it
has
been
quite
successful
for
visible
minorities
and
,
in
particular
,
black
hispanics
in
areas
like
the
american
post
office
and
so
on
.
{sent}
as
the
member
pointed
out
the
other
day
,
when
you
visit
an
american
post
office
in
chicago
,
los
angeles
or
new
york
,
an
overwhelming
number
of
employees
are
black
or
hispanics
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
from
my
meetings
in
washington
that
with
women
,
especially
at
higher
levels
,
the
program
has
not
been
as
successful
.
{sent}
i
may
be
mistaken
.
{sent}
women
may
not
have
had
the
same
success
as
these
groups
have
.
{sent}
i
would
appreciate
the
hon.
member
's
further
comment
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
no
actual
figures
,
but
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
is
correct
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
that
women
have
been
as
successful
as
have
the
black
and
hispanic
organizations
in
attaining
the
goals
which
all
these
minority
groups
have
set
for
themselves
.
{sent}
i
suppose
the
reason
for
that
is
simple
.
{sent}
the
people
in
the
groups
with
the
political
clout
get
the
most
.
{sent}
in
any
area
you
look
,
you
will
see
the
americans
are
far
ahead
of
canadians
.
{sent}
if
the
government
tells
us
what
we
are
required
to
do
,
we
will
do
it
.
{sent}
if
the
numbers
are
not
there
and
the
goals
are
not
there
,
if
the
target
dates
are
not
there
,
no
matter
what
we
do
,
we
will
be
accused
by
some
people
that
we
have
not
done
enough
''
.
{sent}
if
they
did
that
,
i
am
sure
they
would
come
back
and
be
prepared
to
agree
to
amending
the
bill
along
the
lines
i
have
suggested
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
comment
and
a
question
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
north
(
mr.
orlikow
)
was
mentioning
the
american
program
of
mandatory
affirmative
action
,
employment
equity
.
{sent}
if
i
remember
correctly
,
during
the
second
world
war
or
thereabouts
the
american
program
was
not
mandatory
.
{sent}
it
was
a
voluntary
program
and
the
americans
found
out
that
it
did
not
work
.
{sent}
they
decided
to
change
it
in
the
1960s
.
{sent}
i
am
not
sure
of
all
the
reasons
they
did
so
,
but
i
know
the
member
for
winnipeg
north
is
very
well
read
and
versed
in
this
area
.
{sent}
perhaps
he
can
elaborate
on
why
this
change
was
made
.
{sent}
i
also
understand
there
are
some
members
of
the
american
cabinet
who
are
talking
about
ending
the
affirmative
action
program
in
the
united
states
,
some
of
the
more
reactionary
members
of
mr.
reagan
's
own
cabinet
.
{sent}
how
widespread
is
that
mood
and
why
are
they
trying
to
do
this
if
there
is
a
feeling
in
the
united
states
that
this
is
a
good
program
?
{sent}
perhaps
the
member
could
shed
some
light
on
those
questions
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
mr.
speaker
,
as
i
have
already
indicated
,
the
secretary
of
labour
in
the
united
states
,
bill
brock
,
has
made
very
clear
his
support
for
the
existing
law
and
the
existing
system
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
the
reasons
are
obvious
.
{sent}
it
works
.
{sent}
let
me
make
one
thing
clear
.
{sent}
when
we
talk
about
employment
equity
and
affirmative
action
,
we
are
not
saying
to
employers
that
we
want
them
to
hire
unqualified
members
of
minority
groups
for
the
job
.
{sent}
that
would
be
wrong
and
it
would
be
stupid
.
{sent}
we
are
saying
that
we
want
employers
to
hire
qualified
members
of
the
minority
groups
.
{sent}
let
me
put
on
the
record
a
few
paragraphs
from
a
letter
which
joseph
rauh
,
a
famous
civil
rights
advocate
in
the
united
states
,
wrote
to
congressman
james
scheuer
,
himself
a
supporter
of
affirmative
action
and
civil
rights
.
{sent}
there
are
,
of
course
,
differences
about
how
laws
can
be
interpreted
and
how
they
will
work
.
{sent}
mr.
rauh
was
talking
about
whether
medical
colleges
should
be
required
to
accept
black
applicants
.
{sent}
he
says
,
and
it
is
a
very
good
illustration
:
{sent}
but
in
the
light
of
300
years
of
discrimination
against
blacks
,
is
it
too
much
to
ask
that
some
preference
be
given
to
blacks
among
qualified
candidates
for
admission
?
{sent}
i
stress
``
qualified
candidates
''
.
{sent}
then
in
another
letter
he
says
:
{sent}
the
problem
is
not
a
qualified
white
against
an
unqualified
black
--
{sent}
what
we
are
talking
about
is
applications
of
qualified
members
of
minority
groups
,
that
they
must
be
given
some
assistance
,
a
step
up
.
{sent}
that
is
what
we
are
talking
about
in
employment
equity
.
{sent}
that
is
what
the
government
refuses
to
address
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
and
comments
are
now
terminated
.
{sent}
debate
.
{sent}
the
official
opposition
is
saying
that
in
clause
3
the
government
of
canada
should
include
departments
of
the
government
of
canada
and
crown
corporations
of
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
then
clauses
5
to
7
talk
about
an
employer
who
has
to
file
a
report
,
a
report
on
what
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
a
report
not
only
on
the
occupational
groups
,
but
also
on
the
salary
ranges
of
employees
.
{sent}
why
are
salary
ranges
of
employees
there
?
{sent}
suppose
for
a
moment
that
the
salary
ranges
of
employees
of
the
federal
government
had
to
be
reported
.
{sent}
what
happens
?
{sent}
a
copy
is
therefore
sent
to
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
.
{sent}
obviously
the
salary
ranges
would
be
submitted
to
determine
whether
there
is
discrimination
within
that
particular
group
of
employees
.
{sent}
suppose
there
was
a
group
of
people
hired
in
canada
who
did
the
same
job
but
received
different
wages
in
every
town
and
city
throughout
the
country
.
{sent}
suppose
they
were
working
for
the
same
employer
in
the
same
job
classification
and
performing
the
same
work
,
but
all
received
different
salaries
.
{sent}
i
can
list
several
occupations
in
canada
which
earn
different
salaries
from
the
same
employer
.
{sent}
according
to
this
bill
,
the
employer
has
to
report
the
salaries
he
pays
.
{sent}
the
official
opposition
is
saying
that
the
government
of
canada
and
crown
corporations
should
be
included
in
that
reporting
.
{sent}
suppose
that
the
wage
paid
in
edmonton
was
below
that
paid
in
calgary
.
{sent}
suppose
the
wage
paid
in
saskatchewan
was
lower
still
,
but
the
wage
paid
in
manitoba
was
higher
.
{sent}
we
are
doing
a
lot
of
supposing
,
mr.
speaker
,
but
the
punch
line
is
going
to
come
very
shortly
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
ottawa
--
carleton
)
:
we
suppose
.
{sent}
mr.
baker
:
suppose
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
the
salary
paid
by
the
same
employer
in
the
yukon
and
northwest
territories
was
substantially
higher
for
the
same
job
in
the
same
classification
.
{sent}
suppose
that
the
wage
paid
by
the
same
employer
for
the
same
job
classification
and
absolutely
the
same
work
was
$
2
higher
an
hour
in
halifax
and
moncton
than
in
newfoundland
.
{sent}
suppose
,
again
,
that
three
separate
wage
rates
were
paid
in
british
columbia
and
that
six
different
wage
rates
were
paid
in
ontario
.
{sent}
the
financial
administration
act
lists
dozens
and
dozens
of
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
if
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
(
miss
macdonald
)
were
to
appoint
a
commission
,
it
would
be
excluded
as
well
because
it
is
defined
under
the
financial
administration
act
as
a
corporation
.
{sent}
someone
looking
at
this
impartially
would
ask
why
a
person
in
newfoundland
is
paid
$
2
less
per
hour
for
doing
the
same
job
as
a
fellow
in
the
next
province
is
doing
.
{sent}
that
only
covers
16,800
federal
employees
.
{sent}
i
will
give
you
another
example
,
which
is
even
worse
.
{sent}
in
another
branch
of
the
federal
government
the
one
hundredth
and
second
line
of
longitude
separates
a
high
salary
from
a
low
salary
.
{sent}
picture
two
icebreakers
tied
up
at
victoria
island
in
cambridge
bay
as
there
will
be
next
month
.
{sent}
one
icebreaker
is
from
british
columbia
and
the
other
is
from
newfoundland
,
quebec
,
or
one
of
the
atlantic
provinces
.
{sent}
both
ships
are
tied
up
at
longitude
105o
.
{sent}
one
ship
's
crew
is
getting
$
200
more
per
month
than
is
the
other
ship
's
crew
for
doing
the
same
job
in
the
same
job
classification
for
the
same
employer
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
those
are
all
men
.
{sent}
mr.
baker
:
the
hon.
gentleman
says
that
these
are
all
men
,
but
that
is
not
exactly
true
,
because
some
members
of
the
ships'
crews
are
women
.
{sent}
however
,
he
has
a
point
that
most
of
them
are
men
.
{sent}
we
get
into
a
problem
when
we
talk
about
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
the
law
says
that
there
must
be
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
,
but
there
is
no
law
in
canada
with
regard
to
equal
pay
for
equal
work
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
how
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
or
the
courts
could
not
interpret
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
to
mean
equal
pay
for
equal
work
,
but
that
is
the
interpretation
.
{sent}
i
cannot
find
anything
that
says
``
equal
pay
for
equal
work
''
,
but
i
can
find
``
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
''
.
{sent}
let
me
conclude
my
point
by
explaining
what
the
problem
is
and
how
it
evolved
.
{sent}
we
must
be
honest
when
we
consider
this
in
the
historical
context
.
{sent}
this
began
with
a
five
cent
an
hour
difference
,
to
which
the
percentages
were
added
.
{sent}
i
suppose
the
unions
and
the
present
government
had
no
choice
but
to
maintain
some
difference
in
their
negotiations
.
{sent}
the
human
rights
commission
has
responded
to
the
point
i
am
making
by
saying
that
this
involves
a
negotiated
settlement
.
{sent}
while
there
is
nothing
in
black
and
white
that
requires
equal
pay
for
equal
work
,
it
is
written
in
black
and
white
that
there
should
be
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
i
cannot
imagine
accepting
the
fact
that
you
have
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
but
there
is
not
equal
pay
for
equal
work
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
the
occupations
on
the
list
.
{sent}
there
is
a
$
3
difference
in
precision
working
.
{sent}
there
is
a
difference
of
at
least
$
4
an
hour
in
vehicle
and
heavy
equipment
maintenance
.
{sent}
there
is
a
difference
of
at
least
$
4
in
electrical
installing
and
maintenance
.
{sent}
there
is
a
difference
of
over
$
2
an
hour
for
different
groups
in
machine
driving
operating
.
{sent}
there
is
a
difference
of
at
least
$
3
an
hour
with
respect
to
the
manipulating
subgroup
working
for
the
same
employer
and
in
the
same
job
classification
,
depending
on
where
one
works
in
canada
.
{sent}
there
is
a
$
4
an
hour
difference
for
the
woodworking
subgroup
,
depending
on
where
one
is
working
.
{sent}
with
respect
to
the
pipe
fitting
subgroup
,
there
is
a
$
2
an
hour
difference
.
{sent}
in
kingston
,
an
area
which
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
represents
,
it
is
substantially
less
than
the
wage
settlements
for
the
same
group
in
toronto
.
{sent}
i
realize
that
the
government
of
canada
and
the
unions
have
a
problem
in
negotiating
a
change
to
the
system
.
{sent}
we
cannot
make
a
distinction
between
people
because
of
where
they
live
or
where
they
happen
to
travel
during
their
work
.
{sent}
the
government
attempts
to
appear
lily-white
with
respect
to
the
question
of
employment
equity
and
equal
pay
for
equal
work
.
{sent}
that
is
simply
not
the
case
.
{sent}
the
treasury
board
would
certainly
need
much
more
money
from
the
government
in
order
to
bring
the
lowest
paid
workers
to
the
level
of
the
highest
paid
workers
.
{sent}
today
,
members
of
parliament
are
receiving
letters
from
their
constituents
who
are
pointing
out
that
they
are
making
less
money
than
someone
performing
the
same
job
in
the
next
constituency
.
{sent}
what
should
a
member
of
parliament
do
?
{sent}
first
,
we
phone
the
human
rights
commission
,
which
states
that
it
does
not
have
jurisdiction
in
this
area
because
it
only
deals
with
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
the
union
says
that
while
the
problem
is
serious
,
it
cannot
negotiate
for
enough
money
to
bring
every
one
up
to
the
same
standard
.
{sent}
we
are
told
by
treasury
board
that
this
is
an
historical
settlement
which
was
negotiated
with
the
union
.
{sent}
there
is
nothing
in
the
charter
or
the
employment
equity
bill
dealing
with
this
situation
.
{sent}
newfoundland
is
the
lowest
on
the
scale
in
every
negotiated
salary
as
far
as
zone
rates
of
pay
are
concerned
.
{sent}
under
their
negotiated
contract
,
newfoundland
workers
are
paid
$
2
,
$
3
and
sometimes
$
4
an
hour
less
for
performing
the
same
job
for
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
the
government
of
canada
says
that
it
cannot
cure
the
problem
because
of
the
charter
of
rights
,
the
bill
of
rights
or
anything
else
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
to
interrupt
the
hon.
member
but
his
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
we
still
have
a
question
and
comment
period
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
has
made
some
valid
points
with
respect
to
employment
equity
as
it
affects
workers
from
different
regions
of
canada
.
{sent}
as
he
knows
,
this
bill
asks
that
employers
carry
out
employment
equity
only
for
those
in
designated
groups
.
{sent}
those
designated
groups
are
women
,
visible
minorities
,
native
people
and
the
disabled
.
{sent}
it
does
not
say
anything
about
other
groups
or
individuals
who
might
be
discriminated
against
on
the
basis
of
national
or
ethnic
origin
,
religion
,
age
or
the
region
from
which
they
come
.
{sent}
that
is
nine
different
bases
for
outlawing
discrimination
.
{sent}
this
bill
on
employment
equity
deals
with
only
four
groups
.
{sent}
the
other
act
he
referred
to
is
the
canadian
human
rights
act
.
{sent}
the
canadian
human
rights
act
is
even
broader
than
the
charter
of
rights
.
{sent}
here
we
have
a
law
that
provides
for
employment
equity
for
only
four
groups
.
{sent}
the
abella
commission
recommended
that
we
legislate
in
that
area
,
but
that
has
not
happened
.
{sent}
why
does
he
think
that
there
is
this
difference
between
some
statutes
in
not
allowing
discrimination
and
this
bill
,
which
only
deals
with
four
groups
?
{sent}
could
he
give
us
the
reasons
that
he
believes
are
the
basis
of
that
sort
of
discrimination
between
statutes
?
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
vancouver
east
(
mrs.
mitchell
)
earlier
today
proposed
to
move
a
subamendment
to
the
amendment
now
before
the
house
.
{sent}
after
hearing
argument
on
the
procedural
acceptability
of
the
subamendment
i
reserved
my
decision
.
{sent}
i
am
now
ready
to
rule
,
and
it
is
with
regret
that
i
must
inform
the
hon.
member
that
i
cannot
put
her
subamendment
to
the
house
.
{sent}
i
listened
carefully
to
the
arguments
,
which
point
to
the
extent
to
which
clause
4
is
related
to
the
clauses
included
in
the
amendment
presently
before
the
house
.
{sent}
however
,
the
chair
must
be
guided
by
the
practices
of
the
house
.
{sent}
on
december
15
,
1971
,
the
hon.
russell
honey
,
then
the
deputy
speaker
stated
:
{sent}
the
difficulty
is
that
when
an
hon.
member
proposes
a
sub-amendment
he
is
under
the
constraint
that
he
must
not
enlarge
on
,
or
differ
in
substance
from
,
the
amendment
he
is
purporting
to
further
amend
.
{sent}
there
are
further
references
to
this
effect
in
beauchesne
's
fifth
edition
in
citation
438
.
{sent}
thus
,
it
is
with
respect
that
i
have
to
refuse
to
allow
the
subamendment
of
the
hon.
member
for
vancouver
east
(
ms.
mitchell
)
.
{sent}
it
may
necessitate
,
of
course
,
carrying
the
debate
over
for
another
day
,
but
that
being
the
case
i
can
understand
the
difficulty
that
you
are
faced
with
.
{sent}
we
may
have
to
do
just
that
in
order
to
have
the
amendment
put
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
will
check
the
procedureal
acceptability
of
out
what
the
hon.
member
has
just
said
,
and
in
the
meantime
we
will
carry
on
with
the
debate
.
{sent}
that
is
probably
the
problem
right
there
,
that
this
is
really
the
only
thing
that
the
present
government
has
done
or
has
any
plans
for
doing
during
its
one
term
in
office
.
{sent}
the
reason
it
is
suspect
is
that
,
first
and
foremost
,
as
has
been
pointed
out
,
a
corporation
that
is
a
department
as
defined
in
the
financial
admnistration
act
is
not
included
under
the
bill
.
{sent}
that
was
the
subject
of
a
speech
which
he
gave
in
the
house
the
first
day
that
the
bill
was
introduced
,
and
the
government
took
that
advice
.
{sent}
you
are
telling
the
employers
that
they
have
to
do
something
very
hazy
,
and
you
are
saying
that
the
minister
may
provide
you
with
some
direction
.
{sent}
``
you
shall
do
this
''
,
and
the
employer
does
not
know
what
he
has
to
do
,
and
the
minister
is
saying
``
well
,
i
may
give
you
some
guidelines
.
''
{sent}
the
reason
i
want
to
ask
the
question
is
that
he
knows
,
as
i
do
,
that
we
tried
to
increase
the
fine
to
$
500,000
to
make
it
half
a
million
bucks
--
something
really
meaningful
.
{sent}
fifty
thousand
dollars
to
some
employers
,
which
he
knows
very
well
,
will
not
make
a
damn
bit
of
difference
.
{sent}
if
i
am
caught
,
i
will
pay
the
$
50,000
because
it
is
cheaper
to
pay
$
50,000
than
to
put
half
a
million
dollars
into
repairing
the
building
,
making
it
accessible
for
egress
and
ingress
.
{sent}
what
does
the
hon.
member
think
about
that
?
{sent}
mr.
baker
:
in
clause
7
under
discussion
,
it
is
an
employer
who
fails
to
comply
with
clause
6
.
{sent}
if
you
look
at
clause
6
and
then
you
go
back
to
clause
4
,
most
employers
will
not
know
what
they
are
being
asked
to
do
.
{sent}
however
,
i
do
not
fault
the
drafters
of
the
legislation
.
{sent}
we
have
some
very
impressive
drafters
in
this
country
,
an
expert
group
of
people
.
{sent}
the
problem
is
the
material
you
give
to
a
draftsman
;
that
is
what
determines
the
accuracy
of
the
legislation
.
{sent}
we
should
not
blame
these
errors
on
the
drafters
of
the
legislation
.
{sent}
they
are
very
expert
people
.
{sent}
it
is
the
government
of
canada
that
does
not
know
what
it
is
doing
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
member
for
yorkton-melville
(
mr.
nystrom
)
has
a
very
short
question
or
comment
?
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
the
member
has
talked
very
eloquently
about
employment
equity
.
{sent}
all
i
want
to
know
is
why
the
liberal
party
did
not
introduce
the
concept
of
employment
equity
when
it
forward
the
government
?
{sent}
the
bill
before
the
house
is
totally
deficient
.
{sent}
it
should
have
been
the
logical
conclusion
to
what
was
set
before
and
done
by
the
previous
government
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
knows
that
the
liberal
party
has
stood
by
people
as
far
as
employment
equity
is
concerned
.
{sent}
it
is
this
government
which
has
not
fulfilled
its
mandate
.
{sent}
adjournment
debate
{sent}
proceedings
on
adjournment
motion
{sent}
a
motion
to
adjourn
the
house
under
standing
order
66
deemed
to
have
been
moved
.
{sent}
agriculture
--
funding
of
coloured
dairy
cattle
research
.
{sent}
(
b
)
approval
of
product
{sent}
it
was
in
relation
to
whether
holstein
cattle
were
black
and
white
or
red
and
white
.
{sent}
i
asked
why
the
minister
was
trying
to
put
these
dreamstreet
people
,
the
rich
investors
from
wall
street
,
on
easy
street
with
$
10
million
of
canadian
taxpayers'
money
.
{sent}
the
minister
then
completely
welched
on
the
matter
and
said
that
he
had
not
approved
it
,
that
it
was
approved
by
the
minister
of
national
revenue
(
mr.
mackay
)
.
{sent}
he
was
obviously
trying
to
put
the
responsibility
on
holstein
canada
,
but
it
seems
to
me
that
it
is
not
its
responsibility
.
{sent}
it
is
the
responsibility
of
the
government
to
decide
whether
the
project
goes
forward
and
$
10
million
of
the
taxpayers'
money
is
used
for
essentially
a
laundering
process
to
recycle
canadian
taxpayers'
money
to
the
united
states
.
{sent}
farmers
are
very
upset
and
concerned
about
this
.
{sent}
they
say
that
if
the
government
has
this
kind
of
money
to
do
unnecessary
research
,
why
does
it
not
have
adequate
research
funds
to
do
worth-while
projects
for
agriculture
.
{sent}
we
ask
ourselves
why
the
minister
put
pressure
on
the
department
of
national
revenue
to
approve
this
project
.
{sent}
we
heard
it
was
turned
down
three
or
four
times
.
{sent}
or
was
it
the
prime
minister
's
office
which
put
the
pressure
on
the
department
of
national
revenue
?
{sent}
who
is
dreamstreet
?
{sent}
there
have
been
a
lot
of
reports
.
{sent}
we
received
one
report
from
a
farmer
who
said
he
had
heard
that
in
1984
,
it
was
a
company
which
was
some
$
11
million
in
debt
in
the
united
states
and
it
had
to
reorganize
.
{sent}
there
is
a
story
in
the
march
edition
of
the
holstein-friesian
world
of
a
sale
at
hyperian
farms
in
new
york
state
where
some
37
lots
of
cattle
were
sold
for
$
9
million
.
{sent}
one
animal
actually
sold
for
$
1.5
million
.
{sent}
however
,
when
it
was
checked
a
month
later
,
it
was
found
no
money
had
ever
changed
hands
.
{sent}
no
pedigrees
were
ever
exchanged
.
{sent}
what
kind
of
a
scam
was
going
on
there
as
reported
in
the
holstein-fresian
world
?
{sent}
what
kind
of
scam
is
going
on
in
canada
today
?
{sent}
in
the
end
,
i
think
we
will
find
out
that
this
is
the
largest
hoax
which
has
even
been
perpetrated
on
the
dairy
industry
in
canada
,
and
on
the
holstein-friesian
association
.
{sent}
it
seems
that
the
minister
is
sitting
on
his
hands
and
making
no
decisions
.
{sent}
he
is
doing
nothing
to
stop
this
scam
.
{sent}
he
should
either
stop
it
immediately
or
,
if
he
does
not
have
the
courage
,
then
he
should
set
up
a
commission
of
inquiry
to
look
into
the
matter
.
{sent}
the
whole
idea
of
it
really
smells
.
{sent}
canadian
dairymen
are
upset
.
{sent}
they
want
the
government
to
take
action
.
{sent}
they
do
not
want
the
minister
of
agriculture
sitting
on
his
hands
and
letting
this
thing
continue
on
in
the
way
it
has
been
going
.
{sent}
i
wish
to
set
the
record
straight
on
two
particular
points
.
{sent}
first
,
in
looking
for
the
perpetrator
of
the
hoax
,
i
can
tell
the
hon.
member
that
he
is
now
practising
law
in
montreal
.
{sent}
he
is
the
former
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
his
name
is
marc
lalonde
.
{sent}
i
say
this
because
the
scientific
tax
credit
was
brought
in
under
the
previous
liberal
government
,
of
which
the
hon.
member
was
a
member
.
{sent}
so
if
we
are
looking
for
the
perpetrator
,
we
now
know
where
to
find
him
.
{sent}
there
is
no
question
about
it
.
{sent}
the
facts
are
very
clear
.
{sent}
neither
the
minister
nor
any
official
in
the
department
of
agriculture
recommended
or
approved
any
such
project
.
{sent}
a
tax
credit
for
this
project
was
approved
under
a
revenue
canada
program
introduced
by
the
previous
liberal
government
,
namely
,
the
scientific
research
tax
credit
.
{sent}
that
was
a
boondoggle
of
magnificent
proportions
perpetrated
by
the
former
government
.
{sent}
the
dreamstreet
project
met
the
old
program
criteria
.
{sent}
since
laws
cannot
be
passed
retroactively
,
revenue
canada
ruled
that
it
qualified
for
tax
benefits
.
{sent}
mr.
foster
:
it
was
approved
in
december
of
1985
and
you
know
it
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
the
hon.
member
for
algoma
(
mr.
foster
)
says
that
the
research
project
is
``
phoney
''
.
{sent}
we
are
used
to
hearing
better
language
from
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
i
suppose
in
his
embarrassment
with
respect
to
how
this
program
was
initiated
,
he
has
had
to
resort
to
that
type
of
language
.
{sent}
due
to
the
efforts
of
the
present
minister
of
agriculture
,
the
company
has
indicated
a
willingness
to
be
flexible
with
its
plans
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
officials
from
agriculture
canada
attended
a
meeting
on
april
17
involving
the
company
,
representatives
of
the
holstein
association
and
the
university
of
guelph
.
{sent}
progress
is
being
made
along
these
lines
to
bring
this
research
in
line
with
the
over-all
research
of
agriculture
canada
.
{sent}
i
point
out
that
it
is
especially
important
to
my
riding
of
simcoe
north
.
{sent}
almost
half
of
dairy
research
expenditures
have
been
paid
for
by
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
this
is
why
we
are
looking
to
expand
this
research
by
involving
the
private
sector
to
a
greater
extent
.
{sent}
we
are
presently
co-operating
with
the
holstein
association
,
semex
canada
and
the
canadian
association
of
animal
breeders
,
which
are
all
heavily
involved
in
this
very
important
dairy
research
.
{sent}
penitentiaries
--
projected
construction
of
prison
in
manicouagan
constituency
{sent}
hon.
bob
kaplan
(
york
centre
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
a
few
days
ago
i
raised
the
question
of
whether
or
not
it
was
proper
for
the
government
of
canada
to
be
building
a
penitentiary
in
the
prime
minister
's
riding
.
{sent}
that
is
the
subject
i
wish
to
raise
this
evening
.
{sent}
i
have
actually
raised
this
subject
in
the
house
of
commons
twice
,
and
i
wish
to
refer
to
both
times
.
{sent}
i
raised
it
once
with
the
minister
of
justice
(
mr.
crosbie
)
and
once
with
the
solicitor
general
(
mr.
beatty
)
.
{sent}
i
also
asked
the
solicitor
general
what
was
the
justification
for
building
that
penitentiary
at
the
same
time
as
the
committee
was
being
asked
in
good
faith
to
look
at
a
variety
of
options
,
including
that
of
not
proceeding
with
the
penitentiary
.
{sent}
they
are
saying
they
are
not
able
to
provide
adequate
street
supervision
for
offenders
.
{sent}
the
solicitor
general
wants
us
to
take
him
as
an
enlightened
correctional
authority
.
{sent}
he
recognizes
that
street
supervision
in
a
proper
case
is
a
lot
beter
than
incarceration
.
{sent}
street
supervision
is
more
rehabilitative
.
{sent}
all
these
problems
are
dealt
with
much
more
effectively
under
street
supervision
than
behind
bars
.
{sent}
of
course
,
there
is
a
residue
of
offenders
from
whom
street
supervision
does
not
provide
the
public
with
enough
protection
who
should
be
behind
bars
.
{sent}
there
is
no
doubt
,
however
,
that
the
solicitor
general
wants
canadians
to
believe
that
he
thinks
effective
street
supervision
is
a
good
alternative
.
{sent}
not
only
is
it
more
effective
from
the
point
of
view
of
rehabilitation
,
but
it
is
a
lot
cheaper
.
{sent}
we
would
have
expected
a
rational
government
to
make
sure
that
the
parole
system
works
well
and
that
it
is
the
alternative
that
is
being
presented
to
the
canadian
people
.
{sent}
however
,
we
are
seeing
perhaps
the
most
expensive
prison
in
the
history
of
canada
being
built
right
in
the
middle
of
the
prime
minister
's
riding
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
that
is
a
defensible
position
,
particularly
when
the
government
is
inviting
us
to
take
seriously
the
things
the
nielsen
task
force
has
recommended
to
us
and
,
in
particular
,
the
option
of
not
building
the
penitentiary
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
this
is
the
correct
decision
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
add
that
i
had
a
chance
to
discuss
this
matter
further
with
the
solicitor
general
at
the
justice
and
solicitor
general
committee
.
{sent}
in
that
committee
,
he
said
that
this
penitentiary
was
one
that
i
had
in
effect
approved
while
i
was
solicitor
general
.
{sent}
he
proved
that
by
showing
that
i
had
in
the
past
endorsed
an
extension
to
drummond
penitentiary
.
{sent}
he
asked
me
how
i
felt
about
that
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
confess
that
i
thought
that
that
extension
to
drummond
had
actually
been
built
.
{sent}
i
thought
that
we
were
talking
about
a
further
addition
of
cells
in
the
quebec
region
.
{sent}
now
i
have
to
react
and
ask
the
government
to
react
to
that
challenge
.
{sent}
i
do
so
just
by
looking
at
the
bottom
line
.
{sent}
however
one
looks
at
it
,
the
penitentiary
in
the
riding
of
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
has
to
be
looked
at
as
nothing
but
politics
and
something
very
unnecessary
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
you
will
be
interested
in
the
prediction
which
i
am
about
to
make
in
my
remaining
minute
.
{sent}
if
more
prison
cells
have
to
be
built
,
they
should
be
built
in
western
canada
.
{sent}
people
in
every
part
of
the
country
like
to
believe
that
there
are
no
criminals
from
their
part
of
the
country
.
{sent}
however
,
i
am
afraid
that
the
only
way
these
cells
in
quebec
will
be
properly
used
will
be
by
moving
inmates
from
western
canada
for
incarceration
in
the
province
of
quebec
.
{sent}
there
will
be
language
problems
and
the
unfairness
of
inmates
not
being
close
to
their
families
or
the
communities
to
which
they
will
return
upon
release
.
{sent}
it
is
a
mistake
and
it
is
a
misallocation
of
resources
.
{sent}
i
put
it
to
the
minister
's
mouthpiece
tonight
,
whoever
it
will
be
,
to
reverse
this
terrible
decision
and
to
countermand
the
decision
made
by
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
we
just
cannot
accept
the
hon.
member
's
challenge
.
{sent}
further
,
i
encourage
him
to
request
his
colleagues
in
the
opposition
and
in
the
senate
to
pass
bill
c-67
and
bill
c-68
,
and
a
lot
of
his
wishes
will
be
accomplished
.
{sent}
he
would
certainly
be
working
in
a
positive
manner
if
he
worked
in
that
direction
.
{sent}
as
the
hon.
member
will
recall
,
the
construction
of
a
protective
custody
facility
in
quebec
was
originally
announced
on
his
behalf
,
as
the
then
solicitor
general
,
in
april
,
1984
.
{sent}
the
need
for
protective
custody
accommodation
still
exists
,
but
the
location
for
the
new
institution
has
been
changed
in
the
interests
of
socio-economic
development
,
to
alleviate
severely
distressed
conditions
in
the
port
cartier
area
.
{sent}
the
institution
at
port
cartier
will
meet
the
accommodation
needs
for
protective
custody
inmates
in
the
province
of
quebec
.
{sent}
it
is
projected
that
230
cells
will
be
required
by
1993-94
.
{sent}
it
will
replace
the
outdated
protective
facilities
at
laval
institution
.
{sent}
this
institution
,
formerly
called
st.
vincent
de
paul
,
was
opened
in
1873
and
has
been
identified
for
phase-out
since
the
late
1970s
.
{sent}
because
of
its
age
and
structure
,
it
cannot
be
renovated
or
operated
economically
for
a
higher
security
population
at
current
standards
.
{sent}
historically
speaking
,
penitentiaries
have
traditionally
been
built
to
serve
geographical
areas
or
the
needs
of
newly
created
provinces
.
{sent}
springhill
institution
in
springhill
,
nova
scotia
,
is
an
example
in
point
,
as
is
the
area
in
the
miramichi
region
of
new
brunswick
where
the
atlantic
institution
is
nearing
completion
.
{sent}
although
the
location
of
the
new
institution
may
be
considered
as
relatively
remote
from
montreal
,
port
cartier
has
the
necessary
infrastructure
in
place
to
support
the
needs
of
a
penitentiary
,
and
program
delivery
to
inmates
will
not
suffer
because
of
its
location
.
{sent}
however
,
because
of
its
location
,
the
correctional
service
of
canada
will
endeavour
to
facilitate
the
maintenance
of
family
ties
where
possible
.
{sent}
the
new
institution
will
have
significant
and
continuing
beneficial
economic
impact
on
the
community
.
{sent}
of
an
estimated
capital
cost
of
$
68.2
million
,
a
substantial
portion
will
be
spent
on
local
construction
materials
,
goods
and
services
.
{sent}
it
is
projected
that
700
job
years
will
be
created
over
the
1985-88
period
.
{sent}
regulations
--
request
for
clarification
of
task
force
created
to
study
certain
aspects
{sent}
as
you
know
,
in
the
summer
of
1984
our
government
proposed
three
very
important
themes
to
the
canadian
people
.
{sent}
we
also
spoke
of
liberalizing
trade
relations
with
our
main
trading
partner
,
the
united
states
of
america
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
we
also
said
that
our
government
would
respect
and
get
closer
to
the
private
sector
,
the
only
valid
partner
for
a
progressive
government
.
{sent}
we
wanted
to
rid
it
of
the
bureaucratic
burden
of
obsolete
regulations
and
red
tape
.
{sent}
as
early
as
september
18
,
1984
,
only
two
weeks
after
canadians
approved
our
election
program
,
we
announced
that
a
departmental
task
force
had
been
created
to
examine
government
programs
.
{sent}
on
november
16
,
1984
,
a
group
of
responsible
canadians
,
under
the
chairmanship
of
mr.
philip
aspinal
,
formed
the
private
sector
advisory
group
.
{sent}
this
group
,
which
itself
was
to
be
sub-divided
into
nineteen
sub-task
forces
,
examined
over
1,000
government
programs
representing
nearly
$
100
billion
in
expenditures
.
{sent}
on
march
11
,
1986
,
the
deputy
prime
minister
of
canada
(
mr.
nielsen
)
tabled
the
nielsen
report
in
the
house
,
a
report
drafted
by
the
task
force
responsible
for
examining
programs
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
we
know
that
a
sound
and
fair
assessment
of
current
programs
and
legislation
by
the
various
parliamentary
committees
will
make
it
possible
to
recommend
,
to
legislators
and
government
officials
,
ways
of
achieving
substantial
savings
.
{sent}
hon.
members
will
have
to
realize
that
pressure
groups
and
municipal
and
provincial
governments
can
no
longer
afford
to
think
and
regulate
within
a
local
,
mini-regional
or
regional
framework
.
{sent}
today
,
legislators
must
expand
their
thinking
to
fit
the
national
and
often
even
the
global
context
.
{sent}
the
chair
on
which
we
sit
in
our
home
may
come
from
sweden
,
while
we
are
watching
the
news
on
an
american
network
and
our
tv
is
imported
from
north
korea
.
{sent}
hon.
members
will
have
to
assess
the
various
legal
irritants
between
provinces
,
construction
codes
,
parity
committees
and
employment
permits
that
apply
only
province-wide
.
{sent}
we
will
have
to
review
our
labour
laws
,
transport
legislation
,
and
the
regulations
of
various
departments
such
as
fisheries
,
agriculture
and
environment
,
including
areas
such
as
food
.
{sent}
when
talking
about
the
province
of
quebec
we
will
have
to
consider
the
fact
those
taxpayers
have
to
file
two
returns
,
one
with
quebec
city
and
one
with
ottawa
.
{sent}
we
will
have
to
take
a
second
look
at
duplication
in
legislation
and
policies
concerning
the
development
of
our
natural
resources
and
matters
related
to
northern
regions
.
{sent}
we
will
have
to
put
an
end
to
overlapping
foreign
programs
and
duplication
in
regional
industry
assistance
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
we
will
have
to
urge
all
canadian
men
and
women
to
realize
that
we
can
no
longer
live
as
if
we
were
not
part
of
the
whole
world
.
{sent}
manufacturers
had
to
face
this
fact
,
federal
and
provincial
legislators
must
now
follow
suit
,
and
unions
will
no
longer
be
able
to
ignore
this
timely
,
universal
and
urgent
truth
.
{sent}
on
february
13
,
the
deputy
prime
minister
(
mr.
nielsen
)
rose
in
the
house
and
announced
the
first
ever
federal
regulatory
policy
.
{sent}
our
regulatory
policy
was
developed
from
the
work
done
in
this
area
by
the
task
force
on
program
review
.
{sent}
in
its
report
,
the
study
team
provided
a
three-part
diagnosis
of
canada
's
regulatory
situation
.
{sent}
it
pointed
out
that
the
cumulative
effect
of
regulation
at
the
three
levels
of
government
constitutes
an
enormous
impediment
to
economic
growth
,
initiatives
,
enterprise
,
and
personal
freedom
in
canada
.
{sent}
it
went
on
to
say
that
elected
representatives
do
not
have
adequate
control
over
regulation
and
the
regulatory
system
.
{sent}
finally
,
it
concluded
this
indictment
by
indicating
that
the
public
has
too
little
access
to
and
involvement
in
the
development
and
review
of
regulation
.
{sent}
our
strategy
is
designed
to
respond
to
the
problems
identified
by
the
task
force
.
{sent}
the
government
house
leader
has
assumed
the
additional
role
of
minister
responsible
for
regulatory
affairs
.
{sent}
in
march
of
this
year
he
provided
details
of
43
separate
regulatory
program
initiatives
currently
being
undertaken
by
the
government
.
{sent}
work
is
already
underway
on
these
reforms
and
will
lead
to
far-ranging
practical
improvements
in
a
broad
cross-section
of
federal
regulatory
programs
.
{sent}
at
the
same
time
,
the
minister
announced
a
new
citizens
code
of
regulatory
fairness
.
{sent}
this
code
will
provide
a
yardstick
against
which
the
administrative
performance
of
the
government
can
be
measured
.
{sent}
the
member
for
levis
has
expressed
particular
interest
in
the
area
of
federal-provincial
co-operation
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
motion
to
adjourn
the
house
is
now
deemed
to
have
been
adopted
.
{sent}
accordingly
this
house
stands
adjourned
until
tomorrow
at
11
a.m.
,
pursuant
to
standing
order
3(1)
.
{sent}
the
house
adjourned
at
6.29
p.m.
{sent}
tabling
of
documents
{sent}
house
of
commons
{sent}
tuesday
,
april
22
,
1986
{sent}
the
house
met
at
11
a.m.
{sent}
routine
proceedings
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
government
response
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
restoration
of
twice
daily
mail
delivery
--
florence
,
n.s.
{sent}
assessment
of
cn
maintenance
facilities
--
moncton
shops
{sent}
mr.
dennis
h.
cochrane
(
moncton
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
once
again
i
have
the
honour
and
privilege
to
present
a
petition
which
has
been
duly
certified
by
the
clerk
of
petitions
.
{sent}
it
is
signed
by
residents
of
southeastern
new
brunswick
and
expresses
their
concern
with
regard
to
the
canadian
national
shops
in
moncton
and
the
effect
that
the
current
assessment
being
conducted
by
cn
may
have
upon
that
facility
.
{sent}
there
is
a
group
in
town
today
which
is
also
in
support
of
this
petition
.
{sent}
i
am
pleased
to
present
the
petition
to
the
house
at
this
time
.
{sent}
motions
{sent}
mr.
kaplan
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
had
some
discussion
with
members
opposite
and
one
of
the
reports
which
follows
the
one
on
which
i
would
like
to
move
concurrence
today
is
urgent
.
{sent}
therefore
,
i
am
prepared
,
if
your
honour
would
so
allow
,
to
have
the
motion
precede
my
own
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
is
seeking
the
unanimous
consent
of
the
house
to
stand
his
motion
for
the
moment
.
{sent}
the
chair
accepts
that
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
ontario
(
mr.
fennell
)
.
{sent}
striking
committee
{sent}
concurrence
in
thirtieth
report
of
standing
committee
{sent}
mr.
scott
fennell
(
ontario
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
move
that
the
thirtieth
report
of
the
striking
committee
tabled
in
the
house
on
april
18
be
concurred
in
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
house
has
heard
the
terms
of
the
motion
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
motion
agreed
to
.
{sent}
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
{sent}
concurrence
in
sixth
report
of
standing
committee
{sent}
as
joint
chairman
of
the
standing
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
,
i
am
pleased
to
ask
for
the
concurrence
of
this
report
of
the
committee
.
{sent}
in
her
reply
the
minister
stated
that
the
report
of
the
joint
committee
was
:
{sent}
--
based
on
misleading
and
inaccurate
analyses
of
the
situation
.
{sent}
finally
,
the
minister
questioned
the
correctness
of
the
committee
's
conclusion
that
some
homeowners
were
unfairly
treated
.
{sent}
as
to
the
last
point
,
i
believe
that
the
house
will
be
the
judge
of
the
correctness
of
the
report
.
{sent}
concerning
the
other
two
matters
,
i
point
out
to
the
minister
that
the
only
announcement
made
on
november
8
was
that
the
canadian
home
insulation
program
would
gradually
be
phased
out
.
{sent}
this
was
a
budgetary
decision
of
the
government
with
which
the
report
does
not
take
issue
.
{sent}
i
have
in
hand
the
press
release
issued
by
the
minister
announcing
that
starting
on
january
1
,
1985
,
until
termination
:
{sent}
the
chip
contribution
to
eligible
costs
will
be
reduced
from
60
per
cent
to
33-1/3
per
cent
.
{sent}
the
press
release
,
which
is
the
one
mentioned
in
our
sixth
report
,
goes
on
to
state
:
{sent}
as
for
the
report
being
based
on
inaccurate
or
misleading
information
,
i
think
this
is
an
assertion
upon
which
the
minister
should
reflect
.
{sent}
it
is
a
rather
serious
matter
to
charge
a
committee
of
the
house
with
misleading
members
of
parliament
.
{sent}
in
any
event
,
the
factual
information
contained
in
the
committee
's
report
comes
from
the
minister
's
own
officials
and
press
releases
.
{sent}
if
our
committee
has
been
misled
by
these
,
it
is
up
to
the
minister
to
explain
.
{sent}
i
would
now
like
to
turn
to
the
sixth
report
of
the
joint
committee
.
{sent}
i
want
to
emphasize
that
this
is
a
unanimous
report
of
a
committee
on
which
members
of
all
parties
and
both
houses
are
represented
.
{sent}
it
is
not
a
partisan
report
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
explain
the
factual
situations
in
terms
of
the
report
.
{sent}
until
january
18
,
1985
,
applicants
under
the
canadian
home
insulation
program
were
entitled
to
a
payment
representing
60
per
cent
of
the
cost
of
insulating
a
family
housing
unit
or
residential
building
.
{sent}
as
part
of
the
phasing
out
of
the
program
,
which
was
a
policy
of
the
new
government
,
it
was
decided
to
reduce
the
level
of
contributions
from
60
per
cent
to
33-1/3
per
cent
of
insulating
costs
.
{sent}
lest
the
minister
misunderstand
the
purpose
of
our
report
,
permit
me
to
emphasize
that
these
policy
decisions
are
not
objected
to
as
such
by
the
committee
.
{sent}
the
committee
recognizes
that
these
are
decisions
which
are
for
the
government
and
its
ministers
to
make
.
{sent}
however
,
the
decisions
that
were
announced
on
november
16
,
1984
,
were
not
reflected
in
the
regulations
governing
the
payment
of
chip
grants
until
some
three
months
later
;
that
is
,
on
january
17
,
1985
.
{sent}
it
is
to
these
amendments
that
the
joint
committee
objects
.
{sent}
the
joint
committee
had
before
it
two
regulatory
amendments
which
were
made
on
january
17
,
1985
,
but
which
required
chip
applicants
to
have
registered
their
purchase
commitments
17
days
before
the
date
of
the
regulations
as
a
legal
condition
of
obtaining
the
higher
contribution
.
{sent}
in
effect
,
these
amendments
imposed
a
retroactive
requirement
on
home
owners
.
{sent}
members
of
the
house
will
agree
that
retroactive
regulations
are
undesirable
.
{sent}
not
only
are
they
undesirable
and
offensive
but
by
clear
precedent
they
are
also
illegal
unless
they
are
sanctioned
clearly
by
parliament
.
{sent}
the
relevant
legislation
did
not
give
any
authority
to
make
retroactive
regulations
.
{sent}
it
is
an
established
principle
of
law
that
subordinate
laws
made
by
the
executive
may
not
have
a
retroactive
application
unless
this
is
expressly
authorized
by
the
statutes
pursuant
to
which
they
are
made
.
{sent}
the
department
took
the
position
in
defence
of
what
it
had
done
that
most
applicants
were
aware
before
december
31
that
they
should
register
a
commitment
.
{sent}
the
only
place
where
such
a
requirement
was
expressed
,
however
,
was
in
the
minister
's
press
release
.
{sent}
a
press
release
is
not
a
legal
instrument
.
{sent}
as
the
committee
said
in
its
report
:
{sent}
citizens
have
a
right
to
rely
exclusively
on
the
laws
adopted
by
parliament
and
its
delegates
and
should
not
be
made
to
govern
their
conduct
and
affairs
in
accordance
with
press
releases
and
other
public
announcements
.
{sent}
this
,
mr.
speaker
,
is
what
the
report
of
the
joint
committee
is
all
about
.
{sent}
when
our
committee
sought
an
explanation
from
the
deputy
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
,
it
was
assured
in
a
letter
received
from
the
deputy
minister
the
following
:
{sent}
the
83,950
signed
commitments
which
were
registered
with
chip
by
december
31st
,
1984
,
are
evidence
that
the
minister
's
announcement
was
effectively
communicated
to
the
public
.
{sent}
i
want
to
reiterate
that
citizens
cannot
,
in
a
society
founded
on
the
rule
of
law
,
be
expected
to
obey
announcements
that
have
no
legal
force
whatsoever
.
{sent}
in
committee
,
when
we
asked
the
representative
of
the
department
how
many
applicants
had
missed
the
deadline
of
december
31
,
1984
,
we
were
informed
of
the
following
:
{sent}
unfortunately
,
statistics
were
not
kept
on
the
number
of
registrations
that
were
rejected
.
{sent}
this
is
indeed
unfortunate
.
{sent}
you
will
agree
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
an
injustice
done
to
a
few
is
just
as
serious
as
an
injustice
done
to
the
many
.
{sent}
these
applicants
were
never
even
given
the
chance
to
preserve
their
entitlement
to
the
higher
rate
of
contribution
.
{sent}
by
the
time
the
regulations
were
amended
,
it
was
too
late
.
{sent}
this
problem
is
entirely
the
result
of
the
executive
's
failure
to
amend
the
regulations
in
good
time
.
{sent}
if
the
minister
's
officials
had
time
to
draft
a
series
of
press
releases
as
early
as
november
,
1984
,
surely
they
had
enough
time
to
draft
the
appropriate
amendments
to
the
regulations
.
{sent}
these
amendments
could
then
have
been
adopted
before
december
31
so
as
to
give
the
applicants
adequate
notice
of
the
new
requirements
.
{sent}
i
know
that
i
did
in
my
office
and
i
know
that
other
members
of
the
committee
did
.
{sent}
i
suggest
that
all
members
of
parliament
did
.
{sent}
we
are
talking
about
something
that
is
very
concrete
and
real
to
our
constituents
.
{sent}
this
is
not
the
first
occasion
on
which
the
committee
has
dealt
with
a
situation
of
this
kind
.
{sent}
i
express
the
hope
that
this
is
a
principle
every
parliamentarian
,
of
whichever
party
,
can
agree
to
and
support
.
{sent}
it
is
a
principle
which
is
afforded
by
the
government
in
its
regulatory
reform
policy
.
{sent}
it
is
a
principle
that
must
be
maintained
by
all
of
us
as
legislators
and
representatives
of
the
people
.
{sent}
regulations
generally
impact
on
the
daily
lives
of
canadians
to
a
far
greater
degree
than
the
statutes
pursuant
to
which
they
are
made
.
{sent}
for
the
making
of
laws
,
we
must
account
to
the
people
.
{sent}
when
we
delegate
our
legislative
authority
to
the
executive
,
we
have
a
duty
to
hold
it
accountable
for
its
exercise
of
authority
.
{sent}
the
principles
outlined
in
the
sixth
report
of
the
joint
committee
deserve
the
support
of
all
members
of
the
house
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
ian
waddell
(
vancouver
--
kingsway
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
behalf
of
the
new
democratic
party
to
take
part
in
this
debate
.
{sent}
i
consider
it
to
be
a
non-partisan
debate
,
as
far
as
that
is
possible
in
the
house
,
because
the
issues
are
non-partisan
issues
.
{sent}
i
congratulate
the
hon.
member
for
york
cente
(
mr.
kaplan
)
.
{sent}
he
is
a
former
minister
,
a
senior
member
of
the
house
,
and
a
co-chairman
of
the
committee
.
{sent}
i
am
a
new
member
of
the
standing
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
.
{sent}
i
will
try
to
explain
in
a
more
simple
way
to
canadians
how
the
committee
works
.
{sent}
the
committee
considers
all
regulations
and
statutory
instruments
.
{sent}
parliament
could
not
include
all
that
in
one
act
of
parliament
.
{sent}
it
would
be
a
huge
act
of
parliament
,
and
we
could
not
anticipate
what
would
happen
in
different
situations
.
{sent}
therefore
,
parliament
passes
a
general
law
making
provisions
for
wharfs
,
for
moneys
,
for
ways
in
which
they
will
be
controlled
,
for
personnel
and
so
on
.
{sent}
following
that
,
parliament
says
the
authority
,
the
bureaucracy
,
the
governor
in
council
,
or
cabinet
can
pass
a
number
of
regulations
dealing
with
wharfs
.
{sent}
cabinet
has
to
sign
all
the
regulations
and
so
on
.
{sent}
since
there
are
thousands
and
thousands
of
them
,
i
suspect
that
they
cannot
look
at
every
one
of
them
,
even
as
good
intentioned
as
cabinet
ministers
may
be
.
{sent}
sometimes
unjust
regulations
go
by
.
{sent}
sometimes
people
are
charged
fees
when
there
is
no
authority
for
it
.
{sent}
sometimes
people
cannot
tie
up
their
boats
when
there
is
no
authority
for
it
.
{sent}
perhaps
i
am
over-simplifying
the
matter
,
but
that
is
the
way
it
works
.
{sent}
perhaps
the
department
has
issued
a
regulation
which
does
not
really
fit
in
with
the
power
in
the
act
.
{sent}
the
committee
has
many
standards
when
it
looks
at
orders
in
council
,
but
i
will
not
go
through
all
of
them
.
{sent}
there
are
two
lawyers
who
work
with
the
committee
and
go
through
all
the
statutory
regulations
.
{sent}
when
the
committee
writes
under
the
joint
signature
of
a
conservative
senator
,
a
liberal
mp
,
and
a
conservative
mp
,
we
start
seeing
changes
in
the
department
.
{sent}
this
is
all
``
behind
the
scenes
''
work
in
parliament
,
but
it
is
very
important
work
because
it
ensures
that
the
rule
of
law
and
citizens'
rights
are
respected
.
{sent}
i
think
everyone
in
the
house
would
agree
with
that
.
{sent}
in
my
experience
with
the
committee
,
we
have
dealt
with
transportation
fees
and
rates
and
agricultural
matters
.
{sent}
the
committee
has
been
involved
in
a
host
of
things
.
{sent}
as
the
hon.
member
for
york
centre
and
as
the
committee
indicated
,
citizens
have
the
right
to
rely
exclusively
upon
the
laws
adopted
by
the
parliament
of
canada
.
{sent}
the
particular
issue
before
the
house
now
is
a
very
interesting
one
.
{sent}
the
government
brought
in
the
program
known
as
chip
.
{sent}
many
canadians
know
about
it
.
{sent}
i
believe
the
government
has
spent
over
$
700
million
under
this
program
since
1977
.
{sent}
it
was
a
very
successful
program
.
{sent}
the
price
of
oil
was
rising
and
it
was
deemed
appropriate
that
canadians
,
who
are
the
biggest
energy
users
per
capita
in
the
world
,
should
start
conserving
.
{sent}
the
government
indicated
that
it
would
help
those
persons
who
insulated
their
homes
,
because
canadian
houses
were
notoriously
poorly
insulated
,
by
giving
them
a
grant
of
up
to
60
per
cent
.
{sent}
in
my
own
case
,
i
think
it
was
before
1979
that
i
took
advantage
of
the
program
.
{sent}
i
fixed
up
my
house
,
as
did
many
other
canadians
.
{sent}
it
was
a
good
deal
.
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
where
is
your
home
?
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
in
vancouver
.
{sent}
it
was
a
good
deal
.
{sent}
i
think
i
got
$
500
from
the
government
,
and
i
paid
the
rest
,
to
have
my
house
insulated
so
that
i
would
use
less
energy
.
{sent}
the
government
decided
--
and
some
of
us
in
the
house
disagreed
--
to
phase
out
some
conservation
programs
such
as
chip
and
the
off-oil
program
.
{sent}
the
off-oil
program
gave
grants
to
people
to
go
from
oil
,
which
is
a
dramatically
depleting
resource
in
canada
,
to
natural
gas
of
which
canada
has
a
lot
.
{sent}
that
program
and
chip
were
to
be
ended
;
they
were
to
be
phased
out
.
{sent}
the
government
indicated
that
after
december
31
,
1984
,
it
would
reduce
the
60
per
cent
grant
to
33-1/3
per
cent
.
{sent}
that
is
what
the
government
intended
to
do
,
but
it
turned
around
and
did
it
by
press
release
.
{sent}
i
know
a
few
lawyers
who
spend
their
evenings
reading
the
canada
gazette
,
but
few
canadians
do
so
.
{sent}
perhaps
you
do
,
mr.
speaker
,
because
you
are
always
on
the
ball
.
{sent}
nevertheless
,
that
is
the
rule
of
law
in
canada
.
{sent}
orders
in
council
must
be
gazetted
before
they
come
into
force
.
{sent}
the
government
only
wanted
applicants
to
be
reimbursed
for
60
per
cent
of
their
insulation
costs
until
december
31
,
1984
,
and
then
for
33-1/3
per
cent
thereafter
.
{sent}
however
,
the
regulation
was
not
gazetted
until
january
18
,
1985
.
{sent}
in
my
view
those
applicants
were
legally
entitled
to
the
60
per
cent
.
{sent}
i
think
the
case
was
set
out
beyond
any
shadow
of
a
doubt
by
the
hon.
member
who
last
spoke
.
{sent}
we
will
hear
from
the
government
and
the
committee
.
{sent}
the
department
says
there
was
no
record
kept
of
those
rejected
registrations
,
and
we
do
not
know
how
many
were
wrongly
dealt
with
.
{sent}
i
want
to
give
the
government
notice
that
i
will
be
filing
an
application
under
the
freedom
of
information
act
to
try
to
find
out
whether
the
department
has
been
altogether
truthful
with
us
.
{sent}
quite
frankly
,
i
do
not
believe
the
department
.
{sent}
i
think
there
are
records
,
and
i
think
we
should
a
look
into
the
matter
.
{sent}
the
committee
says
on
page
2
of
its
report
that
:
{sent}
``
unfortunately
,
statistics
were
not
kept
on
the
number
of
registrations
that
were
rejected
.
''
{sent}
that
is
what
the
department
told
the
committee
.
{sent}
i
think
we
have
to
look
at
that
further
and
i
will
ask
that
question
of
the
government
spokesperson
today
in
the
debate
.
{sent}
there
is
a
general
presumption
in
law
that
legislation
is
not
retroactive
,
except
in
budgetary
cases
.
{sent}
in
the
budget
you
can
announce
what
you
are
going
to
do
and
then
you
enact
the
legislation
.
{sent}
it
is
legal
for
parliament
to
enact
legislation
that
is
retroactive
,
although
there
is
some
problem
in
criminal
matters
.
{sent}
generally
,
we
do
not
like
enacting
retroactive
law
in
criminal
matters
because
someone
could
do
something
which
did
not
seem
illegal
when
he
or
she
did
it
.
{sent}
the
government
can
clearly
enact
retroactive
legislation
,
but
that
is
not
what
happened
in
this
case
.
{sent}
people
should
not
be
misled
by
the
government
if
it
tries
to
say
otherwise
and
i
hope
the
government
will
not
try
to
say
that
.
{sent}
it
is
clear
from
common
law
that
regulations
may
not
be
made
retroactively
unless
the
enabling
legislation
specifically
permits
this
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
if
we
pass
the
law
and
say
the
regulations
under
the
law
can
be
made
retroactive
,
that
is
fine
.
{sent}
i
do
not
think
in
this
case
there
was
any
legislation
passed
that
enabled
regulations
to
be
passed
retroactively
.
{sent}
if
there
was
,
i
challenge
the
government
to
show
us
.
{sent}
therefore
,
the
regulations
are
ultra
vires
because
there
was
no
authority
for
them
to
be
made
retroactively
.
{sent}
after
regulations
are
gazetted
they
are
legal
.
{sent}
but
in
the
period
between
december
31
to
january
18
there
was
no
law
on
the
books
to
allow
the
government
to
send
back
those
applications
.
{sent}
the
government
has
to
act
according
to
the
law
.
{sent}
it
should
have
taken
the
applications
for
the
full
60
per
cent
.
{sent}
in
order
for
the
government
to
have
proceeded
legally
,
the
regulation
would
have
had
to
be
gazetted
on
decemebr
31
,
1984
.
{sent}
and
i
feel
that
these
regulations
were
neither
legal
nor
fair
in
covering
the
period
from
december
31
,
1984
to
january
18
,
1985
.
{sent}
despite
the
fact
that
the
press
release
was
issued
,
the
public
is
deemed
aware
of
a
regulation
only
after
the
time
it
is
published
in
the
canada
gazette
.
{sent}
as
i
said
,
mr.
speaker
,
we
do
not
stay
up
all
night
reading
the
gazette
but
this
is
the
legal
jurisprudence
of
canada
,
the
law
of
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
not
fair
not
to
give
the
public
proper
notice
that
their
rights
are
being
affected
.
{sent}
december
31
was
not
early
enough
.
{sent}
there
should
have
been
earlier
notice
,
that
is
,
publication
in
the
canada
gazette
.
{sent}
that
should
have
been
done
one
month
in
advance
.
{sent}
there
are
two
other
points
.
{sent}
one
deals
with
conservation
.
{sent}
conservation
is
a
very
important
area
for
canadians
.
{sent}
while
oil
prices
are
going
down
,
let
us
not
forget
that
we
should
continue
with
conservation
.
{sent}
that
is
why
this
particular
statute
is
very
important
.
{sent}
second
,
the
jurisdiction
,
the
scope
of
this
committee
,
has
been
expanded
.
{sent}
the
standing
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
statutory
instruments
will
now
be
able
to
bring
one
regulation
to
this
parliament
under
the
new
rules
and
this
parliament
will
have
the
power
to
throw
out
the
regulation
.
{sent}
that
is
an
important
power
.
{sent}
it
is
indicative
of
a
non-partisan
attitude
in
all
parts
of
the
house
from
the
conservative
benches
right
through
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
what
is
happening
with
regulations
outside
of
the
statutes
that
are
running
people
's
lives
.
{sent}
i
expressed
the
opinion
that
i
would
like
to
see
even
the
scope
of
the
statutory
and
regulations
committee
expanded
to
include
government
agencies
as
well
as
the
cabinet
.
{sent}
direct
cabinet
regulations
,
the
ones
that
cabinet
just
approve
and
do
not
make
are
not
subject
to
the
scrutiny
of
our
committee
.
{sent}
there
are
a
lot
of
orders
and
regulations
not
covered
.
{sent}
it
is
not
ironic
that
the
department
of
energy
was
caught
in
this
matter
.
{sent}
the
department
has
become
a
touch
arrogant
.
{sent}
it
might
be
because
it
has
had
so
much
legislation
in
the
past
six
years
with
the
national
energy
program
,
then
its
dismantling
.
{sent}
the
department
has
been
used
to
doing
things
very
quickly
.
{sent}
in
this
case
it
did
something
illegally
and
was
caught
by
this
committee
.
{sent}
this
could
happen
to
any
government
department
.
{sent}
they
must
be
more
responsible
in
passing
regulations
.
{sent}
they
will
be
scrutinized
more
by
parliament
.
{sent}
the
feeling
throughout
the
house
is
that
we
want
accountability
and
control
over
regulations
which
are
affecting
people
's
lives
.
{sent}
i
think
that
is
healthy
.
{sent}
it
should
announce
that
in
the
future
it
will
act
differently
.
{sent}
it
should
also
consider
the
matter
of
those
people
who
applied
between
december
31
,
1984
,
and
january
18
,
1985
.
{sent}
by
law
those
people
should
have
received
the
full
grant
of
60
per
cent
rather
than
the
half
grant
of
33
per
cent
.
{sent}
this
is
a
very
important
case
and
i
ask
the
government
to
accept
it
in
the
spirit
in
which
the
committee
brings
it
to
its
attention
.
{sent}
mr.
kaplan
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
my
own
remarks
i
expressed
the
hope
that
the
house
would
support
the
committee
rather
than
the
minister
in
the
up-coming
vote
on
this
matter
.
{sent}
what
would
my
colleague
's
view
be
if
the
house
failed
to
support
the
committee
?
{sent}
how
would
that
affect
his
own
attitude
and
that
of
the
ndp
toward
the
future
work
of
the
committee
?
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
of
course
,
mr.
speaker
,
we
will
continue
to
work
on
the
committee
.
{sent}
in
this
parliament
we
are
trying
to
make
members
independent
to
a
degree
.
{sent}
this
is
not
the
congressional
system
,
but
it
is
a
new
beginning
in
parliament
.
{sent}
i
consider
ged
baldwin
,
a
former
conservative
member
,
to
be
one
of
the
initiators
of
this
trend
which
was
taken
up
by
many
other
conservative
members
.
{sent}
we
,
in
the
house
,
are
striving
for
freedom
of
information
and
freedom
for
mps
to
have
some
say
rather
than
always
being
bound
by
government
discipline
.
{sent}
this
is
the
report
of
an
all-party
committee
and
what
we
are
bringing
to
the
attention
of
the
government
is
fairly
unanswerable
in
law
.
{sent}
this
is
an
occasion
upon
which
the
members
of
the
committee
need
the
support
of
the
house
.
{sent}
there
are
conservative
members
of
the
committee
and
this
is
a
unanimous
report
.
{sent}
i
do
not
say
that
this
is
a
non-partisan
issue
,
but
it
does
involve
the
freedom
of
individual
mps
.
{sent}
let
us
continue
to
move
forward
rather
than
taking
a
step
backward
with
this
particular
vote
.
{sent}
i
ask
conservative
mps
to
vote
with
the
committee
to
accept
the
report
.
{sent}
if
they
do
not
do
that
,
it
will
put
the
conservative
members
who
are
on
the
committee
in
a
very
difficult
position
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
make
a
few
comments
and
ask
the
hon.
member
a
question
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
last
friday
i
asked
the
minister
during
question
period
what
she
intended
to
do
about
this
unanimous
report
of
the
committee
.
{sent}
i
asked
the
question
mainly
because
of
my
concern
that
the
minister
would
make
the
same
mistake
twice
.
{sent}
it
is
my
view
--
{sent}
she
was
referring
to
the
committee
's
report
.
{sent}
--
that
it
has
been
based
on
misleading
and
inaccurate
analyses
of
the
situation
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
insulting
and
even
offensive
when
a
committee
is
told
by
a
minister
of
the
crown
that
it
has
made
a
misleading
and
inaccurate
analysis
of
the
situation
.
{sent}
in
the
first
session
of
the
last
parliament
,
which
lasted
three
years
,
we
adopted
173
statutes
,
but
there
were
4,000
instruments
made
pursuant
to
those
statutory
powers
.
{sent}
what
assurance
do
we
have
as
parliamentarians
that
this
or
other
ministers
will
not
take
this
high-handed
approach
to
regulations
and
operate
by
press
release
?
{sent}
is
the
central
point
of
this
debate
this
morning
not
to
ensure
that
this
minister
or
others
do
not
repeat
the
action
taken
with
regard
to
the
insulation
program
?
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
yes
,
i
agree
with
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
.
{sent}
i
think
the
hon.
member
for
york
centre
(
mr.
kaplan
)
has
a
strong
case
.
{sent}
however
,
i
would
rather
wait
and
hear
what
the
parliamentary
secretary
has
to
say
,
since
he
is
supposed
to
speak
on
behalf
of
the
minister
and
the
government
.
{sent}
as
i
tried
to
say
in
my
speech
,
mr.
speaker
,
this
is
just
one
example
of
many
cases
.
{sent}
the
ability
for
deterrence
which
this
committee
has
is
that
it
is
not
known
which
department
it
will
choose
.
{sent}
if
we
can
get
support
from
the
house
on
this
matter
,
in
the
future
departments
will
be
very
careful
to
ensure
that
these
regulations
are
carried
out
under
the
law
.
{sent}
in
summary
,
these
regulations
are
very
important
in
our
lives
,
perhaps
even
more
so
than
the
statutes
.
{sent}
second
,
they
are
hard
to
scrutinize
.
{sent}
third
,
the
committee
has
been
expanded
in
its
mandate
and
jurisdiction
to
scrutinize
these
instruments
.
{sent}
fourth
,
this
was
accomplished
through
the
support
of
the
house
which
has
built
up
over
many
years
and
was
started
,
quite
frankly
,
by
many
conservatives
.
{sent}
although
i
have
not
yet
heard
the
government
's
reply
,
i
think
this
is
a
case
in
which
the
government
could
accept
some
chastisement
and
indicate
that
its
conduct
will
change
.
{sent}
finally
,
this
is
a
very
good
test
for
the
new
parliamentary
procedures
which
we
have
embarked
upon
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
period
for
questions
and
comments
has
now
expired
.
{sent}
resuming
debate
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
(
mr.
mcdermid
)
.
{sent}
mr.
john
mcdermid
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
a
pleasure
for
me
to
participate
in
this
debate
today
.
{sent}
i
appreciate
the
high
level
of
debate
,
for
the
most
part
,
which
we
have
heard
from
the
opposition
side
.
{sent}
there
are
two
questions
to
be
debated
.
{sent}
the
first
is
that
of
regulations
coming
in
after
an
intended
deadline
for
a
program
.
{sent}
we
accept
the
recommendation
that
regulations
should
be
made
and
enacted
before
a
deadline
is
set
.
{sent}
i
think
that
is
a
very
worthy
recommendation
.
{sent}
governments
are
going
to
make
mistakes
,
and
i
think
they
can
learn
from
their
mistakes
.
{sent}
that
is
very
important
.
{sent}
my
friend
,
the
member
for
york
centre
(
mr.
kaplan
)
has
pointed
out
that
this
was
done
in
a
nonpartisan
manner
.
{sent}
it
also
suggests
that
if
the
government
had
acted
in
accordance
with
proper
procedures
,
that
would
not
have
happened
.
{sent}
my
hon.
friend
from
vancouver
--
kingsway
(
mr.
waddell
)
made
it
very
clear
that
the
public
do
not
sit
down
and
read
the
gazette
,
which
can
be
voluminous
and
very
complicated
at
times
.
{sent}
the
minister
mentioned
the
other
day
that
the
facts
were
not
well
presented
to
the
committee
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
lay
them
out
for
the
house
today
.
{sent}
we
feel
the
government
acted
fairly
and
generously
.
{sent}
it
phased
out
chip
in
an
orderly
manner
.
{sent}
it
announced
its
intentions
clearly
and
provided
canadians
with
enough
time
to
adjust
to
the
lower
level
of
funding
.
{sent}
moreover
,
the
phase-out
process
provided
canadians
with
additional
benefits
which
would
not
have
been
available
if
another
approach
had
been
used
.
{sent}
before
i
explain
why
the
phase-out
process
was
entirely
appropriate
,
let
me
review
the
facts
.
{sent}
they
are
easily
misinterpreted
and
i
believe
that
is
why
the
committee
was
critical
of
the
government
.
{sent}
these
are
the
facts
.
{sent}
on
november
8
,
1984
,
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
announced
that
chip
would
be
phased
out
by
march
31
,
1986
.
{sent}
that
announcement
was
one
aspect
of
a
broader
government
program
to
restrain
expenditures
and
reduce
the
crippling
debt
left
us
and
all
canadians
by
the
previous
government
.
{sent}
it
was
clear
that
some
flexibility
was
needed
to
avoid
applicants
missing
out
on
the
60
per
cent
grants
through
no
fault
of
their
own
.
{sent}
therefore
,
the
minister
announced
on
november
16
that
applicants
had
until
december
31
to
register
their
commitment
to
have
insulation
work
done
.
{sent}
if
they
completed
the
work
by
march
31
,
1985
,
they
would
receive
the
60
per
cent
funding
.
{sent}
this
generous
provision
ensured
that
applicants
were
not
denied
grants
at
the
60
per
cent
level
because
of
a
shortage
of
material
and
contractors
.
{sent}
on
january
17
,
1985
--
and
these
dates
are
very
important
--
the
order
in
council
was
passed
enacting
the
change
to
the
regulations
.
{sent}
i
think
everyone
is
in
agreement
so
far
.
{sent}
if
the
government
had
simply
announced
the
grant
reduction
to
take
effect
on
january
1
,
1985
with
no
special
provisions
,
the
regulations
would
have
been
approved
earlier
.
{sent}
however
,
the
government
was
more
concerned
with
being
fair
to
canadians
than
writing
regulations
quickly
.
{sent}
it
took
care
that
those
regulations
were
drafted
properly
to
the
benefit
of
chip
applicants
.
{sent}
it
is
important
to
understand
that
at
no
time
was
it
ever
intended
that
the
reduction
in
the
level
of
grants
would
be
retroactive
.
{sent}
yet
what
of
those
home
owners
who
,
through
no
fault
of
their
own
,
were
not
able
to
get
work
done
in
time
to
receive
the
60
per
cent
grants
?
{sent}
the
government
would
have
been
acting
in
accordance
with
proper
procedure
if
it
had
taken
this
approach
but
canadians
would
have
been
the
losers
.
{sent}
this
provision
actually
gave
home
owners
a
longer
period
in
which
to
qualify
for
the
higher
grants
than
they
would
have
been
allowed
under
other
,
less
generous
phase-out
approaches
.
{sent}
this
was
an
extraordinary
measure
in
the
history
of
chip
.
{sent}
home
owners
had
never
been
entitled
to
guarantees
of
payment
at
a
certain
level
for
a
certain
length
of
time
.
{sent}
under
previous
regulations
a
home
owner
received
a
grant
in
accordance
with
the
regulation
at
the
time
his
or
her
application
was
received
.
{sent}
the
regulations
dealing
with
the
grant
levels
,
as
everyone
in
this
house
knows
,
changed
many
times
during
the
life
of
the
program
.
{sent}
it
has
been
said
that
some
unspecified
number
of
home
owners
were
denied
grants
at
the
60
per
cent
level
because
of
the
phase-out
process
.
{sent}
the
facts
show
the
exact
opposite
to
be
true
.
{sent}
so
the
comment
that
my
friend
from
vancouver
--
kingsway
made
regarding
all
the
applications
which
came
in
after
december
31
,
1984
,
for
60
per
cent
were
thrown
in
the
garbage
,
is
just
untrue
.
{sent}
it
is
just
untrue
.
{sent}
the
only
people
who
did
not
receive
a
60
per
cent
grant
up
to
january
17
,
1985
,
were
those
who
did
not
qualify
for
any
level
of
grant
.
{sent}
they
just
did
not
qualify
and
would
not
have
qualified
no
matter
what
the
level
of
grant
was
.
{sent}
they
were
the
only
ones
.
{sent}
approximately
84,000
home
owners
took
advantage
of
the
flexibility
built
into
the
phase-out
process
to
apply
for
grants
at
the
60
per
cent
level
up
until
december
31
,
1984
.
{sent}
an
additional
25,000
applied
for
grants
at
this
level
between
january
1
and
january
17
,
an
extra
25,000
in
that
period
of
time
,
up
until
the
regulations
were
passed
.
{sent}
some
96
per
cent
of
all
applicants
qualified
for
grants
and
received
the
full
60
per
cent
funding
.
{sent}
four
per
cent
just
did
not
qualify
.
{sent}
such
announcements
are
made
routinely
by
ministers
.
{sent}
they
were
made
routinely
by
ministers
of
the
previous
government
and
they
are
made
routinely
by
ministers
of
this
government
.
{sent}
they
are
part
of
a
commitment
to
inform
canadians
of
the
government
's
plans
as
soon
as
it
is
reasonably
possile
.
{sent}
what
the
minister
did
was
clear
and
proper
.
{sent}
she
announced
a
policy
intention
to
reduce
the
grant
level
.
{sent}
she
did
not
act
on
it
until
then
.
{sent}
that
is
not
mentioned
in
the
report
handed
down
by
the
committee
.
{sent}
the
committee
said
they
were
not
satisfied
with
the
evidence
and
i
hope
that
today
,
after
they
hear
the
evidence
,
they
will
in
fact
be
satisfied
.
{sent}
the
figures
show
that
the
phase-out
process
was
effective
in
allowing
canadians
to
qualify
for
60
per
cent
funding
.
{sent}
clearly
,
canadians
knew
about
the
planned
changes
to
the
program
and
took
advantage
of
the
generous
phase-out
process
to
get
the
higher
level
of
funding
.
{sent}
if
there
are
any
canadians
who
did
not
know
of
the
government
's
intention
to
reduce
the
level
of
grants
,
it
is
not
because
proper
procedures
were
not
followed
.
{sent}
the
usual
method
of
making
these
matters
known
;
statements
,
news
releases
,
asking
the
insulation
industry
to
inform
clients
,
were
used
.
{sent}
i
note
that
the
committee
pointed
out
in
its
report
that
the
decision
was
widely
publicized
both
by
energy
,
mines
and
resources
and
the
media
.
{sent}
teleposts
were
sent
to
all
listed
contractors
,
industry
associations
and
building
supply
stores
.
{sent}
as
well
,
the
``
heatline
office
''
and
chip
regional
offices
informed
all
telephone
callers
of
this
announcement
.
{sent}
when
one
looks
at
the
history
of
chip
,
it
is
clear
that
the
program
has
provided
a
generous
level
of
funding
throughout
its
history
.
{sent}
since
its
inception
in
september
,
1977
,
it
has
provided
2.8
million
applicants
with
$
900
million
in
assistance
.
{sent}
chip
has
made
an
important
contribution
to
taking
canada
down
the
road
to
energy
security
.
{sent}
when
our
government
took
office
,
it
was
clear
that
the
program
had
gone
a
long
way
to
achieve
its
goals
and
that
providing
government
funding
indefinitely
would
be
too
costly
.
{sent}
this
was
particularly
true
because
of
the
deficit
.
{sent}
we
decided
to
end
the
program
one
year
earlier
than
the
previous
government
had
intended
.
{sent}
this
did
not
indicate
any
flagging
of
our
commitment
to
energy
conservation
in
canada
.
{sent}
it
was
a
prudent
decision
.
{sent}
deficit
reduction
was
one
of
the
important
reasons
for
phasing
out
chip
but
it
was
not
the
only
reason
.
{sent}
we
recognized
that
conditions
in
the
market-place
had
changed
and
that
the
government
's
role
had
to
change
with
them
.
{sent}
chip
,
and
its
companion
program
,
the
canadian
oil
substitution
program
,
provided
a
high
level
of
funding
for
consumers
for
several
years
.
{sent}
more
important
,
they
helped
to
change
the
way
canadians
think
about
energy
and
its
use
.
{sent}
it
became
clear
to
us
that
it
was
time
for
the
government
to
lessen
its
direct
financial
involvement
.
{sent}
the
point
had
been
made
with
consumers
that
it
is
a
good
investment
to
use
less
energy
and
to
use
it
more
efficiently
.
{sent}
reducing
oil
use
remains
an
important
long
term
goal
of
the
government
.
{sent}
despite
declining
oil
prices
,
energy
conservation
is
still
a
very
good
investment
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
when
prices
will
rise
again
but
we
know
that
they
will
rise
because
oil
supplies
will
eventually
decline
.
{sent}
we
saw
all
too
clearly
in
the
1970s
how
supply
can
be
manipulated
to
suddenly
and
drastically
increase
prices
.
{sent}
we
cannot
and
should
not
continue
to
expect
the
public
treasury
to
borrow
funds
to
provide
consumer
grants
.
{sent}
programs
such
as
chip
have
started
the
energy
conservation
process
going
and
they
maintained
it
for
a
significant
period
of
time
.
{sent}
the
government
will
now
concentrate
its
efforts
on
ensuring
that
home
owners
are
fully
aware
of
the
options
available
to
them
.
{sent}
we
are
continuing
to
help
find
solutions
to
technical
problems
,
to
refine
and
expand
work
standards
,
and
to
assist
the
industry
to
improve
insulation
techniques
and
marketing
.
{sent}
the
concern
for
energy
conservation
and
the
needs
of
canadian
home
owners
was
at
the
heart
of
our
decision
on
how
to
phase
out
chip
.
{sent}
our
greatest
concern
was
to
be
as
fair
to
canadians
as
humanly
possible
.
{sent}
we
proceeded
carefully
.
{sent}
we
consulted
with
the
industry
and
then
acted
in
such
a
way
that
canadians
were
not
denied
an
appropriate
level
of
funding
because
of
circumstances
beyond
their
control
.
{sent}
we
acted
fairly
,
we
acted
properly
and
we
acted
generously
.
{sent}
we
accept
and
understand
that
the
regulations
were
brought
in
after
the
announced
closing
of
the
program
.
{sent}
that
is
fair
enough
.
{sent}
mr.
kaplan
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
parliamentary
secretary
has
put
forward
some
information
that
is
new
,
at
least
as
far
as
i
am
concerned
.
{sent}
however
,
i
want
to
react
to
it
in
terms
of
the
mandate
of
the
committee
and
then
hear
the
hon.
member
's
comments
.
{sent}
i
must
say
,
looking
at
the
revelations
that
he
has
just
made
from
the
perspective
of
the
committee
's
mandate
,
i
think
he
has
made
the
situation
worse
.
{sent}
i
want
to
point
out
two
problems
to
him
that
arise
from
what
he
said
.
{sent}
first
,
he
told
us
that
the
government
did
not
stick
to
its
own
press
release
.
{sent}
the
press
release
advised
consumers
to
get
their
applications
in
by
december
31
.
{sent}
this
was
a
great
unfairness
to
people
who
took
the
government
seriously
when
it
put
out
its
press
release
.
{sent}
how
many
people
came
in
between
december
31
and
january
17
?
{sent}
what
information
was
given
to
members
who
were
relying
on
the
press
release
and
advising
their
constituents
who
had
missed
the
deadline
?
{sent}
how
did
the
information
get
out
that
an
application
submitted
during
that
critical
two
and
one
half
week
period
would
still
be
accepted
?
{sent}
that
is
the
first
problem
which
concerns
me
.
{sent}
the
second
problem
concerns
the
contents
of
the
regulation
.
{sent}
this
is
a
regulation
that
we
have
challenged
and
which
i
assume
the
government
was
defending
.
{sent}
the
regulation
stated
december
31
as
the
cut-off
date
but
in
fact
it
took
effect
on
january
17
.
{sent}
if
december
31
was
not
the
cut-off
date
and
the
government
was
prepared
to
give
grants
for
applications
that
were
received
between
december
31
and
january
17
,
what
authority
does
the
government
have
to
honour
those
applications
?
{sent}
it
is
certainly
not
the
regulation
because
the
regulation
imposes
a
cut-off
two
and
a
half
weeks
earlier
.
{sent}
i
support
the
chip
program
and
would
have
been
happy
if
the
government
continued
it
.
{sent}
i
am
not
talking
about
it
from
the
point
of
view
of
policy
,
and
i
am
pleased
that
others
were
able
to
receive
the
money
.
{sent}
however
,
from
the
point
of
view
of
the
mandate
of
the
committee
,
i
must
ask
the
parliamentary
secretary
about
the
meaning
of
the
regulation
.
{sent}
what
authority
does
the
government
believe
it
has
for
ignoring
the
terms
of
the
regulation
and
validating
applications
that
were
received
in
that
two
and
one
half
week
period
?
{sent}
finally
,
it
seems
to
me
that
the
initial
mistake
that
was
made
,
for
which
the
minister
surely
must
be
accountable
,
is
that
she
gave
her
officials
an
assignment
that
they
could
not
handle
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
told
us
himself
that
there
was
no
way
that
the
regulations
could
be
drafted
on
time
,
even
though
they
knew
they
needed
regulations
.
{sent}
he
has
indicated
that
they
needed
them
to
validate
what
it
was
they
wanted
to
do
.
{sent}
they
should
have
picked
a
realistic
date
for
their
officials
in
order
that
the
law
could
have
been
obeyed
.
{sent}
in
this
way
the
rule
of
law
could
have
been
complied
with
and
we
would
not
have
had
the
necessity
of
making
the
report
which
is
before
us
.
{sent}
i
feel
even
more
strongly
than
i
did
before
that
the
government
stands
condemned
by
the
terms
of
our
report
and
by
the
way
it
behaved
in
trying
to
extricate
itself
from
this
very
unsatisfactory
situation
.
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
mr.
speaker
,
if
the
hon.
member
expects
recipients
of
chip
to
survive
on
the
salary
of
a
parliamentary
secretary
,
then
it
will
be
an
awfully
thin
program
.
{sent}
i
can
guarantee
him
that
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
it
will
be
a
thin
parliamentary
secretary
,
too
!
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
that
is
right
.
{sent}
i
say
to
the
hon.
member
that
the
committee
cannot
have
it
both
ways
;
it
cannot
suck
and
blow
at
the
same
time
.
{sent}
it
is
saying
that
we
cut
people
off
on
december
31
,
that
that
was
illegal
and
that
we
should
not
have
done
it
.
{sent}
he
then
says
that
we
did
not
honour
them
until
the
regulations
were
passed
,
and
he
asked
for
a
number
.
{sent}
there
were
some
25,000
.
{sent}
there
were
no
special
favours
given
.
{sent}
obviously
,
people
who
applied
for
chip
grants
after
the
deadline
were
expecting
to
receive
a
33-1/3
per
cent
grant
.
{sent}
there
was
no
discrimination
with
respect
to
the
matter
whatsoever
.
{sent}
it
was
done
absolutely
honestly
,
above
board
,
and
with
the
greatest
of
fairness
and
concern
for
all
canadians
who
applied
for
chip
grants
.
{sent}
for
the
hon.
member
to
try
to
make
a
silk
purse
out
of
a
sow
's
ear
is
very
unfortunate
.
{sent}
the
government
has
accepted
chastisement
with
respect
to
the
fact
that
regulations
were
brought
in
at
a
date
later
than
the
announcement
made
by
the
minister
.
{sent}
however
,
at
the
same
time
,
we
did
not
penalize
canadians
in
any
way
,
shape
or
form
.
{sent}
they
were
well
informed
and
properly
advised
.
{sent}
for
the
hon.
member
to
say
that
they
were
not
properly
advised
because
it
was
not
in
the
the
canada
gazette
at
the
time
is
completely
wrong
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
two
short
questions
for
the
parliamentary
secretary
.
{sent}
would
the
hon.
member
not
agree
with
me
that
there
is
a
difference
between
what
he
considers
as
the
government
acting
fairly
,
generously
and
properly
and
the
government
acting
according
to
law
?
{sent}
will
he
admit
that
in
fact
it
did
not
act
according
to
law
?
{sent}
i
will
repeat
my
question
.
{sent}
representatives
of
the
department
told
the
committee
that
when
they
received
applications
dated
after
december
31
,
1984
claiming
the
60
per
cent
rebate
,
there
were
no
statistics
available
with
respect
to
that
matter
.
{sent}
why
did
they
tell
the
committee
that
,
if
what
the
hon.
member
is
saying
is
correct
?
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
question
they
were
asked
was
with
respect
to
how
many
were
rejected
on
the
grounds
that
a
purchase
commitment
ought
to
have
been
registered
before
that
date
.
{sent}
the
response
was
that
,
unfortunately
,
there
is
no
record
of
those
rejected
on
that
basis
.
{sent}
we
do
know
how
many
came
in
and
how
many
were
approved
.
{sent}
the
question
was
:
how
many
were
rejected
?
{sent}
if
he
had
been
asked
how
many
were
approved
he
would
have
told
them
that
it
was
25,000
.
{sent}
what
the
member
has
virtually
conceded
is
that
the
regulation
was
invalid
and
that
steps
considered
appropriate
were
taken
to
compensate
for
its
invalidity
.
{sent}
if
the
regulation
is
invalid
,
then
people
who
applied
after
january
17
should
not
be
receiving
33-1/3
per
cent
but
,
rather
,
60
per
cent
.
{sent}
i
say
this
because
the
regulation
cutting
the
applicants
down
from
60
per
cent
to
33-1/3
per
cent
is
invalid
.
{sent}
the
government
has
admitted
that
.
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
mr.
speaker
,
that
is
convoluted
liberal
thinking
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
because
it
is
logical
?
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
those
who
applied
after
january
17
knew
full
well
what
they
would
be
receiving
.
{sent}
they
knew
for
what
they
were
applying
.
{sent}
the
regulation
was
in
place
.
{sent}
for
the
hon.
member
to
make
a
suggestion
such
as
the
one
he
has
made
,
with
a
silly
grin
on
his
face
at
the
same
time
--
{sent}
mr.
kaplan
:
i
don't
have
a
silly
grin
on
my
face
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
marvellous
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
time
allotted
for
questions
and
comments
has
now
terminated
.
{sent}
mr.
russell
maclellan
(
cape
breton
--
the
sydneys
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
say
a
few
words
about
the
report
of
the
standing
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
.
{sent}
it
is
a
very
significant
report
which
brings
forward
very
important
points
.
{sent}
the
second
matter
,
and
perhaps
the
most
important
,
is
with
respect
to
the
way
the
government
is
treating
the
legality
of
this
whole
situation
.
{sent}
i
appreciate
that
the
government
made
a
decision
that
it
did
not
want
to
continue
with
chip
.
{sent}
i
do
not
agree
with
its
decision
but
it
is
the
right
of
the
government
to
make
such
decisions
.
{sent}
it
initially
made
an
announcement
concerning
this
matter
on
november
8
,
1984
,
when
the
minister
of
finance
(
mr.
wilson
)
delivered
his
economic
statement
.
{sent}
this
was
followed
up
by
a
press
release
by
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
(
miss
carney
)
on
november
16
.
{sent}
these
statements
indicated
that
certain
undertakings
had
to
be
obtained
by
applicants
prior
to
december
31
,
1984
,
and
that
anyone
who
could
not
apply
prior
to
january
1
,
1985
would
not
be
eligible
for
the
60
per
cent
.
{sent}
after
that
date
they
would
be
eligible
for
only
33-1/3
per
cent
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
the
regulations
were
not
passed
until
january
17
,
1985
,
making
the
action
of
the
government
illegal
,
as
has
been
stated
by
the
hon.
member
for
york
centre
(
mr.
kaplan
)
.
{sent}
the
government
had
no
legal
right
to
prohibit
consumers
who
applied
for
chip
prior
to
janaury
18
,
1985
from
receiving
the
60
per
cent
to
which
they
were
entitled
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
has
said
that
the
government
gave
the
60
per
cent
to
those
who
applied
prior
to
january
18
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
that
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
how
many
applied
.
{sent}
the
committee
was
told
by
a
representative
of
the
department
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
that
,
unfortunately
,
statistics
were
not
kept
with
respect
to
the
number
of
registrations
which
were
rejected
.
{sent}
thus
we
really
do
not
know
.
{sent}
yet
the
parliamentary
secretary
would
have
us
believe
that
the
60
per
cent
was
granted
to
those
who
applied
prior
to
january
17
.
{sent}
a
great
many
people
had
been
told
by
the
department
that
they
were
not
eligible
.
{sent}
had
they
put
in
their
applications
against
the
advice
of
the
department
they
would
have
been
eligible
.
{sent}
it
is
highly
unlikely
that
anyone
would
put
in
an
application
after
having
been
told
by
the
department
that
he
would
not
be
eligible
.
{sent}
there
was
quite
a
problem
there
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
would
have
us
believe
that
there
was
no
time
to
put
a
regulation
in
place
prior
to
january
17
.
{sent}
the
government
did
not
open
parliament
until
november
5
or
6
,
two
or
three
days
prior
to
the
minister
's
economic
and
fiscal
statement
.
{sent}
the
government
was
elected
on
september
4
and
the
house
did
not
sit
until
the
week
of
november
5
,
yet
the
regulation
could
not
be
put
in
place
until
january
17
.
{sent}
that
is
highly
incredible
.
{sent}
there
is
no
reason
the
regulation
could
not
have
been
prepared
at
the
same
time
the
government
was
drafting
its
economic
and
fiscal
statement
.
{sent}
that
is
irresponsible
.
{sent}
the
government
is
putting
things
into
law
retroactively
.
{sent}
that
will
not
sit
well
with
the
canadian
people
.
{sent}
that
is
not
legal
.
{sent}
it
is
not
as
though
the
government
only
did
that
on
this
occasion
.
{sent}
the
government
is
applying
regulations
retroactively
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
indicated
that
the
government
is
more
concerned
with
the
welfare
of
canadians
than
with
passing
regulations
quickly
,
but
that
is
just
hogwash
.
{sent}
the
government
cannot
be
concerned
with
the
welfare
of
canadians
if
it
is
going
to
break
the
law
to
reduce
the
benefits
that
flow
to
canadians
.
{sent}
this
is
a
very
important
question
.
{sent}
i
would
ask
all
hon.
members
to
concur
in
the
report
of
the
committee
.
{sent}
the
report
of
the
committee
is
on
the
side
of
law
.
{sent}
the
stance
of
the
government
is
that
it
is
trying
to
justify
the
breach
of
a
law
,
but
that
is
contrary
to
the
laws
of
canada
.
{sent}
i
would
ask
all
hon.
members
to
vote
with
the
committee
and
not
with
the
government
.
{sent}
first
and
foremost
,
this
question
is
a
point
which
all
canadians
must
consider
.
{sent}
if
we
are
going
to
continue
to
pass
regulations
and
apply
them
retroactively
,
canadians
cannot
possibly
have
any
confidence
in
or
respect
for
the
laws
of
canada
.
{sent}
it
was
stated
that
in
the
last
parliament
,
4,000
regulations
were
passed
.
{sent}
regulations
are
out
of
control
.
{sent}
they
are
passed
but
are
never
reviewed
.
{sent}
they
are
costing
canadians
millions
of
dollars
.
{sent}
regulations
under
one
act
contradict
regulations
under
another
act
.
{sent}
federal
regulations
contradict
provincial
regulations
.
{sent}
the
whole
thing
is
out
of
control
.
{sent}
what
is
most
out
of
control
is
the
attitude
of
this
government
which
is
taking
away
the
rights
of
canadians
without
passing
the
proper
laws
.
{sent}
the
government
is
deciding
arbitrarily
that
canadians
are
not
going
to
have
these
benefits
,
not
only
without
compassion
but
without
the
legal
capacity
to
do
so
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
comment
to
make
on
this
issue
.
{sent}
i
see
that
the
parliamentary
secretary
is
now
here
.
{sent}
perhaps
he
would
reply
to
this
.
{sent}
say
there
are
two
people
who
did
not
complete
the
program
by
january
17
but
both
made
commitments
to
complete
by
the
end
of
march
.
{sent}
we
should
ask
ourselves
if
they
would
both
receive
60
per
cent
of
the
cost
,
and
the
answer
is
,
not
necessarily
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
is
the
hon.
member
asking
the
hon.
member
a
question
?
{sent}
i
wish
he
would
direct
the
question
to
--
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
i
am
sorry
.
{sent}
i
do
wish
to
make
a
comment
and
i
hope
that
the
hon.
member
does
return
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
please
direct
the
question
to
the
hon.
member
who
just
spoke
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
here
he
is
now
.
{sent}
let
me
repeat
the
question
.
{sent}
i
wonder
if
the
hon.
member
would
agree
that
it
is
possible
that
they
may
not
both
have
received
60
per
cent
of
the
costs
.
{sent}
let
me
put
it
another
way
.
{sent}
suppose
someone
comes
to
the
government
on
january
22
with
a
contract
made
on
january
2
committing
him
to
complete
by
the
end
of
march
.
{sent}
is
it
not
possible
that
the
deparment
would
tell
that
person
that
he
did
not
register
before
december
31
and
would
therefore
receive
only
33-1/3
per
cent
of
the
costs
?
{sent}
this
is
surely
where
the
government
's
position
is
flawed
.
{sent}
since
it
did
not
have
the
proper
order
in
council
,
the
government
is
trying
to
finesse
the
point
of
the
so-called
fairness
of
the
procedure
.
{sent}
is
it
not
possible
and
indeed
probable
that
one
would
receive
60
per
cent
of
the
costs
and
one
would
receive
only
33-1/3
per
cent
of
the
costs
?
{sent}
mr.
maclellan
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
agree
with
the
hon.
member
for
vancouver
--
kingsway
(
mr.
waddell
)
.
{sent}
that
certainly
is
possible
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
we
do
not
really
know
what
happened
between
january
1
and
january
17
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
how
many
people
applied
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
what
treatment
they
were
given
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
how
many
applications
were
rejected
as
the
department
has
indicated
that
it
does
not
have
that
information
,
something
which
is
rather
surprising
.
{sent}
no
statement
was
made
by
the
minister
prior
to
december
31
,
1984
,
indicating
that
the
time
would
be
extended
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
during
the
time
between
january
1
and
january
17
,
1985
,
the
minister
made
no
statement
indicating
that
the
time
was
to
be
extended
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
whether
or
not
those
in
the
department
took
it
upon
themselves
to
treat
applications
that
came
in
between
january
1
and
january
17
in
their
own
fashion
without
passing
them
along
,
because
we
do
not
have
any
records
.
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
comment
to
make
.
{sent}
i
disagree
with
my
hon.
friend
.
{sent}
i
say
yes
,
the
two
people
would
receive
the
same
amount
.
{sent}
i
might
say
that
anyone
who
signed
a
contract
after
january
1
was
well
informed
all
the
way
along
as
to
what
was
happening
with
the
program
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
not
by
order
in
council
,
not
by
gazette
and
not
by
law
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
appreciate
that
hon.
members
are
having
a
little
question
and
comment
period
between
themselves
.
{sent}
if
they
would
like
to
do
that
behind
the
curtains
that
would
be
fine
,
but
questions
at
this
point
should
be
directed
to
the
hon.
member
for
cape
breton
--
the
sydneys
(
mr.
maclellan
)
.
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
thought
i
was
doing
pretty
well
in
that
i
was
being
interrupted
by
my
friend
from
vancouver
.
{sent}
i
am
making
a
comment
at
this
point
;
i
am
not
asking
a
question
.
{sent}
as
i
was
saying
,
the
canadian
public
was
very
well
informed
.
{sent}
obviously
they
were
well
informed
because
of
the
huge
number
of
applications
which
came
into
the
department
before
december
31
.
{sent}
those
who
made
application
after
december
31
knew
full
well
that
they
were
applying
under
the
33-1/3
per
cent
grant
.
{sent}
however
,
because
the
regulations
were
not
passed
,
the
department
honoured
the
60
per
cent
grant
for
those
people
who
applied
in
that
time
period
.
{sent}
it
was
a
very
fair
way
to
treat
the
canadian
public
,
and
that
is
the
way
it
happened
.
{sent}
mr.
benno
friesen
(
surrey
--
white
rock
--
north
delta
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
one
of
the
benefits
of
having
been
here
a
while
is
that
the
speaker
learns
the
name
of
one
's
riding
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
i
have
no
difficulty
with
``
surrey
--
white
rock
--
north
delta
''
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
,
after
the
next
election
,
that
it
would
have
one
or
two
names
like
surrey
--
white
rock
.
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
i
would
not
want
you
,
sir
,
to
leave
out
one
of
the
areas
of
my
good
constituency
.
{sent}
another
benefit
of
having
been
here
a
while
is
that
one
develops
a
memory
for
past
events
.
{sent}
i
am
now
taking
some
pleasure
in
an
ironic
sense
of
justice
,
the
wheels
having
turned
full
circle
.
{sent}
we
are
not
dealing
with
only
the
matter
of
chip
.
{sent}
we
are
really
dealing
with
the
whole
subject
of
delegated
legislation
and
the
procedures
followed
by
the
standing
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
.
{sent}
when
i
was
sitting
in
the
opposition
,
an
order
in
council
passed
by
the
previous
government
consumed
much
of
my
attention
and
quite
a
bit
of
my
energy
.
{sent}
it
was
known
as
the
emergency
planning
orders
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
who
tabled
this
report
should
not
walk
out
because
my
remarks
will
be
of
interest
to
him
.
{sent}
i
see
that
i
have
peaked
his
attention
,
at
least
.
{sent}
mr.
kaplan
:
yes.
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
the
particular
emergency
planning
order
never
enjoyed
the
benefit
of
news
releases
,
as
did
this
particular
order
in
council
.
{sent}
this
one
had
at
least
two
,
three
or
four
news
releases
which
anticipated
the
new
regulations
that
would
be
adopted
later
by
the
government
.
{sent}
the
emergency
planning
order
did
not
enjoy
any
flare
of
publicity
.
{sent}
it
was
just
gazetted
,
and
some
very
sharp
canadian
somewhere
noticed
it
and
gave
some
prominence
to
it
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
it
is
still
on
the
books
today
.
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
i
hear
the
hon.
member
for
burnaby
(
mr.
robinson
)
.
{sent}
i
think
he
has
become
sloppy
in
his
attention
to
house
business
.
{sent}
he
knows
very
well
that
the
associate
minister
of
national
defence
(
mr.
andre
)
is
revamping
that
entire
matter
,
including
the
war
measures
act
.
{sent}
he
should
not
get
too
anxious
.
{sent}
now
it
so
happens
--
and
this
is
where
the
justice
comes
in
--
that
the
hon.
member
for
york
centre
is
a
co-chairman
of
the
committee
which
is
examining
delegated
legislation
,
orders
in
council
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
perfect
that
the
hon.
member
for
york
centre
,
who
ran
a
little
roughshod
over
some
government
procedures
in
that
process
,
would
now
have
to
chair
the
committee
which
examines
delegated
legislation
.
{sent}
when
i
sat
on
the
parliamentary
reform
committee
i
had
two
main
concerns
.
{sent}
one
of
them
was
my
concern
for
delegated
legislation
or
orders
in
council
which
do
not
enjoy
parliamentary
scrutiny
unless
they
are
elevated
to
the
point
of
attention
by
this
particular
committee
.
{sent}
i
was
very
concerned
about
the
workability
of
the
standing
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
.
{sent}
there
is
a
sense
in
which
i
want
to
commend
the
committee
for
bringing
forward
this
matter
.
{sent}
at
the
same
time
,
i
am
concerned
about
the
fact
that
the
committee
did
it
.
{sent}
i
really
think
that
committee
members
have
overblown
the
case
here
.
{sent}
they
are
taking
a
subject
,
which
may
even
be
of
some
legitimate
concern
,
and
are
overblowing
it
to
the
point
of
making
it
look
frivolous
in
the
context
of
what
they
ought
to
be
doing
.
{sent}
let
us
assume
there
was
a
17-day
gap
between
january
1
and
january
17
when
the
order
in
council
might
have
been
printed
.
{sent}
he
would
have
indicated
that
surely
an
economic
statement
deserved
some
attention
and
debate
in
parliament
,
and
that
orders
in
council
should
flow
from
that
debate
and
be
registered
thereafter
.
{sent}
he
cannot
have
it
both
ways
.
{sent}
on
the
one
hand
he
cannot
allow
for
full
parliamentary
debate
and
examination
of
that
statement
and
for
parliament
to
ventilate
its
concerns
and
,
on
the
other
hand
,
expect
the
regulations
to
be
printed
at
the
same
time
.
{sent}
in
his
opening
statement
--
and
i
think
i
am
quoting
the
co-chairman
accurately
--
he
said
that
it
was
an
unusual
use
of
the
powers
of
government
.
{sent}
previous
speakers
have
pointed
out
that
plenty
of
notice
was
given
to
the
public
.
{sent}
a
news
release
was
sent
out
on
november
8
defining
for
the
canadian
public
the
terms
under
which
the
new
programs
would
work
.
{sent}
there
was
another
one
on
november
9
in
which
the
minister
announced
that
the
lower
rate
of
contributions
would
be
implemented
effective
january
1
,
1985
.
{sent}
i
can
tell
the
hon.
member
,
from
the
responses
i
received
from
the
industry
,
that
it
was
well
informed
about
the
government
's
procedures
and
intentions
.
{sent}
there
was
another
announcement
on
november
16
elaborating
on
the
program
.
{sent}
it
is
really
overstating
the
case
when
the
hon.
member
says
that
it
was
an
unusual
use
of
the
powers
of
government
.
{sent}
also
,
as
a
member
of
the
parliamentary
reform
committee
,
i
caution
the
members
of
this
committee
to
use
wisely
these
powers
which
are
long
overdue
and
which
many
of
us
wanted
.
{sent}
again
i
say
that
this
is
somewhat
a
frivolous
motion
because
they
could
have
tabled
this
particular
report
under
the
provisions
of
standing
order
44
.
{sent}
it
would
then
have
forced
the
government
into
a
change
of
the
regulations
.
{sent}
the
committee
chose
not
to
do
that
.
{sent}
it
chose
to
critize
the
procedure
,
tabled
a
report
and
asked
for
a
two-hour
debate
to
talk
about
the
report
.
{sent}
but
as
a
result
,
nothing
happens
.
{sent}
time
and
the
effects
of
the
program
are
already
past
.
{sent}
the
public
was
properly
informed
.
{sent}
probably
all
of
the
applicants
or
intended
applicants
had
a
choice
whether
or
not
they
wanted
to
take
part
in
the
program
.
{sent}
i
would
caution
the
standing
joint
committee
on
regulations
and
other
statutory
instruments
in
respect
of
its
use
of
the
powers
which
are
the
committee
's
which
happily
now
allow
the
committee
to
bring
about
changes
in
government
regulations
in
order
to
correct
an
injustice
.
{sent}
this
could
not
be
done
before
the
reform
was
accepted
by
the
house
.
{sent}
up
until
february
any
time
this
committee
sat
,
all
it
could
do
was
ventilate
an
issue
but
nothing
happened
.
{sent}
under
the
reform
of
the
house
of
commons
,
the
committee
now
tables
a
report
under
s.
o.
44
,
which
i
will
read
into
the
record
:
{sent}
--
if
the
report
is
concurred
in
,
would
be
an
order
of
this
house
to
the
ministry
to
rescind
one
specified
regulation
or
other
statutory
instrument
,
which
the
ministry
has
the
authority
to
rescind
.
{sent}
that
puts
muscle
to
a
report
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
what
the
committee
has
chosen
to
do
is
to
table
a
report
which
has
absolutely
no
muscle
to
it
and
has
consumed
two
hours
of
debating
time
,
time
which
could
have
been
spent
much
more
wisely
on
something
else
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
question
for
the
hon.
member
with
respect
to
his
earlier
remarks
on
pc-1305
,
the
emergency
planning
order
.
{sent}
now
that
the
hon.
member
for
surrey
--
white
rock
--
north
delta
(
mr.
friesen
)
is
a
government
member
,
it
seems
that
he
is
singing
a
different
tune
.
{sent}
how
can
the
hon.
member
possibly
justify
the
total
inaction
of
his
own
government
with
respect
to
the
emergency
planning
order
?
{sent}
why
is
he
now
saying
that
it
is
all
right
for
his
government
to
study
the
matter
and
to
take
another
15
months
or
two
years
to
look
into
it
in
depth
?
{sent}
when
the
hon.
member
was
in
opposition
he
was
suggesting
that
this
was
one
of
the
greatest
threats
to
civil
liberties
in
the
country
.
{sent}
why
,
all
of
a
sudden
,
is
the
hon.
member
saying
now
that
the
government
needs
more
time
to
study
?
{sent}
how
can
he
justify
the
reversal
of
his
policy
?
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
for
burnaby
(
mr.
robinson
)
is
a
master
of
hyperbole
.
{sent}
he
talks
about
hypocrisy
.
{sent}
as
he
sits
in
his
social
subsidized
housing
in
vancouver
,
as
reported
on
television
last
night
,
he
ought
to
use
the
facilities
of
the
taxpayers
of
canada
who
have
given
to
him
--
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
at
$
54,000
a
year
he
is
in
subsidized
housing
?
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
what
that
has
to
do
with
the
reply
--
{sent}
mr.
mayer
:
what
has
the
question
got
to
do
with
the
motion
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
is
in
social
housing
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
vancouver-kingsway
(
mr.
waddell
)
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
we
are
waiting
for
the
answer
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
surrey-white
rock-north
delta
(
mr.
friesen
)
was
trying
to
complete
an
answer
on
regulations
and
statutory
instruments
.
{sent}
we
are
getting
into
some
high
level
debate
which
has
nothing
to
do
with
today
's
debate
.
{sent}
i
will
allow
the
hon.
member
for
surrey-white
rock-north
delta
to
terminate
whatever
he
was
going
to
say
so
that
we
can
get
to
further
questions
and
comments
.
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
simply
responding
to
part
of
the
statement
made
by
the
hon.
member
for
burnaby
(
mr.
robinson
)
accusing
the
government
of
hypocrisy
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
accusing
the
member
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
what
are
you
doing
in
government
?
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
we
have
no
less
commitment
to
doing
away
with
that
provision
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
might
want
to
scotch-tape
policies
together
and
cut
and
paste
,
but
we
are
not
satisfied
with
that
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
can
rest
assured
that
the
government
will
do
that
.
{sent}
i
fail
to
understand
the
member
's
point
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
he
,
like
us
in
this
house
,
was
advised
on
january
18
.
{sent}
i
happen
to
have
some
dossiers
here
.
{sent}
let
me
read
part
of
a
letter
dated
january
17
.
{sent}
dear
member
of
parliament
:
{sent}
that
officially
gave
us
information
on
january
18
about
what
the
government
's
intentions
were
with
regard
to
the
implementation
of
the
program
.
{sent}
mr.
mcdermid
:
nonsense
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
it
is
not
nonsense
.
{sent}
the
letter
is
dated
and
it
is
signed
by
dennis
orchard
,
director
,
home
energy
programs
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
this
is
a
question
and
comment
period
and
the
questions
and
comments
are
to
be
directed
to
the
hon.
member
who
just
finished
speaking
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
has
been
here
a
long
time
and
realizes
that
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
just
informing
the
member
that
i
have
a
document
dated
january
17
,
1985
,
indicating
that
the
program
would
be
terminated
on
december
31
,
1984
.
{sent}
how
can
the
member
say
that
it
is
frivolous
for
a
committee
of
the
house
,
which
has
to
review
regulations
,
to
come
before
the
house
and
report
that
there
has
been
an
irregularity
?
{sent}
that
has
nothing
to
do
with
a
november
9
statement
in
which
the
government
said
it
would
phase
it
out
.
{sent}
this
has
to
do
with
an
announcement
made
by
the
government
through
press
releases
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
the
government
operates
by
press
releases
rather
than
order
in
council
and
regulations
duly
adopted
by
the
government
.
{sent}
i
fail
to
understand
what
is
so
frivolous
about
that
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
a
serious
point
.
{sent}
the
point
of
the
debate
this
morning
was
to
ensure
that
the
government
did
not
repeat
the
procedure
of
passing
regulations
after
the
fact
.
{sent}
what
does
the
member
think
is
frivolous
about
that
?
{sent}
what
is
so
frivolous
about
asking
a
government
to
operate
in
a
good
and
legal
manner
?
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
there
is
nothing
frivolous
about
trying
to
keep
the
government
on
its
toes
.
{sent}
that
is
the
job
of
that
committee
and
it
ought
to
do
it
with
vigour
and
it
ought
to
report
its
findings
to
the
house
.
{sent}
however
,
i
seriously
question
the
need
to
debate
,
for
two
hours
,
a
report
on
a
program
which
is
no
longer
in
force
.
{sent}
there
is
no
way
to
turn
the
calendar
back
.
{sent}
we
ought
not
to
have
government
by
press
release
.
{sent}
however
,
this
was
not
;
it
was
simply
forewarning
.
{sent}
the
government
did
file
the
necessary
orders
in
council
.
{sent}
if
members
were
really
serious
about
this
report
they
would
have
had
concurrence
in
the
committee
to
file
this
report
,
including
standing
order
44
,
which
would
have
called
upon
the
government
to
rescind
.
{sent}
the
very
fact
that
they
did
not
implement
the
provisions
which
have
muscle
indicates
that
they
were
not
very
serious
about
the
report
in
that
sense
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
unfortunate
that
we
have
spent
two
hours
debating
something
which
cannot
be
changed
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
did
the
hon.
member
receive
any
applications
for
this
grant
between
january
1
and
january
17
in
his
office
in
surrey
?
{sent}
if
he
did
,
what
did
he
tell
the
people
?
{sent}
were
they
eligible
for
60
per
cent
or
33
per
cent
?
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
i
thank
the
member
for
thinking
that
i
have
an
encyclopedic
and
photographic
memory
,
but
i
cannot
answer
that
question
.
{sent}
mr.
len
gustafson
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
has
been
suggested
that
in
the
phasing
out
of
the
canadian
home
insulation
program
some
householders
were
treated
unfairly
.
{sent}
nothing
can
be
further
from
the
truth
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
that
the
minister
and
her
officials
made
special
provisions
in
the
phasing
out
process
to
ensure
complete
fairness
for
homeowners
.
{sent}
the
plain
and
simple
reality
is
that
the
actions
taken
by
the
hon.
minister
were
well
within
her
mandate
and
84,000
additional
households
qualified
for
the
chip
grants
because
of
the
minister
's
concern
for
fairness
.
{sent}
the
concern
of
the
minister
for
the
additional
householders
during
this
transition
period
should
be
significantly
noted
.
{sent}
the
phasing
out
of
the
canadian
home
insulation
program
was
undertaken
with
fairness
and
market
responsiveness
as
top
priorities
after
consultation
with
the
insulation
industry
.
{sent}
the
facts
are
these
.
{sent}
on
november
9
,
1984
,
the
minister
announced
that
the
lower
rate
of
contribution
would
be
implemented
effective
january
1
,
1985
.
{sent}
this
registration
process
was
available
until
december
31
,
1984
,
and
the
work
had
to
be
completed
by
march
31
,
1985
.
{sent}
this
ability
to
register
was
a
special
provision
not
contained
in
the
standard
rules
of
the
program
and
was
evidence
of
the
government
's
willingness
to
be
fair
and
flexible
.
{sent}
on
january
17
,
1985
,
the
order
in
council
was
passed
enacting
the
change
to
the
regulations
.
{sent}
until
january
17
,
1985
,
all
applications
received
,
accompanied
by
proof
of
work
done
,
were
eligible
for
the
60
per
cent
level
of
contribution
.
{sent}
the
minister
's
objective
was
to
devise
an
orderly
,
fair
,
and
flexible
phase-out
of
the
chip
program
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
not
only
is
the
hon.
member
reading
his
speech
,
which
is
against
the
rules
,
but
he
is
reading
the
same
speech
which
the
parliamentary
secretary
gave
.
{sent}
that
is
not
debate
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
that
is
out
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
it
's
the
same
speech
.
{sent}
he
reads
better
than
the
parliamentary
secretary
.
{sent}
mr.
gustafson
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
situation
in
the
house
is
that
the
opposition
is
wasting
time
after
the
minister
acted
in
the
best
interests
of
the
people
of
the
country
.
{sent}
if
you
will
allow
me
,
i
will
continue
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
rise
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
refers
to
the
opposition
wasting
time
.
{sent}
the
conservative
members
of
the
committee
unanimously
supported
this
report
and
i
hope
the
parliamentary
secretary
will
correct
that
reference
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
that
is
not
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
no
,
but
it
is
a
good
point
to
keep
in
mind
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
hope
hon.
members
will
allow
the
hon.
parliamentary
secretary
to
continue
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
if
he
wants
to
call
it
one
o'clock
,
we
will
agree
.
{sent}
mr.
gustafson
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
policies
and
the
minister
's
methods
for
implementing
the
phase-out
process
are
both
fair
and
just
.
{sent}
those
are
the
facts
.
{sent}
the
minister
and
her
officials
were
sensitive
to
the
realities
in
the
market-place
during
the
phasing-out
period
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
that
the
industry
would
not
have
been
able
to
meet
the
increased
demand
for
insulation
work
.
{sent}
therefore
,
a
special
provision
was
made
.
{sent}
the
industry
benefited
and
so
did
the
consumers
of
canada
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
point
out
a
misunderstanding
in
the
second
paragraph
of
section
3
of
the
committee
's
report
.
{sent}
this
information
was
provided
in
response
to
a
completely
different
question
concerning
the
number
of
applicants
who
had
attempted
to
register
after
december
31
,
1984
.
{sent}
i
see
that
my
time
is
up
,
mr.
speaker
,
and
i
would
just
like
to
say
that
the
minister
acted
in
the
best
interests
of
the
consumers
of
canada
and
we
are
proud
of
that
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
hon.
parliamentary
secretary
's
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
it
being
one
o'clock
,
i
do
now
leave
the
chair
until
two
o'clock
this
day
.
{sent}
at
1
p.m.
the
house
took
recess
.
{sent}
s.o.
21
{sent}
after
recess
{sent}
the
house
resumed
at
2
p.m.
{sent}
statements
pursuant
to
s.o.
21
{sent}
income
tax
{sent}
tax
returns
--
information
needed
by
taxpayers
{sent}
mr.
alfonso
gagliano
(
saint-léonard
--
anjou
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
today
,
the
minister
of
national
revenue
(
mr.
mackay
)
has
announced
measures
that
will
help
employees
responsible
for
answering
inquiries
.
{sent}
the
minister
indicated
that
taxpayers
must
be
able
to
count
on
revenue
canada
providing
accurate
information
to
help
them
complete
their
income
tax
returns
.
{sent}
the
minister
announced
a
number
of
measures
that
will
help
his
employees
achieve
this
goal
.
{sent}
measures
that
will
be
implemented
next
year
!
{sent}
who
is
going
to
help
taxpayers
who
have
yet
to
file
their
returns
,
now
they
only
have
eight
days
left
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
who
is
going
to
pay
the
interest
on
the
mistakes
canadians
are
going
to
make
in
filing
their
returns
because
revenue
canada
doesn't
know
the
answers
and
gives
the
wrong
information
?
{sent}
not
a
word
about
that
from
the
minister
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
i
trust
he
will
come
back
with
another
press
release
to
deal
with
this
particular
point
.
{sent}
health
{sent}
pelvic
inflammatory
disease
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
well
known
that
pelvic
inflammatory
disease
is
a
silent
epidemic
which
has
swept
across
canada
.
{sent}
in
1982
over
140,000
canadian
women
were
treated
for
this
disease
and
the
number
increases
each
year
.
{sent}
despite
these
terrifying
figures
,
there
exists
a
deep
silence
regarding
this
disease
and
its
consequences
of
infertility
and
disability
.
{sent}
this
has
resulted
in
no
major
research
on
the
disease
being
conducted
in
canada
.
{sent}
pensions
{sent}
federal
penitentiary
employees
--
early
retirement
after
twenty-five
years
of
service
{sent}
the
house
will
understand
that
this
is
a
matter
of
particular
concern
to
me
,
since
i
have
five
federal
penitentiaries
in
my
riding
as
well
as
the
only
training
centre
for
francophone
prison
guards
in
canada
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
early
retirement
is
of
vital
importance
to
people
who
have
been
exposed
to
high-stress
working
conditions
for
so
many
years
.
{sent}
status
of
women
{sent}
improvements
achieved
through
government
measures
{sent}
mr.
geoff
wilson
(
swift
current
--
maple
creek
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
economic
and
social
equality
for
women
is
a
priority
of
the
government
.
{sent}
between
september
,
1984
,
and
march
,
1986
,
some
293,000
jobs
for
women
were
created
.
{sent}
unemployment
among
women
has
fallen
by
1.9
per
cent
since
september
,
1984
.
{sent}
contrast
that
with
the
last
term
of
our
predecessors
wherein
it
rose
by
3.4
per
cent
.
{sent}
most
promising
of
all
,
this
government
will
continue
to
build
on
these
accomplishments
and
not
rest
until
complete
equality
for
women
is
a
reality
in
our
country
.
{sent}
national
revenue
{sent}
reported
closing
of
company
for
failure
to
pay
taxes
{sent}
ms.
sheila
copps
(
hamilton
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
government
talks
about
consultation
concerning
revenue
canada
.
{sent}
we
heard
the
former
critic
of
the
minister
being
very
hard
on
the
government
.
{sent}
is
this
a
government
that
cares
?
{sent}
is
this
a
minister
of
national
revenue
(
mr.
mackay
)
who
listens
not
only
to
the
opposition
but
to
his
own
members
?
{sent}
i
urge
the
minister
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
energy
{sent}
assistance
urged
for
oil
industry
{sent}
mr.
paul
gagnon
(
calgary
north
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
collapse
of
oil
prices
has
created
a
crisis
in
calgary
.
{sent}
for
example
,
the
unemployment
insurance
claims
centres
are
working
68
hours
a
week
to
process
the
avalanche
of
claims
.
{sent}
if
one
compares
the
past
seven
weeks
with
last
year
's
figures
,
the
claims
are
up
57.5
per
cent
--
yes
,
mr.
speaker
,
up
57.5
per
cent
--
to
a
total
of
16,400
claims
.
{sent}
these
are
16,400
stories
of
despair
,
of
broken
dreams
,
of
hardship
and
being
forced
to
move
.
{sent}
the
government
must
act
,
and
act
now
to
aid
this
industry
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
russian
army
defectors
in
afghanistan
--
sponsorship
offer
{sent}
the
action
group
is
prepared
to
support
one
of
the
six
,
egon
kovalchuk
,
and
to
take
full
responsibility
for
his
well-being
in
canada
.
{sent}
it
is
actively
looking
for
other
ethno-cultural
groups
to
sponsor
the
other
five
.
{sent}
the
group
believes
that
a
major
injustice
has
been
done
in
raising
the
expectations
of
these
defectors
that
they
would
be
able
to
come
to
canada
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
the
government
's
mishandling
of
their
case
has
left
them
marooned
in
rebel
held
territory
.
{sent}
this
sincere
offer
made
by
concerned
canadians
demonstrates
public
support
for
the
rescue
of
these
six
men
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
employment
{sent}
small
businesses
--
youth
--
government
position
{sent}
mr.
michel
champagne
(
champlain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
take
a
concrete
example
and
prove
to
the
house
that
money
invested
by
our
government
in
the
riding
of
champlain
is
benefitting
the
entire
population
.
{sent}
two
hundred
and
twenty
million
dollars
were
given
to
the
cle
company
in
champlain
to
be
used
as
loans
for
small
businesses
.
{sent}
this
amount
has
generated
investments
that
are
vital
to
the
economy
of
our
region
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
over
$
1
million
has
been
generated
by
our
businesses
and
financial
institutions
to
provide
permanent
and
durable
jobs
for
our
people
.
{sent}
administration
of
justice
{sent}
assistance
required
by
victims
of
crime
{sent}
mr.
dave
nickerson
(
western
arctic
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
often
within
our
criminal
justice
system
it
is
the
victim
of
crime
who
is
neglected
.
{sent}
it
is
the
criminal
who
is
accorded
the
rights
and
privileges
of
the
law
and
the
victim
who
is
forgotten
.
{sent}
both
the
minister
of
justice
(
mr.
crosbie
)
and
the
solicitor
general
(
mr.
beatty
)
are
aware
of
this
and
are
to
be
congratulated
on
their
recent
initiatives
.
{sent}
similar
congratulations
are
due
to
those
police
forces
which
have
established
units
to
aid
victims
of
crime
.
{sent}
let
us
hope
that
in
the
future
victims
will
have
much
easier
access
to
the
assistance
and
advice
which
ought
to
be
their
due
,
and
that
their
interests
will
be
no
longer
cast
aside
.
{sent}
canadian
national
railways
{sent}
moncton
shops
--
effects
of
possible
closure
{sent}
for
almost
a
year
now
it
has
been
apparent
that
the
federal
government
is
going
to
abandon
1,200
workers
employed
there
.
{sent}
the
government
has
steadfastly
refused
to
guarantee
that
the
shops
would
be
kept
open
and
that
the
jobs
would
be
maintained
.
{sent}
it
is
time
for
the
government
to
take
some
positive
action
for
the
people
of
moncton
,
and
for
the
workers
at
the
cn
shops
in
particular
.
{sent}
organ
donor
awareness
week
{sent}
tribute
to
medical
profession
{sent}
this
is
organ
donor
awareness
week
.
{sent}
it
is
our
prayer
that
all
canadians
will
be
made
more
aware
of
the
magnificent
progress
achieved
by
the
medical
profession
in
the
success
rate
of
organ
recipients
.
{sent}
the
battle
will
be
won
and
our
prayers
will
be
answered
when
the
waiting
list
for
organ
transplants
is
reduced
to
zero
.
{sent}
sports
{sent}
victory
of
andré
viger
at
boston
{sent}
this
international
achievement
honours
canada
,
and
we
may
be
justly
proud
of
the
success
of
this
athlete
,
a
quebecer
and
a
canadian
.
{sent}
speaking
for
myself
and
on
behalf
of
my
colleagues
in
the
house
of
commons
,
i
wish
to
offer
andré
viger
our
sincere
congratulations
.
{sent}
the
economy
{sent}
criticism
of
government
policies
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
this
afternoon
we
heard
two
earnest
pleas
from
conservative
back-benchers
.
{sent}
i
wonder
if
these
hon.
members
do
not
recognize
that
the
very
things
about
which
they
complain
are
a
part
of
the
conservative
free
enterprise
policy
of
the
government
of
which
they
are
supporters
.
{sent}
perhaps
they
would
do
well
to
realize
that
the
very
things
about
which
they
are
most
concerned
are
brought
about
by
the
policies
introduced
by
the
government
.
{sent}
i
wonder
who
they
think
they
are
kidding
.
{sent}
energy
{sent}
petroleum
and
gas
revenue
tax
--
call
for
removal
{sent}
the
petroleum
gas
revenue
tax
,
a
liberal
tax
which
was
imposed
years
ago
,
is
still
charged
on
the
production
of
oil
from
the
syncrude
project
.
{sent}
i
urge
all
members
of
the
house
to
consider
this
matter
very
carefully
.
{sent}
i
urge
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
(
miss
carney
)
to
consider
removing
the
petroleum
and
gas
revenue
tax
from
all
oil
sands
development
projects
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
request
for
protection
of
farmers
{sent}
mr.
stan
j.
hovdebo
(
prince
albert
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
western
grain
producers
are
asking
for
a
fair
deal
.
{sent}
they
are
asking
the
government
to
give
them
the
necessary
support
so
that
they
can
compete
fairly
with
american
producers
.
{sent}
they
are
asking
for
the
same
return
on
a
bushel
of
canadian
grain
as
on
that
for
a
bushel
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
they
ask
that
the
government
protect
canadian
farmers
to
the
same
extent
that
the
u.s.
government
protects
american
farmers
.
{sent}
is
that
too
much
for
them
to
ask
?
{sent}
energy
{sent}
rescinding
of
tax
advocated
{sent}
after
all
,
why
does
he
complain
to
the
house
of
commons
?
{sent}
he
should
be
complaining
to
his
own
government
,
since
it
is
the
one
imposing
taxes
these
days
.
{sent}
oral
questions
{sent}
oral
question
period
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
president
's
letter
to
u.s.
senators
{sent}
i
ask
the
prime
minister
what
those
words
of
the
president
mean
.
{sent}
have
we
,
in
effect
,
sacrificed
the
independence
of
our
foreign
policy
in
order
to
buy
an
affirmative
vote
on
this
issue
?
{sent}
the
statement
of
the
president
of
the
united
states
was
quite
forthcoming
.
{sent}
he
views
canada
as
a
reliable
ally
,
and
that
is
the
way
we
want
it
to
be
.
{sent}
we
do
give
our
friends
the
benefit
of
the
doubt
.
{sent}
prime
minister
's
discussions
with
united
states
president
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
our
prime
minister
is
deliberately
trying
to
avoid
revealing
the
substance
of
conversations
and
talks
that
transpired
between
him
and
the
president
of
the
united
states
.
{sent}
has
he
perhaps
agreed
to
remain
silent
on
world
affairs
until
he
gets
an
affirmative
vote
before
the
u.s.
senate
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
suggestion
is
unworthy
and
odious
.
{sent}
canadian
lumber
exports
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
prime
minister
refused
to
participate
in
a
recent
debate
.
{sent}
we
wonder
about
the
reason
for
his
silence
.
{sent}
dave
,
we
'll
get
timber
fixed
.
{sent}
has
the
canadian
government
conveyed
to
the
president
or
the
u.s.
trade
representative
the
intention
that
lumber
will
be
fixed
?
{sent}
have
we
got
ourselves
into
a
position
in
which
the
prime
minister
is
really
in
the
president
's
back
pocket
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
leader
of
the
opposition
goes
from
one
elegant
point
to
another
.
{sent}
the
fact
of
the
matter
is
that
,
as
with
all
canadian
governments
,
we
have
conducted
the
affairs
of
this
country
in
the
national
interest
at
all
times
and
in
all
circumstances
.
{sent}
this
initiative
is
under
way
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
we
do
not
know
how
it
will
end
.
{sent}
it
is
designed
to
benefit
canada
,
to
create
new
jobs
,
to
lower
the
unemployment
rate
,
and
to
bring
new
prosperity
and
opportunities
to
canadians
.
{sent}
we
have
always
said
that
a
good
deal
for
canada
is
a
fair
deal
for
our
partners
,
and
if
it
is
good
for
us
it
has
to
be
good
for
them
.
{sent}
that
is
the
way
we
view
life
,
and
we
think
that
is
the
way
to
view
it
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
russian
army
defectors
in
afghanistan
{sent}
can
the
minister
confirm
that
discussion
with
the
publisher
?
{sent}
when
will
he
meet
with
mr.
davies
?
{sent}
can
he
assure
the
house
that
,
with
that
information
,
he
will
immediately
instruct
his
officials
to
travel
to
afghanistan
in
order
to
give
freedom
to
those
six
courageous
young
men
?
{sent}
in
answer
to
questions
in
the
house
yesterday
,
i
indicated
that
we
would
be
prepared
to
discuss
with
journalists
involved
any
co-operation
which
might
bring
those
six
soviets
to
canada
.
{sent}
oppressed
prisoners'
permit
program
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
thank
the
minister
for
his
projected
consultations
.
{sent}
however
,
yesterday
he
said
that
there
was
no
instrument
that
could
be
used
to
bring
those
individuals
here
.
{sent}
canadian
officials
from
the
minister
's
department
still
wish
to
give
urine
tests
to
these
six
individuals
in
pakistan
.
{sent}
that
is
unfair
.
{sent}
will
the
minister
bring
them
here
and
process
them
from
here
?
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
problem
is
not
on
this
side
of
the
border
.
{sent}
that
is
the
difficulty
.
{sent}
what
i
have
just
indicated
to
the
house
is
that
i
had
discussions
which
i
think
might
yield
the
release
to
freedom
in
canada
of
those
six
soviet
prisoners
of
war
.
{sent}
certainly
it
is
clear
that
that
is
what
the
editor
and
the
journalists
of
the
kingston
whig-standard
want
.
{sent}
we
are
prepared
to
work
together
.
{sent}
i
trust
we
will
have
the
co-operation
of
the
house
of
commons
in
trying
to
bring
those
six
soviet
prisoners
of
war
to
freedom
in
canada
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
lumber
exports
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
wheeling
and
dealing
in
washington
continue
to
go
on
.
{sent}
what
secret
assurance
is
going
to
cost
our
lumber
producers
?
{sent}
come
out
with
some
answers
which
give
us
an
indication
,
please
.
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
none
was
given
,
as
my
hon.
friend
knows
,
nor
would
any
be
given
.
{sent}
president
's
letter
to
u.s.
senators
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
suppose
he
would
have
to
ask
president
reagan
inasmuch
as
he
wrote
the
letter
.
{sent}
however
,
i
know
it
will
astonish
the
ndp
that
we
,
the
government
of
canada
,
seek
to
obtain
a
good
deal
for
canada
in
any
trading
arrangement
we
enter
into
.
{sent}
we
are
satisfied
that
the
longer
term
interests
of
the
country
require
that
a
good
deal
for
canada
also
produces
benefits
for
our
trading
partners
.
{sent}
possible
lumber
production
losses
--
government
position
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
supplementary
.
{sent}
could
the
prime
minister
at
least
show
that
he
is
worried
and
concerned
about
all
these
indications
of
potential
losses
for
our
lumber
production
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
the
hon.
member
would
be
more
successful
as
a
writer
for
the
soaps
.
{sent}
i
may
point
out
to
him
that
we
have
expressed
every
possible
objection
and
made
every
possible
representation
with
respect
to
the
lumber
problem
.
{sent}
that
is
as
difficult
and
as
controversial
as
it
will
get
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
russian
army
defectors
in
afghanistan
{sent}
i
should
like
to
ask
the
minister
very
directly
why
the
mission
,
which
had
originally
been
given
the
green
light
by
his
department
,
was
aborted
.
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
first
of
all
the
hon.
member
should
not
believe
all
that
she
reads
,
or
all
that
she
says
.
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
absolutely
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
even
the
whig-standard
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
there
are
some
very
practical
problems
on
the
ground
that
have
to
do
with
jurisdictions
of
other
countries
,
and
that
have
to
do
with
the
attitude
of
the
people
who
are
now
presumably
in
control
of
those
six
prisoners
of
war
.
{sent}
we
believe
we
may
have
a
way
to
resolve
the
problem
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
that
it
will
not
be
jeopardized
by
irresponsible
behaviour
in
this
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
canada-u.s.s.r.
relations
{sent}
ms.
sheila
copps
(
hamilton
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
don't
think
it
behooves
the
secretary
of
state
to
be
so
smug
about
the
fact
that
it
took
three
journalists
--
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
order
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
--
if
it
hadn't
been
for
three
journalists
from
the
kingston
whig-standard
,
these
people
would
be
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
my
question
is
for
the
secretary
of
state
.
{sent}
i
want
a
direct
answer
.
{sent}
there
was
a
statement
made
on
public
television
last
night
that
the
reason
--
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
order
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
has
a
question
,
i
think
,
now
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
:
does
the
minister
deny
the
reason
the
mission
was
scotched
was
because
he
wanted
to
improve
relationships
before
his
trip
to
the
soviet
union
in
april
,
1985
?
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
deny
that
categorically
.
{sent}
let
me
also
say
that
i
have
had
some
experience
before
with
canadian
actions
that
might
bring
people
from
captivity
to
freedom
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
lumber
exports
to
united
states
{sent}
a
senior-level
u.s.
delegation
is
today
meeting
in
ottawa
on
this
problem
.
{sent}
it
is
imperative
that
we
resolve
this
issue
quickly
,
and
this
administration
will
spare
no
effort
to
accomplish
that
.
{sent}
is
the
prime
minister
today
telling
this
house
that
there
were
no
proposals
made
to
canada
at
that
meeting
a
week
ago
here
in
ottawa
?
{sent}
if
my
hon.
friend
is
asking
whether
there
was
a
proposal
or
a
suggestion
that
impacted
on
any
decision
in
regard
to
the
vote
before
the
u.s.
senate
,
the
answer
is
no
.
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
earlier
in
the
question
period
the
prime
minister
alluded
that
there
might
be
free
trade
in
lumber
.
{sent}
there
has
been
free
trade
between
canada
and
the
united
states
for
the
last
40
years
.
{sent}
would
the
prime
minister
tell
this
house
and
tell
canadians
just
exactly
what
further
discussions
on
free
trade
in
lumber
will
bring
about
?
{sent}
freer
free
trade
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
don't
know
how
funny
the
people
in
british
columbia
will
find
that
.
{sent}
unlike
the
ndp
,
people
know
there
are
members
of
the
united
states
senate
determined
to
cripple
british
columbia
's
forest
resource
industries
and
we
are
opposed
to
that
.
{sent}
that
is
why
we
are
taking
the
position
that
we
are
on
behalf
of
the
british
columbia
forest
producers
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
what
position
?
{sent}
canadian
national
railways
{sent}
lay-offs
at
moncton
shops
{sent}
mr.
dave
dingwall
(
cape
breton
--
east
richmond
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
transport
.
{sent}
last
august
the
minister
assured
the
member
of
parliament
for
moncton
that
he
could
not
``
support
any
massive
reduction
in
the
cn
workforce
in
moncton
''
.
{sent}
that
is
a
pretty
good
proportion
of
the
workforce
of
cn
to
be
allocated
to
one
region
.
{sent}
i
think
the
hon.
member
is
referring
to
the
shop
situation
.
{sent}
as
he
knows
,
there
are
three
main
shops
in
canada
.
{sent}
there
is
excess
capacity
.
{sent}
cn
is
undertaking
to
review
the
excess
capacity
and
to
try
to
make
the
adjustments
commensurate
with
the
workload
and
the
type
of
work
which
has
to
be
carried
out
across
the
country
.
{sent}
request
that
minister
issue
instructions
to
cn
board
{sent}
is
the
minister
going
to
live
up
to
his
commitment
,
or
is
he
going
to
abdicate
his
responsibilities
as
minister
of
transport
?
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
repeat
that
there
are
over
4,000
people
employed
by
cn
in
the
greater
moncton
area
.
{sent}
i
do
take
this
matter
very
seriously
,
and
that
is
why
there
are
no
precipitous
decisions
being
made
.
{sent}
we
are
trying
to
work
the
problem
through
to
provide
a
long-term
future
for
the
people
there
commensurate
with
the
realities
of
railroading
in
our
country
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
fishermen
's
unemployment
insurance
{sent}
mr.
rod
murphy
(
churchill
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
the
minister
responsible
for
monitoring
canada
am
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
you
finally
found
a
job
for
your
talents
,
joe
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
is
that
before
you
go
to
bed
or
after
you
get
up
?
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
you
are
under-qualified
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
so
that
's
what
you
do
.
{sent}
mr.
clark
(
yellowhead
)
:
mr.
deans
,
that
's
what
i
do
.
{sent}
what
do
you
do
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
we
try
to
get
answers
to
questions
.
{sent}
statement
attributed
to
canadian
negotiator
{sent}
is
he
aware
of
that
?
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
that
's
called
hearsay
.
{sent}
administration
of
justice
{sent}
prosecution
of
journalist
for
airport
activities
{sent}
does
the
prime
minister
consider
it
proper
for
the
minister
of
justice
,
outside
this
house
and
before
the
trial
of
mr.
de
la
grange
,
to
declare
him
to
be
guilty
of
a
criminal
act
?
{sent}
it
is
a
municipal
prosecution
undertaken
by
the
municipality
in
that
area
.
{sent}
only
the
attorney
general
of
quebec
can
intervene
in
the
matter
,
if
he
so
wishes
.
{sent}
mr.
guilbault
(
saint-jacques
)
:
you
'll
call
him
guilty
then
.
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
i
haven't
found
anybody
guilty
or
not
guilty
.
{sent}
i
find
the
hon.
gentleman
guilty
of
lamentable
ignorance
in
bringing
the
matter
up
as
he
did
.
{sent}
mr.
kaplan
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
not
asking
questions
about
the
actual
prosecution
.
{sent}
as
usual
,
the
minister
is
wrong
.
{sent}
the
canadian
security
intelligence
service
act
gives
him
the
authority
and
responsibility
for
cases
like
this
,
if
he
wants
to
take
it
.
{sent}
ministerial
responsibility
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
the
case
at
hand
i
find
in
favour
of
the
minister
of
justice
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
you
're
not
on
the
bench
yet
,
brian
.
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
that
's
a
relief
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
it
's
also
a
surprise
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
lumber
exports
to
united
states
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
right
hon.
prime
minister
.
{sent}
in
his
response
to
my
colleague
,
the
member
for
skeena
,
he
indicated
that
the
government
has
a
very
clear
position
regarding
softwood
lumber
exports
to
the
united
states
to
protect
the
canadian
forest
industry
.
{sent}
would
the
prime
minister
simply
explain
what
position
the
canadian
government
holds
regarding
softwood
lumber
?
{sent}
hon.
james
kelleher
(
minister
for
international
trade
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
position
of
the
government
of
canada
is
very
clear
on
this
matter
.
{sent}
we
do
not
,
in
any
way
,
accept
the
contention
of
the
americans
that
we
are
in
any
way
subsidizing
our
industry
,
either
through
stumpage
fees
or
other
methods
.
{sent}
pharmaceutical
industry
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
supplementary
question
is
also
with
regard
to
the
free
trade
issue
.
{sent}
in
response
to
the
pharmaceutical
industry
lobby
in
the
united
states
the
national
association
of
manufacturers
said
the
following
in
their
testimony
:
``
the
united
states
government
has
received
repeated
assurances
--
''
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
does
the
hon.
member
have
a
question
?
{sent}
mr.
riis
:
my
question
is
to
the
right
hon.
prime
minister
.
{sent}
is
it
true
that
assurances
have
been
given
?
{sent}
hon.
james
kelleher
(
minister
for
international
trade
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
no
assurances
have
been
given
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
crop
insurance
--
recreational
seeding
inquiry
{sent}
mr.
geoff
wilson
(
swift
current
--
maple
creek
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
agriculture
.
{sent}
there
is
a
very
real
concern
that
this
spring
some
prairie
farmers
will
indulge
in
what
they
call
``
recreational
seeding
''
.
{sent}
hon.
john
wise
(
minister
of
agriculture
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
some
of
us
may
find
the
term
``
recreational
seeding
''
,
which
the
hon.
member
used
,
to
be
somewhat
interesting
.
{sent}
i
share
his
concern
and
appreciate
the
representations
he
is
making
.
{sent}
the
federal-provincial
crop
insurance
program
has
worked
extremely
well
.
{sent}
we
want
to
ensure
that
that
program
is
widely
used
,
but
we
must
take
all
steps
possible
to
ensure
that
the
program
is
not
misused
.
{sent}
i
can
assure
the
hon.
member
that
i
will
communicate
his
concerns
to
my
provincial
counterparts
.
{sent}
external
affairs
{sent}
libya
--
advice
to
canadians
to
leave
country
{sent}
hon.
donald
j.
johnston
(
saint-henri
--
westmount
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
.
{sent}
last
week
he
advised
canadians
in
libya
to
use
their
own
judgment
on
whether
they
should
leave
libya
.
{sent}
the
deputy
prime
minister
said
in
the
house
:
``
there
is
no
immediate
threat
to
canadians
''
.
{sent}
with
no
apparent
change
in
circumstances
,
the
government
is
now
telling
canadians
to
leave
.
{sent}
why
has
there
been
this
reversal
?
{sent}
why
did
he
not
advise
canadians
to
leave
last
week
?
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
there
has
been
no
reversal
in
the
advice
given
by
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
there
has
been
no
reversal
on
this
question
at
all
on
this
side
of
the
house
.
{sent}
we
have
consistently
been
making
clear
to
canadians
our
judgment
about
the
instability
of
the
situation
in
libya
.
{sent}
as
i
indicated
to
journalists
who
asked
this
question
outside
the
house
yesterday
,
while
there
is
a
period
of
relative
calm
now
,
there
is
no
guarantee
that
that
calm
will
continue
.
{sent}
even
with
all
of
our
contingency
plans
,
we
cannot
guarantee
that
we
will
be
able
to
come
to
the
aid
of
each
canadian
in
that
very
large
country
.
{sent}
for
that
reason
i
extended
the
advice
of
the
government
of
canada
that
canadians
now
in
libya
should
leave
.
{sent}
presence
of
canadian
companies
in
libya
{sent}
we
have
done
what
we
can
do
.
{sent}
we
have
taken
one
action
regarding
the
export
of
certain
kinds
of
canadian
oil
drilling
equipment
with
particular
western
technology
.
{sent}
the
prime
minister
has
made
it
very
clear
that
we
are
prepared
to
consider
other
actions
in
concert
with
other
countries
.
{sent}
i
think
it
is
important
for
the
house
of
commons
to
recognize
that
the
american
action
the
other
day
was
taken
because
they
saw
no
alternative
.
{sent}
what
is
essential
now
for
canada
and
other
countries
interested
in
stability
is
that
we
work
together
to
find
alternative
ways
to
deal
with
states
which
encourage
terrorism
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
request
for
deficiency
payment
for
western
farmers
{sent}
mr.
stan
j.
hovdebo
(
prince
albert
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
responsible
for
the
wheat
board
.
{sent}
in
regina
yesterday
my
leader
,
the
hon.
member
for
humboldt
--
lake
centre
,
and
myself
met
with
senior
officials
of
some
western
farm
organizations
to
discuss
the
crisis
facing
canadian
farmers
.
{sent}
there
was
a
strong
consensus
among
those
organizations
that
a
deficiency
payment
is
needed
to
offset
the
losses
caused
by
low
prices
.
{sent}
hon.
charles
mayer
(
minister
of
state
(
canadian
wheat
board
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
since
as
far
back
as
the
beginning
of
february
we
have
been
meeting
with
farm
leaders
on
this
topic
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
agriculture
and
myself
had
a
chance
last
week
to
sit
down
with
cfa
officials
in
three
meetings
to
talk
about
this
very
issue
.
{sent}
we
are
monitoring
the
situation
in
line
with
what
the
prime
minister
has
said
,
that
we
would
like
to
do
more
,
and
in
line
with
our
fiscal
restraints
.
{sent}
international
grain
markets
{sent}
i
have
said
many
times
,
and
say
it
again
,
that
we
do
not
believe
what
the
europeans
and
americans
are
doing
is
useful
with
respect
to
prices
.
{sent}
the
canadian
wheat
board
has
an
excellent
reputation
as
a
reliable
supplier
of
high
quality
grain
.
{sent}
we
believe
that
will
assist
us
in
maintaining
our
markets
.
{sent}
the
larger
question
of
depressed
prices
remains
.
{sent}
we
are
doing
what
we
can
and
will
continue
to
monitor
the
situation
and
stay
abreast
of
developments
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
u.s.
senate
committee
meeting
{sent}
hon.
lloyd
axworthy
(
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
senator
dole
has
now
presented
a
new
alternative
to
try
to
break
the
impasse
.
{sent}
he
said
there
could
be
approval
for
tree
trade
fast-track
negotiations
subject
to
certain
conditions
,
one
being
that
canada
would
recognize
there
should
not
be
subsidies
for
exports
.
{sent}
if
that
is
the
basis
for
senate
approval
of
fast-track
negotiations
,
will
the
government
of
canada
accept
that
particular
notion
as
proposed
by
senator
dole
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
am
prepared
to
allow
the
answer
,
but
the
hon.
member
knows
it
is
very
hypothetical
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
he
has
introduced
the
resolution
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
can
the
hon.
member
find
a
way
to
phrase
it
which
is
not
hypothetical
?
{sent}
it
is
important
for
us
to
know
the
position
of
the
government
of
canada
.
{sent}
is
the
position
of
the
government
of
canada
simply
that
there
must
be
no
conditions
attached
,
as
opposed
to
the
question
of
the
resolution
put
forward
by
senator
dole
?
{sent}
corporate
affairs
{sent}
gulf
takeover
of
hiram
walker
{sent}
mr.
howard
mccurdy
(
windsor
--
walkerville
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
nine
families
control
53
per
cent
of
canadian
business
.
{sent}
request
that
takeover
be
blocked
{sent}
customs
and
excise
{sent}
effect
of
prolonged
inspections
on
tourism
{sent}
mr.
reginald
stackhouse
(
scarborough
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
national
revenue
.
{sent}
recent
reports
claim
that
prolonged
customs
inspections
at
the
peace
bridge
have
discouraged
large
numbers
of
american
tourists
from
visiting
ontario
.
{sent}
what
assurance
can
the
minister
give
that
there
will
not
be
unreasonable
delays
at
the
bridge
during
the
coming
tourist
season
?
{sent}
however
,
i
have
already
initiated
some
inquiries
into
the
matter
and
,
to
the
extent
we
can
properly
make
some
accommodations
,
we
will
make
every
attempt
to
carry
that
out
.
{sent}
health
{sent}
reported
pcb
leakage
from
hydro-quebec
installation
{sent}
hon.
chas.
l.
caccia
(
davenport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
.
{sent}
on
april
7
it
was
reported
that
for
two
years
pcbs
have
been
leaking
from
a
hydro-quebec
installation
into
the
sabrevois
river
which
in
turn
flows
into
the
st.
lawrence
.
{sent}
what
plan
does
the
minister
have
to
protect
public
health
from
contamination
of
drinking
water
by
toxic
chemicals
?
{sent}
the
situation
is
being
monitored
carefully
.
{sent}
the
information
i
have
is
that
there
is
no
immediate
health
hazard
or
danger
.
{sent}
however
,
the
department
and
officials
will
continue
to
monitor
the
situation
.
{sent}
request
for
introduction
of
safe
drinking
water
legislation
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
that
is
a
valid
suggestion
.
{sent}
we
are
examining
the
question
of
whether
,
if
we
go
that
route
,
what
should
be
the
provisions
to
cover
some
of
the
issues
which
,
under
present
regulations
and
legislation
,
have
not
been
covered
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
canadian
patent
law
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
also
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
we
have
been
told
that
is
not
true
.
{sent}
therefore
will
the
prime
minister
undertake
to
contact
all
of
the
members
of
that
committee
who
are
about
to
vote
on
a
very
crucial
question
and
inform
them
that
canada
has
no
such
intention
?
{sent}
canadian
position
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
not
exactly
sure
why
the
minister
feels
that
this
is
a
humorous
matter
.
{sent}
i
will
direct
my
supplementary
question
to
whomever
wants
to
answer
.
{sent}
it
makes
no
difference
to
me
,
as
long
as
someone
gets
up
and
says
something
.
{sent}
indian
affairs
{sent}
treaty
rights
of
indians
in
northeastern
alberta
{sent}
mr.
jack
shields
(
athabasca
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
indian
affairs
and
northern
development
.
{sent}
what
is
the
minister
doing
about
it
?
{sent}
hon.
david
crombie
(
minister
of
indian
affairs
and
northern
development
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
a
matter
that
has
been
brought
to
my
attention
.
{sent}
since
it
involves
treaty
rights
,
i
am
sure
the
hon.
member
and
other
hon.
members
are
aware
that
it
is
a
complicated
matter
.
{sent}
the
department
has
it
under
review
.
{sent}
national
revenue
{sent}
information
given
by
officials
to
taxpayers
{sent}
mr.
alfonso
gagliano
(
saint-léonard
--
anjou
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
national
revenue
.
{sent}
today
the
minister
outlined
the
measures
that
will
assist
staff
in
giving
the
right
answers
to
canadian
taxpayers
in
the
future
.
{sent}
we
regret
the
situation
where
performance
appears
to
be
lacking
somewhat
.
{sent}
however
,
upon
analysis
it
may
well
be
that
the
performance
is
not
as
bad
as
was
first
indicated
.
{sent}
in
any
event
,
as
the
hon.
member
knows
,
i
have
outlined
some
measures
that
we
are
taking
to
correct
the
situation
.
{sent}
i
can
assure
him
that
the
staff
has
been
interviewed
and
during
these
last
few
days
we
will
attempt
to
be
more
diligent
and
more
forthcoming
with
the
answers
we
are
giving
to
the
public
.
{sent}
request
that
government
not
seek
interest
payments
on
tax
return
mistakes
caused
by
provision
of
incorrect
information
{sent}
external
affairs
{sent}
afghanistan
--
united
nations
initiative
{sent}
my
question
is
essentially
a
supplementary
,
with
a
view
to
addressing
the
underlying
problem
of
the
conflict
in
afghanistan
.
{sent}
does
the
canadian
government
support
the
united
nations
initiative
and
proposal
that
were
presented
last
week
to
afghanistan
and
pakistan
regarding
the
withdrawal
of
soviet
troops
from
afghanistan
?
{sent}
naturally
,
we
intend
to
look
for
any
other
ways
,
if
any
can
be
found
,
whereby
canada
might
supplement
the
excellent
initiatives
taken
by
the
secretary
general
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
medical
examinations
of
prospective
immigrants
{sent}
mr.
george
baker
(
gander
--
twillingate
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
.
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
first
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
must
indicate
to
the
hon.
member
what
these
medical
officers
have
done
abroad
.
{sent}
it
is
not
a
matter
in
which
the
health
of
canadians
would
be
in
any
way
jeopardized
or
that
health
checks
will
not
be
carried
out
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
's
information
that
there
will
not
be
medical
doctors
of
canadian
citizenship
in
those
locations
is
correct
.
{sent}
as
we
have
done
for
many
years
,
we
will
have
medical
checks
performed
by
doctors
who
are
native
citizens
of
a
particular
country
.
{sent}
those
medical
examinations
will
still
take
place
and
be
checked
here
in
canada
,
as
is
done
in
many
other
countries
where
we
do
not
have
medical
doctors
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
this
is
long
.
{sent}
extension
of
visitors'
visas
without
medical
examinations
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
that
also
is
not
the
correct
interpretation
of
the
situation
.
{sent}
we
have
the
immigration
medical
review
board
on
which
a
number
of
provincial
representatives
sit
as
these
questions
are
discussed
and
decisions
are
taken
.
{sent}
for
example
,
manitoba
,
ontario
,
quebec
,
and
new
brunswick
are
on
that
board
at
this
time
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
should
be
careful
when
he
assesses
this
.
{sent}
we
receive
many
requests
from
members
to
ease
visitors'
entry
into
canada
because
of
regulations
in
other
countries
.
{sent}
that
is
one
side
.
{sent}
on
the
other
hand
we
have
a
responsibility
to
ensure
that
health
is
not
jeopardized
.
{sent}
when
we
see
what
has
been
done
with
the
department
of
employment
and
immigration
,
external
affairs
,
and
my
department
,
we
see
that
those
principles
remain
.
{sent}
they
have
not
been
jeopardized
in
any
way
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
finance
{sent}
tax
credit
requested
for
volunteer
workers
{sent}
mr.
bill
attewell
(
don
valley
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
hundreds
of
thousands
of
canadians
are
involved
in
volunteer
work
with
hospitals
,
charities
,
and
many
other
worthy
causes
.
{sent}
hon.
michael
wilson
(
minister
of
finance
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
government
values
very
much
the
work
of
the
volunteer
sector
and
has
taken
certain
steps
to
encourage
the
volunteer
sector
.
{sent}
i
suggest
that
the
hon.
member
's
proposal
involves
some
complexities
.
{sent}
it
does
lead
to
an
increased
administrative
burden
for
a
volunteer
organization
itself
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
certainly
a
worth-while
proposal
to
consider
,
and
i
will
do
that
.
{sent}
energy
{sent}
price
of
diesel
fuel
{sent}
mr.
ian
waddell
(
vancouver
--
kingsway
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
.
{sent}
one
of
my
constituents
runs
35
diesel
trucks
from
richmond
,
british
columbia
,
through
the
interior
of
b.c.
to
the
kootenays
.
{sent}
my
question
is
one
that
he
would
put
to
the
minister
if
he
were
here
.
{sent}
why
has
the
price
of
diesel
fuel
not
gone
down
like
gasoline
?
{sent}
as
a
trucker
he
must
pay
this
increased
cost
and
he
wants
to
know
why
the
price
has
not
gone
down
?
{sent}
however
,
the
marketing
circumstances
are
different
from
gasoline
,
generally
,
and
it
responds
to
the
market
depending
on
competitive
pressure
.
{sent}
mr.
waddell
:
one
supplementary
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
for
algoma
.
{sent}
agriculture
{sent}
price
of
farm
fuel
in
manitoba
{sent}
mr.
maurice
foster
(
algoma
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
responsible
for
the
canadian
wheat
board
.
{sent}
last
thursday
600
farmers
rallied
at
carman
,
manitoba
,
to
protest
grain
prices
and
the
high
input
costs
.
{sent}
petro-canada
and
other
oil
companies
have
eliminated
their
volume
discount
.
{sent}
world
prices
for
crude
oil
have
dropped
by
60
per
cent
since
last
fall
.
{sent}
why
is
the
government
not
taking
action
to
reduce
farm
fuel
input
costs
,
especially
in
view
of
the
fact
that
the
minister
has
reduced
the
grain
prices
?
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
the
premise
of
your
question
is
wrong
.
{sent}
hon.
charles
mayer
(
minister
of
state
(
canadian
wheat
board
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
farm
in
that
area
.
{sent}
what
the
hon.
member
says
is
true
,
we
have
lost
some
of
the
discounts
.
{sent}
i
understand
that
some
of
those
discounts
are
being
looked
at
again
.
{sent}
mr.
foster
:
supplementary
question
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
it
is
three
o'clock
.
{sent}
motions
{sent}
business
of
the
house
{sent}
acceptability
of
petitions
pursuant
to
former
s.o.
73
{sent}
the
first
is
as
follows
:
{sent}
that
the
said
petitions
be
examined
pursuant
to
practices
and
procedures
and
pursuant
to
the
provisions
of
standing
order
73
in
effect
on
september
9
,
1985
;
{sent}
that
the
petitions
found
in
order
by
the
clerk
of
petitions
be
recorded
in
the
votes
and
proceedings
and
those
petitions
found
out
of
order
be
returned
to
the
member
filing
the
petitions
;
{sent}
that
petitions
be
received
pursuant
to
this
order
no
later
than
the
last
sitting
day
of
june
,
1986
;
and
{sent}
that
the
government
not
be
required
to
table
a
response
to
any
petition
filed
pursuant
to
this
order
.
{sent}
private
members'
business
--
change
to
conform
with
provisional
standing
orders
{sent}
hon.
ray
hnatyshyn
(
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
the
second
order
reads
as
follows
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
does
the
president
of
the
privy
council
(
mr.
hnatyshyn
)
have
the
unanimous
consent
of
the
house
to
introduce
his
motions
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
house
has
heard
the
terms
of
the
motions
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
motions
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
motions
agreed
to
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
in
effect
,
this
bill
represents
yet
another
broken
promise
of
the
prime
minister
of
canada
(
mr.
mulroney
)
.
{sent}
canadians
will
recall
that
throughout
the
1984
election
campaign
the
prime
minister
set
out
an
ambitious
program
to
implement
full
employment
equity
for
all
canadians
.
{sent}
i
remind
those
canadians
who
are
watching
the
debate
,
and
those
who
have
been
following
it
,
of
the
words
of
the
prime
minister
who
said
in
august
of
1984
:
{sent}
our
party
will
ensure
that
companies
providing
services
to
the
federal
government
hire
increasing
numbers
of
women
to
perform
such
services
.
{sent}
when
seeking
government
business
,
these
companies
will
be
required
to
detail
their
action
plans
,
timetables
,
and
programs
for
attracting
,
training
and
advancing
women
within
their
operations
--
{sent}
the
prime
minister
went
on
to
say
this
:
{sent}
numerical
goals
are
one
of
several
goals
required
:
training
and
retraining
are
others
.
{sent}
canadians
remember
the
promises
made
by
the
prime
minister
during
the
federal
election
campaign
.
{sent}
today
,
as
we
examine
this
legislation
on
employment
equity
,
it
is
clear
that
those
promises
have
been
broken
.
{sent}
in
particular
i
speak
of
the
disabled
,
of
women
,
native
people
and
visible
minorities
,
all
of
whom
had
high
hopes
that
the
tory
government
would
back
up
the
rhetoric
of
the
prime
minister
with
concrete
action
.
{sent}
that
was
not
to
be
.
{sent}
why
is
it
that
legislation
such
as
effective
employment
equity
legislation
is
so
important
?
{sent}
there
is
an
imbalance
in
both
statistical
and
monetary
terms
.
{sent}
women
have
lower
than
average
incomes
.
{sent}
they
are
employed
predominantly
in
sectors
and
in
jobs
which
are
the
lowest
paid
.
{sent}
women
do
not
earn
the
same
amount
as
their
male
counterparts
for
performing
the
same
or
similar
jobs
.
{sent}
disabled
people
suffer
from
extraordinarily
high
unemployment
rates
.
{sent}
when
they
are
employed
they
tend
to
be
concentrated
in
the
low-paying
,
marginal
sectors
of
the
labour
market
.
{sent}
they
have
additional
expenses
which
those
workers
who
are
not
disabled
do
not
face
,
such
as
medication
,
special
aids
and
devices
,
and
special
transportation
services
.
{sent}
native
people
have
incredibly
high
levels
of
unemployment
,
something
in
the
order
of
five
times
higher
than
the
non-native
population
.
{sent}
recent
immigrants
to
canada
face
particular
difficulties
in
advancing
in
the
workforce
.
{sent}
they
are
frequently
found
in
job
ghettos
or
in
the
lowest
paid
,
lowest
skilled
and
most
vulnerable
sectors
of
the
employment
market
.
{sent}
so
there
is
a
problem
which
should
have
been
addressed
by
the
government
in
its
employment
euqity
legislation
.
{sent}
i
spent
some
three
months
touring
the
country
with
the
subcommittee
on
equality
rights
.
{sent}
we
travelled
from
coast
to
coast
to
hold
public
hearings
.
{sent}
we
heard
representations
from
canadians
representing
women
's
organizations
,
native
people
,
the
disabled
and
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
they
expressed
their
very
serious
concerns
about
the
provisions
of
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
i
wish
to
take
this
opportunity
to
remind
the
house
and
,
through
the
house
,
canadians
,
of
some
of
the
concerns
which
have
been
raised
regarding
the
legislation
we
are
debating
today
.
{sent}
one
of
the
key
spokespersons
for
the
disabled
,
beryl
potter
,
of
the
coalition
on
employment
equity
for
persons
with
disabilities
,
said
this
:
{sent}
like
the
bill
--
it
's
not
even
worth
the
paper
it
's
written
on
--
i
've
never
been
so
disillusioned
in
my
life
as
i
am
with
prime
minister
mulroney
.
{sent}
i
was
a
supporter
of
him
.
{sent}
i
worked
for
him
in
his
campaign
and
i
am
totally
,
totally
disillusioned
.
{sent}
that
from
a
former
active
conservative
and
one
of
the
heads
of
the
coalition
on
employment
equity
for
persons
with
disabilities
.
{sent}
the
spokesperson
for
the
inuit
tapirisat
of
canada
said
:
``
bill
c-62
is
of
limited
value
''
.
{sent}
the
spokesperson
of
the
national
association
of
women
and
the
law
,
suzanne
boivin
,
said
:
{sent}
nothing
will
change
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
it
is
simply
wishful
thinking
.
{sent}
the
groups
which
are
affected
by
this
legislation
are
unanimous
in
their
condemnation
of
it
.
{sent}
at
the
end
of
the
day
it
is
clear
that
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
(
ms.
macdonald
)
and
her
government
have
not
effectively
consulted
with
the
groups
affected
by
this
legislation
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
they
have
ignored
the
major
concerns
raised
by
these
groups
and
by
their
spokespeople
.
{sent}
first
,
i
wish
to
recognize
the
excellent
work
done
by
judge
rosalie
abella
in
this
area
.
{sent}
we
in
the
new
democratic
party
have
drawn
upon
her
report
in
outlining
what
we
believe
to
be
the
correct
approach
,
the
philosophical
underpinnings
of
strong
employment
equity
legislation
.
{sent}
when
we
examine
bill
c-62
we
see
that
the
purpose
of
the
bill
as
spelled
out
is
certainly
commendable
.
{sent}
the
purpose
of
the
bill
,
as
stated
,
is
as
follows
:
{sent}
that
is
the
guiding
principle
of
this
legislation
.
{sent}
however
,
when
we
go
on
to
read
the
bill
itself
,
we
find
that
it
falls
far
short
of
that
.
{sent}
once
again
,
i
would
note
that
consultation
with
the
groups
affected
by
this
legislation
was
sorely
lacking
.
{sent}
beryl
potter
,
a
former
active
supporter
of
the
conservative
party
who
now
says
that
she
has
been
betrayed
by
the
prime
minister
of
this
country
has
said
the
following
:
{sent}
we
have
tried
everything
.
{sent}
we
have
consulted
with
the
ceic
staff
,
appeared
as
witnesses
before
the
parliamentary
committee
on
the
bill
,
made
pleas
to
the
prime
minister
directly
and
rallied
on
parliament
hill
.
{sent}
we
have
demanded
that
the
bill
be
amended
to
include
the
government
's
own
departments
and
agencies
and
to
include
a
penalty
for
failing
to
comply
with
employment
equity
plans
.
{sent}
the
government
has
not
responded
to
any
of
our
demands
.
{sent}
in
many
cases
,
these
people
were
lifted
into
the
gallery
.
{sent}
they
were
bitterly
disappointed
with
the
response
of
the
government
.
{sent}
we
have
five
underlying
concerns
with
respect
to
the
weaknesses
in
this
legislation
and
i
would
like
to
deal
with
each
of
them
in
turn
.
{sent}
the
first
and
perhaps
most
fundamental
concern
is
with
respect
to
the
lack
of
any
effective
enforcement
mechanism
or
penalties
large
enough
to
act
as
a
deterrent
to
the
corporate
sector
.
{sent}
shari
stein
,
the
legal
counsel
for
the
coalition
on
employment
equity
for
persons
with
disabilities
,
has
said
the
following
about
bill
c-62
:
{sent}
in
effect
,
there
is
no
mechanism
whatsoever
to
guard
against
plans
which
may
be
poorly
devised
and
wholly
inadequate
to
meet
the
needs
of
target
groups
.
{sent}
we
have
examined
the
response
of
the
government
to
the
unanimous
recommendations
of
the
equality
committee
.
{sent}
i
see
that
the
hon.
member
for
surrey
--
white
rock
--
north
delta
(
mr.
friesen
)
is
present
in
the
house
.
{sent}
i
know
how
strongly
he
supported
the
recommendations
of
the
committee
on
equality
and
i
know
that
he
will
want
to
have
a
chance
to
speak
on
that
at
the
appropriate
time
.
{sent}
the
committee
recommended
far
more
effective
legislation
.
{sent}
it
recommended
that
the
government
give
teeth
to
bill
c-62
and
ensure
that
there
are
adequate
employment
equity
enforcement
mechanisms
.
{sent}
those
mechanisms
are
not
there
and
i
deeply
regret
that
.
{sent}
certainly
the
groups
affected
by
this
bill
regret
that
very
much
.
{sent}
the
bill
makes
no
reference
whatsoever
to
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
as
well
,
there
are
no
provisions
for
mandatory
contract
compliance
for
firms
which
may
be
doing
business
with
the
government
.
{sent}
clearly
the
experience
in
the
united
states
has
shown
that
contract
compliance
can
be
a
very
effective
tool
in
changing
discriminatory
practices
which
may
be
followed
by
firms
selling
goods
and
services
to
the
government
.
{sent}
this
was
a
major
recommendation
of
the
equality
for
all
report
and
the
government
has
chosen
to
ignore
it
.
{sent}
the
abella
commission
's
recommendation
no.
27
states
that
contract
compliance
should
be
imposed
by
legislation
.
{sent}
the
government
has
ignored
that
important
recommendation
.
{sent}
in
bill
c-62
,
we
see
that
contract
compliance
only
applies
to
firms
with
100
or
more
employees
and
only
if
the
value
of
the
contracts
exceed
$
200,000
.
{sent}
moreover
,
failure
to
comply
with
the
equity
proposals
of
the
government
does
not
result
in
loss
of
a
contract
but
only
means
that
in
the
future
,
such
a
firm
may
be
removed
from
competition
.
{sent}
that
is
not
much
of
an
incentive
to
comply
with
employment
equity
.
{sent}
the
provisions
with
respect
to
employment
equity
and
in
particular
contract
compliance
are
set
out
in
the
report
entitled
equality
for
all
.
{sent}
the
unanimous
recommendation
of
the
committee
composed
of
five
conservative
members
,
one
liberal
member
and
myself
was
that
contract
compliance
be
a
part
of
the
employment
equity
legislation
.
{sent}
we
noted
that
in
the
united
states
,
a
similar
executive
order
enforced
by
the
office
of
federal
contract
compliance
programs
applies
to
contracts
worth
$
50,000
or
more
granted
to
firms
with
50
or
more
employees
.
{sent}
the
unanimous
recommendation
of
our
committee
was
that
the
ceiling
of
$
200,000
and
100
employees
is
too
high
.
{sent}
there
were
recommendations
in
other
areas
about
which
the
hon.
member
for
surrey
--
white
rock
--
north
delta
felt
particularly
strongly
.
{sent}
i
know
that
he
fought
hard
in
those
areas
.
{sent}
however
,
the
reality
is
that
that
particular
voice
was
not
heard
,
and
in
some
instances
,
perhaps
we
might
breathe
a
sigh
of
relief
that
that
was
the
case
.
{sent}
however
,
i
know
that
the
hon.
member
himself
may
wish
to
comment
with
respect
to
his
views
on
this
important
report
.
{sent}
much
of
the
wording
of
bill
c-62
,
particularly
that
of
clause
4
which
deals
with
the
duty
of
employers
,
is
very
loose
and
ill
defined
.
{sent}
what
,
for
example
,
is
the
effect
of
not
defining
reasonable
accommodation
or
positive
policies
and
practices
?
{sent}
this
crucial
question
should
surely
be
the
subject
of
negotiation
between
employers
and
employees
.
{sent}
instead
,
there
has
been
some
vague
process
of
consultation
and
even
that
was
only
included
as
an
amendment
later
in
the
day
.
{sent}
once
again
,
this
was
a
recommendation
made
very
clearly
by
the
special
committee
on
equality
rights
.
{sent}
we
said
that
the
legislation
on
employment
equity
should
apply
to
all
federal
public-sector
employers
and
to
employers
under
federal
jurisdiction
.
{sent}
despite
that
unanimous
recommendation
,
the
government
once
again
told
us
to
forget
it
,
that
it
is
not
prepared
to
implement
that
important
recommendation
.
{sent}
i
think
we
can
understand
why
the
government
did
that
if
we
read
an
extract
from
the
government
's
response
.
{sent}
the
government
has
said
that
it
attempts
to
balance
the
needs
of
the
designated
groups
against
the
government
's
desire
not
to
interfere
unduly
in
the
operations
of
employers
.
{sent}
it
is
a
pretty
skewed
balance
and
one
which
has
left
the
groups
which
should
be
assisted
by
employment
equity
legislation
,
women
,
native
people
,
the
disabled
and
visible
minorities
,
very
critical
indeed
of
the
legislation
.
{sent}
the
government
argued
that
federal
departments
and
agencies
are
covered
by
the
1983
public
service
policy
on
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
i
would
remind
the
government
that
that
policy
does
not
apply
to
members
of
the
rcmp
or
the
armed
forces
.
{sent}
we
know
that
those
employers
are
some
of
the
most
reactionary
and
sexist
employers
in
the
country
.
{sent}
we
hoped
that
they
would
have
been
included
under
this
legislation
,
weak
though
it
may
be
.
{sent}
rather
than
that
,
we
see
a
legacy
of
broken
promises
in
so
many
other
areas
as
well
as
in
this
fundamental
area
of
social
justice
.
{sent}
these
groups
had
hoped
that
corrective
action
would
be
taken
to
deal
with
past
abuses
and
ongoing
barriers
to
workplace
equity
.
{sent}
they
also
recognized
that
the
previous
government
took
no
action
whatsoever
,
and
certainly
they
were
critical
of
the
former
government
for
its
failure
to
act
.
{sent}
it
is
interesting
to
see
the
spokesperson
for
that
party
now
standing
up
in
opposition
and
railing
at
the
government
in
respect
of
action
which
should
have
been
taken
many
years
ago
.
{sent}
certainly
many
of
us
who
were
here
when
liberal
governments
were
in
power
were
critical
of
their
inaction
.
{sent}
we
hoped
that
the
tories
would
keep
their
promises
.
{sent}
instead
of
providing
mechanisms
in
the
bill
to
ensure
compliance
through
effective
enforcement
,
bill
c-62
relies
on
voluntarism
and
invitations
.
{sent}
surely
the
past
has
shown
us
clearly
that
it
is
not
good
enough
to
leave
it
to
employers
to
establish
and
pursue
their
own
goals
and
targets
.
{sent}
the
minister
somehow
believes
that
if
the
failure
of
employers
to
live
up
to
these
goals
and
timetables
is
published
,
employers
will
be
shamed
into
action
.
{sent}
the
record
of
employers
across
the
land
is
well
known
and
has
been
clearly
documented
.
{sent}
certainly
they
have
not
been
shamed
into
taking
steps
which
would
involve
the
full
participation
of
all
canadians
in
the
workforce
.
{sent}
we
need
enforcement
mechanisms
with
teeth
.
{sent}
we
need
provisions
for
contract
compliance
,
negotiation
between
management
and
workers
,
and
a
clearly
stated
commitment
to
the
overriding
principle
of
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
those
essential
principles
are
lacking
in
this
important
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
while
clause
4
obliges
employers
to
implement
employment
equity
,
the
hon.
member
knows
that
there
is
no
penalty
in
the
bill
if
they
do
not
comply
with
it
.
{sent}
also
,
clause
5
obliges
employers
to
prepare
an
action
plan
with
goals
and
timetables
,
but
there
is
no
penalty
for
non-compliance
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
burnaby
(
mr.
robinson
)
is
a
learned
attorney
,
and
i
should
like
his
views
on
the
argument
given
by
the
government
.
{sent}
i
am
a
lawyer
as
well
.
{sent}
i
have
read
that
act
from
beginning
to
end
and
from
end
to
beginning
.
{sent}
in
any
case
,
i
cannot
follow
the
argumentation
of
the
government
.
{sent}
if
it
were
really
in
favour
of
enforcement
,
why
would
it
not
accept
that
simple
amendment
to
clause
7
?
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
thank
my
distinguished
colleague
and
learned
legal
associate
for
his
important
question
.
{sent}
i
am
not
at
all
surprised
that
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
has
failed
to
comprehend
the
government
's
reasoning
.
{sent}
indeed
,
all
reasonable
canadians
and
all
groups
affected
by
the
legislation
do
not
understand
the
government
's
reasoning
.
{sent}
the
bill
is
very
specific
.
{sent}
only
clause
7
is
specifically
an
offence
section
.
{sent}
it
reads
:
{sent}
an
employer
who
fails
to
comply
with
section
6
is
guilty
of
an
offence
and
liable
on
summary
conviction
to
a
fine
not
exceeding
$
50,000
.
{sent}
clause
7
only
deals
with
the
failure
to
comply
with
section
6
.
{sent}
this
is
what
we
would
like
you
to
do
,
but
if
you
are
not
prepared
to
do
it
,
we
are
not
prepared
to
enforce
it
''
.
{sent}
it
is
certainly
a
betrayal
of
the
hopes
and
expectations
of
the
groups
affected
.
{sent}
we
could
obtain
a
learned
legal
opinion
from
the
chief
law
officer
of
the
crown
who
is
present
in
the
chamber
today
,
the
minister
of
justice
and
attorney
general
of
canada
.
{sent}
he
might
want
to
point
to
a
section
in
the
canadian
human
rights
act
which
would
give
the
commission
the
power
in
fact
to
enforce
these
clauses
or
to
put
teeth
into
them
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
should
like
to
deal
with
the
position
taken
by
the
hon.
member
with
regard
to
the
enforcement
policies
and
provisions
in
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
as
reported
at
page
12454
of
hansard
for
yesterday
,
the
minister
made
the
following
statement
:
{sent}
the
government
is
committed
to
ensuring
that
employment
equity
becomes
a
reality
.
{sent}
we
intend
to
knock
on
the
doors
of
employers
who
do
not
meet
their
responsibilities
.
{sent}
i
can
tell
you
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
we
will
be
knocking
with
a
firm
fist
.
{sent}
that
confirms
exactly
what
we
have
been
saying
.
{sent}
the
government
only
has
somewhat
of
a
fist
,
but
no
doors
on
which
to
knock
,
because
there
is
no
obligation
on
any
employer
to
report
progress
.
{sent}
would
the
hon.
member
for
burnaby
(
mr.
robinson
)
tell
us
how
he
thinks
the
minister
will
be
able
to
knock
on
the
doors
of
employers
with
a
firm
fist
?
{sent}
what
kind
of
a
result
does
he
think
the
minister
will
get
?
{sent}
how
does
he
foresee
the
reaction
of
an
average
employer
with
100
or
more
employees
?
{sent}
of
course
employers
will
be
required
to
fulfil
a
couple
of
obligations
.
{sent}
they
will
have
to
plan
for
removal
of
systemic
discrimination
and
to
present
a
plan
of
action
.
{sent}
however
,
i
do
not
see
anything
about
progress
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
can
the
hon.
member
find
anything
in
the
bill
about
progress
being
reported
to
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
?
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
quite
correctly
pointed
out
one
of
the
very
serious
weaknesses
in
the
legislation
.
{sent}
there
is
no
real
clout
in
the
hands
of
the
minister
to
enforce
the
legislation
.
{sent}
all
she
can
do
is
get
down
on
bended
knee
and
beg
,
plead
,
cajole
,
request
,
and
urge
.
{sent}
all
she
can
do
is
knock
on
the
door
and
say
:
``
please
,
mr.
employer
,
hire
more
disabled
persons
and
more
women
''
.
{sent}
that
approach
has
been
tried
in
the
past
for
decades
,
and
it
has
not
worked
.
{sent}
when
we
in
the
new
democratic
party
looked
at
the
legislation
,
we
worked
hard
to
strengthen
the
bill
.
{sent}
hon.
members
of
the
official
opposition
also
proposed
amendments
which
would
put
some
teeth
into
it
.
{sent}
in
the
law
itself
there
are
no
sanctions
or
teeth
whatsoever
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
quote
further
from
the
minister
's
speech
of
yesterday
.
{sent}
it
is
quite
interesting
how
a
minister
of
the
crown
could
make
such
statements
.
{sent}
i
will
come
back
later
on
in
my
speech
about
this
because
i
noticed
some
interesting
comments
of
hers
yesterday
.
{sent}
at
page
12453
of
hansard
,
the
minister
said
:
{sent}
at
the
end
of
that
year
they
will
be
required
to
report
on
the
progress
that
they
have
made
toward
achieving
these
goals
.
{sent}
these
reports
will
be
made
public
,
open
to
media
and
public
scrutiny
--
and
this
is
the
second
half
of
the
two-tiered
system
--
{sent}
this
is
exactly
what
judge
abella
rejected
,
voluntary
reporting
on
progress
.
{sent}
it
has
not
happened
yet
and
it
will
not
start
happening
after
bill
c-62
is
passed
.
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
pleased
that
the
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
(
mr.
epp
)
has
joined
me
today
in
this
important
debate
.
{sent}
i
would
be
quite
prepared
to
seek
unanimous
consent
to
ask
the
minister
to
answer
that
very
important
question
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
robinson
:
in
the
short
time
available
,
i
would
note
that
the
hon.
member
is
raising
a
very
important
question
.
{sent}
under
this
legislation
and
,
in
particular
,
clause
5
of
the
legislation
it
states
that
while
an
employer
has
to
prepare
a
plan
which
sets
out
various
goals
and
timetables
,
this
plan
remains
a
secret
document
.
{sent}
the
employer
has
to
keep
it
locked
in
his
or
her
principal
place
of
business
for
a
period
of
at
least
three
years
,
but
the
employer
does
not
even
have
to
give
it
to
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
.
{sent}
that
amendment
was
rejected
.
{sent}
for
that
,
as
well
as
the
many
other
reasons
that
we
have
been
enunciating
during
the
course
of
this
debate
,
we
are
opposed
to
the
third
reading
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
and
comments
are
now
terminated
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
eglinton-lawrence
(
mr.
de
corneille
)
.
{sent}
we
have
to
ask
ourselves
,
does
this
bill
in
third
reading
,
after
we
have
tried
to
work
on
amendments
and
ways
to
improve
it
,
fulfil
its
declared
purposes
?
{sent}
it
says
:
``
in
the
workplace
''
.
{sent}
first
,
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
only
in
some
workplaces
,
it
is
not
in
``
the
workplace
''
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
we
have
to
say
that
``
the
workplace
''
only
applies
to
those
workplaces
where
there
are
more
than
100
people
employed
,
otherwise
this
bill
does
not
apply
.
{sent}
next
,
it
does
not
apply
to
the
entire
private
sector
,
only
to
a
number
of
companies
doing
federal
work
.
{sent}
when
we
look
at
what
it
does
apply
to
,
we
find
that
the
bill
applies
to
some
federal
crown
corporations
and
about
800
federally
regulated
firms
with
more
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
it
applies
to
only
a
very
few
workplaces
in
canada
.
{sent}
therefore
,
from
the
beginning
,
the
bill
is
a
sham
in
terms
of
its
alleged
purposes
.
{sent}
the
bill
says
that
no
person
shall
be
denied
employment
.
{sent}
clause
2
states
:
{sent}
these
are
the
people
in
the
groups
to
which
the
bill
is
supposed
to
apply
and
whom
it
is
supposed
to
help
.
{sent}
it
says
it
is
``
to
achieve
equality
''
.
{sent}
this
bill
does
not
change
a
single
solitary
thing
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
it
does
not
change
anything
.
{sent}
it
is
supposed
to
attack
systemic
discrimination
against
certain
groups
.
{sent}
by
systemic
discrimination
we
mean
the
way
the
system
works
,
the
network
,
the
basic
underlying
system
as
we
know
it
,
the
ingrained
system
.
{sent}
women
know
what
this
ingrained
system
is
because
they
know
that
they
have
not
achieved
in
any
sense
the
positions
of
leadership
and
of
power
in
any
way
equally
to
men
.
{sent}
the
handicapped
certainly
know
what
the
system
is
.
{sent}
they
know
in
very
many
ways
that
they
are
regarded
as
useless
instead
of
being
regarded
as
excellent
resources
.
{sent}
various
minority
groups
,
especially
our
native
peoples
,
understand
how
the
system
works
,
but
it
does
not
work
for
them
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
suppose
to
change
systemic
discrimination
.
{sent}
it
is
supposed
to
affect
the
system
.
{sent}
it
is
a
sham
.
{sent}
the
bill
is
an
absolute
sham
.
{sent}
who
says
it
is
a
sham
,
mr.
speaker
?
{sent}
there
is
not
one
single
person
who
works
in
the
field
of
human
rights
who
does
not
regard
the
bill
as
a
sham
.
{sent}
that
is
not
the
complete
list
.
{sent}
that
is
only
a
list
of
some
of
the
umbrella
groups
.
{sent}
there
have
been
certain
comments
that
i
think
are
worth
putting
on
the
record
.
{sent}
for
example
,
carol
tator
,
president
of
the
urban
alliance
on
race
relations
,
says
:
{sent}
what
the
government
has
done
has
given
us
an
empty
,
symbolic
gesture
toward
the
whole
problem
of
achieving
employment
equity
.
{sent}
shari
stein
,
a
lawyer
for
the
advocacy
resource
centre
for
the
handicapped
,
adds
that
bill
c-62
is
so
weak
it
is
potentially
harmful
.
{sent}
that
is
why
the
opposition
is
so
determined
.
{sent}
if
this
legislation
moved
a
small
step
in
the
right
direction
,
one
would
not
feel
that
one
had
to
fight
this
to
get
it
changed
drastically
.
{sent}
however
,
when
groups
like
this
call
this
bill
harmful
,
one
must
listen
,
take
notice
,
and
realize
that
a
lot
is
at
stake
.
{sent}
the
purpose
of
this
bill
is
allegedly
to
ensure
that
no
person
is
denied
employment
opportunities
or
benefits
.
{sent}
those
are
high
sounding
ideals
,
but
what
does
this
bill
do
for
our
minority
groups
?
{sent}
my
colleagues
,
who
have
analysed
this
bill
as
i
have
,
have
pointed
out
that
,
in
effect
,
this
bill
only
asks
employers
to
file
a
report
.
{sent}
the
terminology
of
the
report
is
not
laid
out
.
{sent}
we
moved
amendments
to
clarify
some
of
the
terms
,
but
they
were
not
supported
by
the
government
.
{sent}
only
employers
who
have
more
than
100
employees
and
fall
into
limited
categories
are
affected
by
this
bill
.
{sent}
they
have
to
file
some
reports
.
{sent}
we
asked
how
the
government
would
ensure
that
employers
would
have
a
plan
for
the
future
to
change
their
employment
practices
.
{sent}
after
fighting
against
it
as
hard
as
possible
,
the
government
finally
saw
fit
to
require
employers
to
prepare
a
plan
setting
out
their
goals
and
timetables
.
{sent}
the
government
said
employers
should
fill
their
drawers
with
their
plans
and
keep
them
for
at
least
three
years
.
{sent}
they
are
not
to
send
these
plans
to
the
government
or
the
canadian
human
rights
commission
,
but
only
to
fill
their
drawers
with
them
.
{sent}
it
is
ludicrous
that
the
government
,
in
all
sincerity
,
could
present
such
a
bill
as
this
which
is
mocked
by
the
people
whom
it
is
supposed
to
serve
.
{sent}
the
government
persists
in
refusing
all
of
the
recommendations
which
have
been
made
to
it
by
the
minority
groups
and
in
ignoring
the
very
reports
which
were
presumably
the
cause
for
bringing
forth
this
legislation
.
{sent}
the
women
of
canada
comprise
51
per
cent
of
our
population
.
{sent}
as
a
group
,
they
earn
lower
salaries
than
men
and
perform
a
higher
proportion
of
part-time
work
.
{sent}
very
often
they
are
the
last
hired
and
the
first
fired
.
{sent}
due
to
their
frequent
part-time
employment
,
they
are
in
a
situation
of
great
vulnerability
.
{sent}
over
the
decades
the
system
has
not
corrected
itself
.
{sent}
we
cannot
accept
the
views
of
the
member
for
capilano
(
mrs.
collins
)
that
,
because
she
is
an
eternal
optimist
and
has
faith
in
the
canadian
people
,
things
will
work
out
.
{sent}
it
is
not
a
question
of
the
canadian
people
,
in
whom
we
all
have
faith
.
{sent}
it
is
a
question
of
the
employers
who
have
to
make
a
profit
.
{sent}
some
of
these
employers
are
good
citizens
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
not
the
good
citizens
toward
whom
we
direct
legislation
,
but
the
bad
ones
.
{sent}
there
is
no
guarantee
in
this
bill
that
the
bad
citizens
,
or
let
us
say
the
more
self-centred
citizens
,
in
the
corporate
field
are
going
to
understand
that
we
mean
business
.
{sent}
the
parliament
of
canada
is
not
a
place
to
play
games
,
and
we
resent
that
the
government
is
playing
games
with
an
issue
as
serious
as
equality
for
such
a
large
proportion
of
our
population
.
{sent}
surely
no
injustice
can
be
tolerated
simply
on
the
grounds
that
its
correction
will
cost
money
.
{sent}
let
us
keep
the
environment
clean
and
let
us
keep
the
workplace
clean
and
free
of
inequality
and
discrimination
.
{sent}
today
women
are
supporting
themselves
and
their
dependants
.
{sent}
they
are
working
for
a
living
and
for
survival
.
{sent}
they
have
the
right
to
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
they
have
the
right
to
take
their
rightful
role
as
equal
human
beings
.
{sent}
that
is
what
canadians
want
from
the
government
.
{sent}
we
sometimes
hear
from
the
less
progressive
elements
of
the
business
community
that
women
must
be
moved
from
low-paying
jobs
into
higher
paying
jobs
through
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
that
is
a
laudable
thought
,
but
who
will
then
fill
the
low-paying
jobs
which
are
left
vacant
?
{sent}
the
problem
is
that
those
jobs
are
undervalued
.
{sent}
if
they
continue
to
be
undervalued
because
women
fill
them
,
we
will
not
have
solved
the
problem
.
{sent}
the
lot
of
women
has
not
been
corrected
by
time
and
the
so-called
goodwill
which
exists
.
{sent}
despite
educational
campaigns
and
efforts
by
women
's
groups
,
the
situation
still
has
not
changed
.
{sent}
the
claim
that
when
the
public
sees
what
corporations
and
companies
are
doing
they
will
make
them
change
their
ways
is
a
vain
and
silly
proposal
of
the
tories
.
{sent}
it
is
not
enough
to
simply
rely
on
so-called
public
opinion
and
pressure
.
{sent}
there
must
be
legal
requirements
backed
up
by
penalties
for
violation
.
{sent}
there
must
be
penalties
for
lack
of
compliance
.
{sent}
there
must
be
an
enforcement
mechanism
.
{sent}
we
all
know
this
is
the
case
,
yet
the
government
persists
in
ignoring
these
obvious
requirements
to
make
this
bill
meaningful
.
{sent}
women
's
groups
condemn
this
legislation
as
a
sham
.
{sent}
they
constitute
51
per
cent
of
the
population
.
{sent}
they
were
promised
action
but
received
a
bill
with
no
compliance
or
penalties
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
deal
with
each
of
the
minority
groups
,
but
time
does
not
permit
it
.
{sent}
time
does
not
permit
me
to
explore
the
loss
of
dignity
which
results
from
inequality
.
{sent}
these
people
want
the
right
to
work
.
{sent}
they
do
not
want
to
be
on
the
dole
.
{sent}
the
reason
a
law
with
enforcement
provisions
is
required
is
that
very
often
,
as
martin
luther
king
said
,
the
law
is
a
teacher
.
{sent}
it
helps
to
make
all
of
us
understand
our
role
.
{sent}
i
remember
many
,
many
years
ago
,
about
the
time
i
was
ordained
,
that
a
black
priest
came
to
toronto
from
new
york
city
.
{sent}
i
tried
to
find
him
quarters
in
a
motel
or
hotel
near
toronto
.
{sent}
i
was
told
by
the
proprietors
that
they
had
nothing
against
him
because
they
liked
black
people
,
but
the
trouble
was
that
the
people
who
came
up
from
the
states
did
not
like
black
people
.
{sent}
if
there
were
a
law
,
of
course
,
they
could
point
to
it
and
say
,
``
we
have
to
do
this
''
.
{sent}
however
,
since
there
was
no
law
,
they
could
not
comply
and
they
felt
it
was
best
for
their
business
that
they
did
not
provide
this
man
with
accommodations
.
{sent}
i
am
not
talking
about
the
united
states
deep
south
;
i
am
talking
about
an
area
in
ontario
in
the
1950s
.
{sent}
why
am
i
telling
this
story
?
{sent}
to
point
out
that
if
people
have
something
to
point
to
and
say
,
``
i
have
to
do
this
''
,
it
helps
them
to
justify
what
they
know
they
should
do
.
{sent}
this
is
what
the
law
requires
and
this
is
what
they
will
do
.
{sent}
we
are
talking
about
something
which
deals
with
making
us
all
equal
as
brothers
and
sisters
together
.
{sent}
i
think
archibald
macleish
summed
that
up
when
he
was
writing
a
poem
about
the
astronauts
when
they
were
looking
down
from
the
moon
upon
the
earth
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
questions
and
comments
.
{sent}
mr.
nickerson
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
listened
very
carefully
to
a
good
presentation
by
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
he
presents
himself
as
an
advocate
for
the
end
of
discrimination
against
women
.
{sent}
however
,
am
i
not
correct
in
thinking
that
he
is
a
member
and
supporter
of
a
church
which
refuses
to
ordain
women
as
bishops
?
{sent}
would
he
tell
us
why
that
is
the
case
?
{sent}
would
he
take
this
opportunity
to
stand
in
his
place
and
tell
us
,
if
he
is
a
man
of
conviction
,
that
he
thinks
the
church
of
which
he
is
a
member
is
wrong
?
{sent}
mr.
friesen
:
repent
!
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
not
sure
whether
the
hon.
member
for
western
arctic
(
mr.
nickerson
)
is
advocating
support
for
the
churches
in
such
a
stand
or
whether
he
is
criticizing
it
.
{sent}
perhaps
he
wants
to
know
what
my
particular
stand
is
.
{sent}
i
could
point
out
to
him
that
the
position
which
has
historically
existed
in
the
anglican
church
,
to
which
i
belong
,
has
forbidden
the
idea
of
the
ordination
of
women
as
priests
or
as
bishops
.
{sent}
that
position
has
been
modified
,
at
least
in
the
church
in
canada
,
so
that
we
ordain
women
as
priests
.
{sent}
i
have
certainly
supported
that
move
.
{sent}
i
think
that
argument
is
specious
and
reactionary
.
{sent}
therefore
,
i
have
to
say
to
my
hon.
friend
that
i
believe
that
the
anglican
church
to
which
i
belong
should
hastily
reform
its
position
and
join
the
20th
century
.
{sent}
i
invite
conservative
members
of
parliament
to
join
the
20th
century
as
well
and
see
to
it
that
women
are
given
equality
in
all
areas
.
{sent}
there
is
no
room
for
inequality
in
this
day
and
age
and
certainly
not
in
this
country
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
for
eglinton
--
lawrence
(
mr.
de
corneille
)
is
a
member
of
a
party
which
formed
the
government
of
this
country
for
a
good
number
of
years
.
{sent}
it
lead
us
to
the
present
circumstances
in
which
,
for
example
,
there
are
very
few
women
in
senior
management
positions
in
the
federal
public
service
.
{sent}
his
government
tolerated
this
situation
while
it
was
in
office
.
{sent}
it
promulgated
policies
which
did
not
change
that
situation
.
{sent}
there
was
no
contract
compliance
policy
which
worked
.
{sent}
the
liberals
did
not
force
companies
to
take
action
on
employment
equity
.
{sent}
i
am
wondering
how
he
can
stand
up
in
this
house
and
criticize
the
conservatives
for
doing
just
what
his
government
did
over
a
number
of
years
.
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
first
i
would
disagree
with
my
friend
on
his
statement
that
the
liberal
government
did
not
do
anything
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
nothing
effective
.
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
i
think
he
has
to
realize
that
a
very
large
number
of
steps
were
taken
,
step
by
step
,
starting
with
the
federal
human
rights
commission
.
{sent}
then
of
course
we
brought
forward
guidelines
in
the
treasury
board
and
we
took
other
steps
in
the
public
service
.
{sent}
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
was
trying
to
bring
into
legislation
amendments
which
would
make
sure
that
government
departments
fall
under
the
requirements
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
i
certainly
agree
that
more
needs
to
be
done
.
{sent}
the
charter
was
passed
four
years
ago
and
there
was
plenty
of
time
for
this
government
to
know
what
was
coming
up
.
{sent}
it
has
finally
decided
to
turn
to
the
council
on
social
development
to
deal
with
providing
money
to
people
for
court
challenges
.
{sent}
that
organization
sent
a
list
of
these
people
to
my
friend
,
the
secretary
of
state
,
but
he
has
not
acted
on
it
.
{sent}
seven
months
have
gone
by
and
these
people
,
who
have
genuine
problems
to
take
to
court
,
are
still
waiting
for
the
government
to
act
.
{sent}
it
is
problems
such
as
that
which
make
me
so
concerned
that
this
bill
is
a
sham
.
{sent}
we
will
see
more
reports
like
this
,
with
greater
bureaucracy
,
but
no
action
.
{sent}
after
listening
to
some
remarks
yesterday
,
i
looked
at
the
record
and
found
that
in
saskatchewan
where
the
ndp
was
in
power
for
some
time
,
there
is
no
legislated
mandatory
affirmative
action
program
.
{sent}
in
manitoba
,
they
only
passed
a
pay
equity
act
in
june
,
1985
.
{sent}
that
is
the
only
measure
of
any
consequence
in
the
area
of
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
in
british
columbia
,
where
the
new
democratic
party
was
in
power
for
some
time
,
there
is
no
legislation
at
all
dealing
with
this
subject
.
{sent}
i
suggest
that
all
of
us
have
come
to
it
a
bit
late
and
i
would
expect
there
would
be
some
humility
with
respect
to
this
subject
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
that
we
did
pass
the
canadian
human
rights
act
in
1977
and
the
charter
of
rights
in
the
last
parliament
.
{sent}
there
is
no
definition
of
reasonable
accommodation
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
all
of
the
groups
representing
the
disabled
told
us
that
there
must
be
a
definition
or
the
bill
will
be
ineffective
.
{sent}
as
a
member
who
deals
with
disabled
people
very
often
,
will
he
elaborate
on
this
,
because
the
government
has
refused
to
accept
our
proposals
for
a
definition
of
reasonable
accommodation
?
{sent}
does
he
believe
that
this
bill
can
be
effective
for
disabled
people
when
it
does
not
include
a
definition
of
reasonable
accommodation
?
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
obviously
the
disabled
and
their
organizations
felt
that
this
was
a
very
essential
and
important
definition
to
put
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
otherwise
,
the
danger
is
that
a
disabled
person
could
be
defined
as
someone
who
has
a
sprained
thumb
.
{sent}
there
are
no
terms
of
reference
on
which
the
the
government
or
the
human
rights
commission
can
act
.
{sent}
the
absence
of
this
definition
makes
the
bill
even
more
faulty
than
it
is
.
{sent}
the
disabled
who
came
here
last
week
were
disappointed
that
they
could
not
find
a
place
in
the
gallery
for
their
wheelchairs
.
{sent}
this
very
place
is
limited
in
its
facilities
for
the
disabled
,
yet
we
are
supposed
to
be
setting
an
example
for
the
rest
of
the
country
.
{sent}
they
came
here
and
tried
to
cry
out
in
protest
in
front
of
the
house
.
{sent}
they
tried
,
through
the
media
,
to
ask
for
these
small
amendments
in
order
to
give
them
reassurance
that
the
bill
dealt
with
this
issue
seriously
.
{sent}
yet
they
were
refused
.
{sent}
some
of
the
disabled
who
came
here
were
blind
.
{sent}
they
may
have
been
blind
but
they
can
see
better
than
the
tories
.
{sent}
they
can
look
through
the
tories
and
see
the
cynicism
and
hypocrisy
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
regret
that
the
hon.
member
's
time
has
expired
.
{sent}
adjournment
debate
{sent}
proceedings
on
adjournment
motion
{sent}
subject
matter
of
questions
to
be
debated
{sent}
(
b
)
request
for
consultations
;
the
hon.
member
for
cochrane
--
superior
(
mr.
penner
)
--
native
economic
development
fund
--
extent
of
expenditures
.
{sent}
(
b
)
request
for
increase
in
estimates
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
i
am
taking
part
in
a
debate
on
a
motion
which
would
give
the
government
an
opportunity
to
reconsider
seriously
the
representations
that
have
been
made
in
the
house
as
well
as
in
many
other
places
about
the
flaws
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
first
,
i
want
to
respond
to
the
comment
by
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
about
how
slowly
we
have
come
to
understand
these
matters
.
{sent}
that
observation
does
have
some
fairness
to
it
.
{sent}
the
proclamation
of
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
has
demonstrated
a
growing
sensitivity
to
these
matters
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
commented
on
the
western
provinces
that
have
been
governed
by
the
new
democratic
party
.
{sent}
saskatchewan
does
not
have
a
new
democratic
government
at
this
time
and
british
columbia
,
of
course
,
has
not
had
a
new
democratic
government
for
more
than
a
dozen
years
.
{sent}
in
manitoba
,
i
am
pleased
to
say
that
the
new
democratic
government
was
recently
re-elected
and
that
government
has
been
very
concerned
about
making
progress
in
this
area
,
particularly
as
far
as
its
own
employment
is
concerned
.
{sent}
members
should
be
aware
that
in
its
negotiations
with
the
union
of
government
employees
,
the
government
of
manitoba
took
action
in
areas
which
the
federal
government
has
refused
to
include
in
this
bill
.
{sent}
i
want
to
note
one
paragraph
in
particular
.
{sent}
it
states
:
{sent}
another
strategy
that
was
adopted
in
saskatchewan
that
has
,
in
the
first
instance
,
produced
some
results
,
was
the
approach
taken
in
relation
to
the
provincial
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
under
the
former
government
--
{sent}
presumably
,
this
is
a
document
from
the
present
saskatchewan
conservative
government
which
states
:
{sent}
under
the
former
government
,
affirmative
action
encompassed
special
measures
to
eliminate
systemic
discrimination
and
to
open
up
employment
opportunities
to
the
key
target
groups
(
native
,
women
,
disabled
)
.
{sent}
the
crown
corporations
were
given
a
specific
directive
from
the
provincial
government
to
develop
affirmative
action
plans
.
{sent}
native
people
were
designated
the
priority
,
although
both
women
and
the
disabled
were
included
as
target
groups
.
{sent}
the
paragraph
concludes
:
{sent}
the
crown
corporations
were
to
demonstrate
leadership
and
to
provide
an
example
to
the
private
sector
of
effective
affirmative
action
programs
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
that
some
of
my
colleagues
from
saskatchewan
will
be
aware
of
these
matters
,
even
if
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
was
not
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
it
is
important
to
give
this
opportunity
to
the
government
so
that
it
can
take
another
look
at
the
matter
.
{sent}
after
all
,
initially
,
there
were
fine
statements
of
intention
.
{sent}
that
was
not
the
case
,
however
,
when
she
was
faced
with
the
type
of
particulars
seen
in
the
city
of
toronto
.
{sent}
these
were
made
obvious
by
a
couple
of
reports
last
winter
and
spring
which
asked
:
``
no
discrimination
here
?
''
{sent}
``
who
gets
the
jobs
?
''
{sent}
whether
this
came
about
because
of
race
and
colour
,
or
whether
it
was
a
matter
of
accents
or
the
names
people
bore
,
these
persons
had
great
difficulty
in
obtaining
employment
.
{sent}
these
demonstrations
of
discrimination
and
racist
practices
were
certainly
known
to
the
minister
.
{sent}
i
made
a
point
of
writing
to
the
minister
after
each
of
these
reports
to
say
to
her
:
``
here
is
the
evidence
.
{sent}
we
require
strong
action
.
{sent}
when
she
tabled
bill
c-62
we
were
all
concerned
to
see
what
was
in
it
.
{sent}
even
on
first
reading
of
it
we
found
it
did
not
contain
very
much
.
{sent}
we
found
that
,
primarily
,
it
was
a
basis
for
determining
what
the
composition
of
workforces
in
large
companies
would
be
.
{sent}
it
was
primarily
large
companies
with
which
it
dealt
.
{sent}
government
departments
were
not
included
.
{sent}
we
were
told
that
other
action
was
supposedly
being
taken
--
again
,
government
by
press
release
.
{sent}
but
the
government
was
not
making
itself
subject
to
this
reporting
provision
.
{sent}
only
large
employers
with
100
or
more
employees
would
be
required
to
report
on
the
composition
of
their
workforces
.
{sent}
that
is
all
the
bill
provides
.
{sent}
certainly
,
there
is
a
penalty
for
not
complying
,
but
who
will
tell
me
that
$
50,000
is
a
large
penalty
for
the
type
of
corporations
with
which
we
are
dealing
here
?
{sent}
it
is
not
much
of
a
penalty
and
not
much
will
result
in
the
way
of
action
by
employers
.
{sent}
at
least
with
the
addition
of
clause
5
we
have
the
following
statement
:
{sent}
an
employer
shall
,
in
respect
of
each
year
,
prepare
a
plan
setting
out
{sent}
(
a
)
the
goals
that
the
employer
intends
to
achieve
in
implementing
employment
equity
--
{sent}
(
b
)
the
timetable
for
the
implementation
of
those
goals
.
{sent}
however
,
there
are
weaknesses
in
this
clause
,
as
i
will
suggest
in
a
few
moments
,
following
others
which
still
do
not
go
very
far
.
{sent}
employers
were
not
just
expected
to
report
on
the
results
of
their
employment
practices
,
they
were
to
set
goals
.
{sent}
there
was
no
demand
,
no
setting
of
a
timetable
for
real
progress
to
be
made
.
{sent}
given
the
protests
of
group
after
group
,
there
has
been
a
real
formation
of
coalitions
to
press
the
government
to
give
more
.
{sent}
i
underscore
that
point
as
it
comes
from
the
various
groups
across
the
country
.
{sent}
if
the
government
does
not
do
something
now
,
then
i
am
convinced
that
it
will
not
do
it
in
the
life
of
its
mandate
which
the
electorate
gave
it
in
1984
.
{sent}
we
will
have
to
wait
until
the
year
1990
before
seeing
anything
in
the
way
of
stronger
legislation
.
{sent}
that
makes
it
all
the
more
imperative
for
the
government
to
take
seriously
its
own
statement
of
conviction
and
principle
,
the
statements
which
have
been
uttered
from
one
quarter
after
another
to
the
effect
that
the
bill
is
inadequate
.
{sent}
clause
7
contains
a
provision
for
the
levy
of
a
fine
.
{sent}
as
i
have
already
stated
,
the
sanction
here
for
employers
who
do
not
act
on
the
provisions
of
the
bill
apply
only
to
the
reporting
provision
.
{sent}
surely
,
sending
the
bill
back
to
committee
in
order
to
open
up
the
possibility
of
adding
to
clause
5
in
such
a
way
that
employers
will
be
under
the
onus
of
law
to
do
something
about
it
makes
sense
.
{sent}
the
payment
of
a
$
50,000
fine
could
become
a
mere
business
expense
if
an
employer
did
not
want
to
go
to
the
other
trouble
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
$
50,000
would
not
buy
that
much
time
,
if
an
employer
has
to
have
some
skilled
people
working
in
the
area
.
{sent}
a
fine
less
than
the
cost
of
following
through
with
these
measures
is
certainly
tantamount
to
inviting
a
violation
of
the
law
.
{sent}
clause
5
,
the
clause
to
which
i
was
just
alluding
,
ensures
that
employers
do
not
simply
report
on
their
employment
practices
but
actually
implement
plans
.
{sent}
surely
if
the
government
is
serious
about
achieving
employment
equity
as
it
declares
on
the
face
of
the
bill
,
then
we
need
more
strength
in
this
area
.
{sent}
when
thinking
of
the
target
groups
,
i
think
particularly
of
the
visible
minorities
and
people
who
belong
to
ethnocultural
communities
.
{sent}
this
is
not
necessarily
always
a
matter
of
visibility
in
terms
of
colour
or
race
.
{sent}
visibility
can
be
a
matter
of
accents
or
features
that
strike
an
employer
or
personnel
officer
as
being
alien
.
{sent}
then
,
of
course
,
there
are
the
native
people
of
canada
who
are
entering
the
cities
in
large
numbers
seeking
employment
.
{sent}
for
that
matter
,
they
are
seeking
employment
outside
cities
.
{sent}
the
needs
and
concerns
of
the
disabled
and
women
have
been
addressed
eloquently
by
other
members
of
the
house
.
{sent}
surely
a
government
that
states
all
the
good
intentions
the
minister
and
her
parliamentary
secretary
have
declared
should
do
something
more
with
clause
5
if
it
believes
in
those
principles
.
{sent}
the
flaws
in
clause
5
are
overwhelming
.
{sent}
where
will
the
plans
be
kept
?
{sent}
will
they
be
kept
at
the
head
offices
of
the
companies
?
{sent}
there
is
no
obligation
to
tell
anyone
about
the
plans
.
{sent}
in
another
clause
,
there
is
a
provision
for
consultation
with
unions
.
{sent}
how
can
there
be
consultation
if
the
unions
or
whatever
representatives
the
workers
put
forward
do
not
have
a
right
to
see
the
plans
?
{sent}
the
most
shocking
thing
that
those
surveys
of
toronto
employment
practices
demonstrated
was
that
there
was
widespread
discrimination
and
that
employers
did
not
think
that
there
was
anything
wrong
with
that
.
{sent}
in
that
kind
of
a
context
,
surely
we
need
to
lay
the
provisions
on
the
employer
.
{sent}
surely
there
must
be
a
requirement
that
the
plans
be
public
documents
and
be
freely
available
to
anyone
who
wants
to
look
at
them
.
{sent}
surely
the
community
groups
and
those
who
have
been
frozen
out
by
employers
have
the
right
of
access
to
these
plans
if
there
is
to
be
any
kind
of
action
taken
on
them
.
{sent}
i
realize
that
i
am
drawing
near
the
end
of
my
time
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
,
i
wish
to
say
that
i
hope
devoutly
,
with
the
entire
depth
of
my
being
,
that
the
government
will
take
this
seriously
and
will
take
the
bill
back
to
committee
.
{sent}
last
thursday
i
had
a
terribly
depressing
experience
when
,
in
one
vote
,
we
took
care
of
19
amendments
to
the
bill
.
{sent}
the
government
voted
every
one
of
them
down
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
the
words
which
the
then
opposition
leader
and
now
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
said
in
june
,
1984
ring
very
hollow
now
.
{sent}
he
said
then
that
there
is
no
obligation
more
compelling
,
no
duty
more
irresistible
,
than
to
ensure
that
minorities
live
at
all
times
in
conditions
of
fairness
and
justice
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
does
not
do
that
.
{sent}
it
flouts
the
principles
the
prime
minister
stated
before
the
last
election
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
question
to
ask
of
my
colleague
.
{sent}
does
my
colleague
have
any
confidence
that
this
legislation
will
be
a
big
enough
stick
to
bring
about
the
results
that
are
so
greatly
needed
today
?
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
thunder
bay
--
nipigon
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
appreciate
the
question
asked
by
my
colleague
.
{sent}
the
answer
is
certainly
that
i
have
no
such
confidence
.
{sent}
i
think
of
the
situation
in
which
would-be
workers
find
themselves
across
the
country
.
{sent}
i
have
been
focusing
on
toronto
because
the
urban
alliance
on
race
relations
along
with
the
metropolitan
social
planning
council
carried
out
the
kinds
of
studies
that
were
required
there
.
{sent}
these
were
quite
imaginative
studies
which
demonstrated
the
depth
of
racist
and
discriminatory
practices
in
that
city
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
toronto
is
not
unusual
.
{sent}
people
want
to
work
and
they
seek
the
reality
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
those
other
concerns
do
face
us
.
{sent}
this
bill
does
not
provide
any
kind
of
sanction
for
that
kind
of
action
.
{sent}
it
provides
that
a
fine
ought
to
be
paid
if
reports
are
not
made
,
but
there
is
no
provision
for
action
on
any
of
these
matters
.
{sent}
for
a
broken
reed
to
be
offered
the
people
of
canada
as
a
big
stick
is
surely
for
us
to
be
left
with
the
gravest
disappointment
in
what
the
government
claims
to
be
doing
.
{sent}
i
wonder
if
the
legislation
should
not
provide
for
a
larger
fine
in
order
that
it
be
enforceable
.
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
thunder
bay
--
nipigon
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
matter
of
a
$
50,000
fine
is
worth
some
careful
consideration
.
{sent}
the
cost
of
establishing
an
office
to
work
toward
employment
equity
in
a
company
would
,
i
suspect
,
on
an
annual
basis
,
easily
run
to
$
100,000
.
{sent}
the
companies
must
employ
officers
with
the
kinds
of
skills
required
.
{sent}
i
would
expect
that
such
a
person
would
easily
cost
$
35,000
or
$
40,000
per
year
.
{sent}
if
one
thinks
of
secretarial
and
other
costs
,
i
am
sure
it
would
exceed
$
50,000
in
the
way
of
costs
.
{sent}
surely
to
have
a
fine
which
is
less
than
the
cost
of
conforming
to
legislation
is
an
open
invitation
to
have
it
violated
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
that
is
a
final
declaration
on
the
part
of
a
government
which
is
not
really
serious
about
the
matter
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
should
like
to
deal
with
the
point
just
made
by
the
hon.
member
regarding
the
$
50,000
fine
for
non-compliance
.
{sent}
both
the
official
opposition
and
the
new
democratic
party
attempted
to
get
the
government
to
understand
that
$
50,000
was
not
enough
.
{sent}
we
wanted
$
500,000
to
be
the
fine
for
non-compliance
.
{sent}
for
example
,
i
am
referring
to
changes
to
their
buildings
so
that
handicapped
people
will
have
better
access
or
so
their
establishments
will
be
more
secure
and
safe
for
those
who
may
be
blind
,
deaf
,
or
whatever
.
{sent}
i
do
not
see
any
measure
in
the
bill
for
us
to
follow
up
on
this
with
employers
except
to
agree
voluntarily
that
they
will
report
on
their
plans
after
three
years
.
{sent}
for
example
,
access
to
buildings
can
be
difficult
and
there
can
be
problems
in
terms
of
security
and
safety
.
{sent}
does
he
agree
that
perhaps
it
is
merely
symbolic
to
have
a
$
50,000
fine
for
larger
companies
?
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
thunder
bay
--
nipigon
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
is
absolutely
right
.
{sent}
at
best
the
bill
will
be
a
symbol
.
{sent}
we
have
had
a
number
of
such
symbols
since
the
early
1980s
with
the
establishment
of
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
and
the
work
of
several
committees
of
the
last
parliament
.
{sent}
in
early
1984
,
two
years
ago
,
it
declared
the
following
in
the
title
of
its
report
equality
now
.
{sent}
there
were
also
reports
dealing
with
the
situation
faced
by
disabled
people
,
as
another
example
.
{sent}
whether
or
not
the
last
government
was
buying
time
in
appointing
judge
rosalie
abella
as
a
royal
commissioner
to
investigate
this
area
,
i
would
not
want
to
say
just
now
.
{sent}
we
are
very
grateful
to
her
for
having
clarified
for
canada
what
affirmative
action
could
involve
and
the
way
in
which
we
could
make
progress
.
{sent}
there
is
a
terrible
danger
in
that
regard
,
and
i
see
no
readiness
on
the
part
of
the
government
to
face
up
to
that
.
{sent}
if
the
government
accepts
the
motion
and
takes
the
matter
back
to
committee
,
hopes
would
spring
up
somewhat
.
{sent}
mr.
jean-robert
gauthier
(
ottawa
--
vanier
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
appreciate
being
given
the
floor
at
this
time
of
day
because
i
have
several
remarks
to
make
on
the
motion
before
us
.
{sent}
and
i
would
like
to
speak
in
support
of
the
motion
before
the
house
,
mr.
speaker
,
namely
,
that
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
think
that
today
we
have
heard
some
very
positive
comments
on
the
measures
proposed
to
achieve
employment
equity
.
{sent}
of
course
not
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
remind
the
house
that
the
three
clauses
in
question
--
{sent}
clause
3
of
bill
c-62
deals
with
interpretation
.
{sent}
we
also
proposed
that
persons
who
employ
25
people
or
more
should
be
subject
to
the
provisions
of
the
act
rather
than
employers
of
100
or
more
as
defined
in
the
present
state
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
i
will
return
to
my
point
about
federal
departments
and
agencies
being
included
in
the
bill
,
but
first
i
want
to
make
sure
that
i
deal
with
these
clauses
in
order
.
{sent}
clause
5
refers
to
the
action
plans
of
companies
setting
out
their
goals
and
timetables
.
{sent}
we
think
,
in
all
honesty
,
that
they
should
be
made
public
.
{sent}
why
should
they
be
hidden
in
the
vaults
of
the
head
offices
of
national
organizations
?
{sent}
it
could
be
difficult
for
someone
in
vancouver
to
know
exactly
what
is
the
action
plan
of
a
company
which
has
its
head
office
in
toronto
.
{sent}
it
may
be
hidden
in
a
vault
and
may
not
be
accessible
to
anyone
who
wanted
to
see
it
.
{sent}
we
consider
clause
5
to
be
weak
and
would
like
to
see
it
strengthened
by
making
the
action
plans
of
employers
public
and
by
setting
out
goals
and
timetables
so
that
all
of
us
can
see
them
.
{sent}
they
will
prefer
to
pay
the
$
50,000
fine
than
to
become
involved
in
capital
expenditures
or
capital
works
which
may
be
required
to
eliminate
systemic
discrimination
.
{sent}
we
are
talking
about
two
very
different
things
here
.
{sent}
we
are
talking
about
discrimination
as
a
matter
of
fact
toward
four
target
groups
--
women
,
native
people
,
visible
minorities
,
and
the
handicapped
.
{sent}
also
there
is
systemic
discrimination
which
is
inherent
in
the
system
,
in
the
workplace
,
in
our
habits
,
and
sometimes
even
in
our
thinking
.
{sent}
as
far
as
i
am
concerned
,
they
are
discriminated
against
by
a
system
which
is
unresponsive
and
irresponsible
with
regard
to
their
employment
.
{sent}
i
want
to
come
back
to
the
first
point
.
{sent}
at
page
12452
of
hansard
,
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
(
ms.
macdonald
)
said
:
{sent}
i
can
say
quite
frankly
that
in
the
years
before
this
government
came
to
power
i
heard
a
lot
of
talk
about
fairness
and
equality
but
i
saw
no
action
.
{sent}
what
we
are
seeing
here
today
is
a
government
committed
to
action
in
this
field
.
{sent}
where
was
the
minister
in
1982
when
the
charter
of
rights
was
adopted
?
{sent}
she
saw
action
there
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
i
will
remind
her
of
what
was
said
either
by
me
or
by
somebody
else
in
this
house
recently
because
it
is
worth
repeating
.
{sent}
although
i
am
not
very
proud
of
our
record
,
i
am
not
ashamed
of
it
.
{sent}
there
have
been
efforts
.
{sent}
i
must
remind
the
house
that
measures
were
taken
.
{sent}
we
did
take
action
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
we
did
not
do
enough
to
satisfy
many
people
including
your
humble
servant
,
but
i
still
say
that
efforts
were
made
and
that
we
have
to
recognize
this
.
{sent}
things
were
done
,
mr.
speaker
,
but
it
was
not
enough
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
employment
equity
means
that
no
one
should
be
refused
a
job
for
reasons
which
have
nothing
to
do
with
his
ability
.
{sent}
indeed
,
for
us
,
frenchspeaking
canadians
,
mr.
speaker
,
the
native
people
are
a
visible
minority
.
{sent}
thus
we
feel
that
three
groups
might
have
been
enough
.
{sent}
at
any
rate
,
my
view
is
that
there
was
no
need
to
add
that
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
the
quest
for
employment
equity
must
cut
through
all
practices
that
discriminate
against
certain
groups
which
have
long
been
subject
to
such
a
discrimination
.
{sent}
there
must
first
be
an
effort
towards
identifying
and
eliminating
discrimatory
barriers
.
{sent}
and
when
i
speak
of
discrimatory
barriers
,
it
may
be
relevant
to
mention
that
where
practices
of
systems
are
concerned
,
discrimatory
barriers
to
employment
do
now
exist
.
{sent}
as
we
know
,
mr.
speaker
,
people
are
discriminated
against
for
a
number
of
reasons
and
in
a
number
of
ways
.
{sent}
some
are
discriminated
against
because
of
their
economic
or
social
conditions
.
{sent}
well
,
what
do
you
expect
?
{sent}
others
,
for
political
reasons
or
because
they
lack
education
,
vocational
training
.
{sent}
it
is
subtle
,
sometimes
persistent
and
it
is
pervasive
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
there
!
{sent}
it
is
systemic
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
quote
from
page
10
of
the
report
,
concerning
what
judge
abella
views
as
systemic
discrimination
.
{sent}
systemic
discrimination
requires
systemic
remedies
.
{sent}
the
effect
of
the
system
on
the
individual
or
group
,
rather
than
its
attitudinal
sources
,
governs
whether
or
not
a
remedy
is
justified
.
{sent}
remedial
measures
of
a
systemic
and
systematic
kind
are
the
object
of
employment
equity
and
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
it
could
not
be
said
any
better
.
{sent}
judge
abella
has
described
this
quite
well
,
and
i
agree
with
her
.
{sent}
during
the
remaining
minutes
,
i
should
like
to
deal
briefly
with
a
problem
which
concerns
a
great
many
people
in
the
ottawa-vanier
and
ottawa-carleton
regions
.
{sent}
i
refer
to
the
issue
of
applying
this
bill
to
the
main
employer
and
the
federal
departments
.
{sent}
as
you
can
see
,
mr.
speaker
,
this
is
quite
relevant
to
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
as
you
know
,
the
classification
of
a
position
depends
on
the
number
of
points
it
is
given
,
and
the
salary
in
turn
depends
on
the
classification
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
this
is
a
way
to
identify
the
relative
value
of
jobs
.
{sent}
heaven
knows
we
urgently
need
a
thorough
study
of
the
situation
and
an
answer
to
the
classification
problem
!
{sent}
in
the
1984
election
campaign
,
members
of
the
progressive
conservative
party
told
public
servants
:
we
will
put
position
classifications
on
the
bargaining
table
.
{sent}
and
then
they
said
:
we
are
going
to
do
a
study
.
{sent}
and
they
did
.
{sent}
in
the
classification
process
,
the
person
who
did
the
classification
has
decided
how
the
position
is
rated
and
what
the
employee
is
going
to
earn
.
{sent}
and
these
are
very
important
points
for
public
servants
.
{sent}
we
think
there
are
obstacles
in
this
system
which
sometimes
discriminates
against
certain
people
,
and
we
want
to
correct
that
.
{sent}
in
my
opinion
,
mr.
speaker
,
ours
is
a
reasonable
position
.
{sent}
since
the
government
made
that
an
election
promise
,
it
should
at
least
keep
its
word
on
this
and
give
public
servants
the
advantage
of
being
able
to
negotiate
job
classifications
in
the
near
future
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
asked
the
question
:
where
are
these
plans
?
{sent}
i
was
told
today
that
41
strategy
plans
are
available
directly
from
the
departments
.
{sent}
three
departments
have
failed
to
produce
their
plans
.
{sent}
we
will
see
.
{sent}
i
asked
whether
they
were
available
to
the
public
,
and
i
was
told
it
would
take
a
truck
to
transport
them
.
{sent}
can
somebody
on
the
government
side
tell
us
why
the
affirmative
action
plans
in
the
departments
...
perhaps
somebody
might
tell
us
what
this
is
all
about
.
{sent}
are
they
satisfactory
?
{sent}
have
they
been
assessed
?
{sent}
has
anything
been
done
as
a
result
of
this
important
affirmative
action
initiative
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
all
for
it
.
{sent}
and
i
think
every
member
of
this
house
will
agree
.
{sent}
i
know
that
thirteen
unions
are
having
meetings
with
the
treasury
board
representative
every
two
months
,
and
that
a
report
is
to
be
submitted
by
march
1987
.
{sent}
i
hope
to
to
come
back
at
a
subsequent
stage
to
continue
my
comments
.
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
thunder
bay
--
nipigon
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
comment
on
some
of
the
statements
the
member
made
,
and
i
have
a
question
for
him
as
well
.
{sent}
there
was
debate
earlier
this
afternoon
dealing
with
the
strength
or
weakness
of
provisions
for
affirmative
action
in
the
province
of
saskatchewan
.
{sent}
i
note
that
under
the
previous
new
democratic
government
in
saskatchewan
affirmative
action
provisions
were
implemented
for
crown
corporations
,
particularly
in
northern
saskatchewan
.
{sent}
progress
had
been
made
.
{sent}
i
have
a
report
of
a
human
rights
consultant
to
the
department
of
the
secretary
of
state
.
{sent}
the
report
notes
that
when
the
conservative
government
came
into
power
in
saskatchewan
it
made
the
policy
voluntary
for
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
the
consultant
notes
that
the
respondents
are
discovering
that
these
affirmative
action
plans
are
in
no
way
entrenched
within
the
employment
systems
of
all
the
crown
corporations
.
{sent}
with
the
change
in
government
,
the
political
commitment
has
waned
.
{sent}
each
crown
corporation
now
decides
its
own
policy
,
with
the
result
that
the
program
has
become
fragmented
and
dependent
upon
the
particular
commitment
of
the
individual
corporation
.
{sent}
the
report
indicates
that
the
respondents
have
concluded
that
the
weakness
of
their
strategy
lies
in
its
voluntary
nature
.
{sent}
to
what
extent
does
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
feel
that
bill
c-62
reflects
a
similar
turn
by
the
federal
conservative
government
to
a
voluntary
approach
?
{sent}
how
dramatically
does
he
think
the
bill
will
fail
in
achieving
employment
equity
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
order
to
do
justice
to
that
rather
important
question
,
i
invite
the
member
to
read
some
of
the
speeches
that
i
have
made
in
the
last
while
on
this
bill
.
{sent}
in
the
last
election
campaign
in
manitoba
all
parties
paid
homage
to
employment
equity
and
said
that
they
would
commit
themselves
to
that
program
.
{sent}
i
take
it
that
manitoba
was
moving
in
that
direction
.
{sent}
i
am
told
by
my
colleague
,
the
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
,
that
in
saskatchewan
only
five
crown
corporations
have
an
affirmative
action
program
.
{sent}
according
to
press
reports
,
the
government
is
cutting
funds
to
these
companies
and
there
is
also
a
hiring
freeze
.
{sent}
the
present
government
is
not
,
therefore
,
as
enthusiastic
as
the
previous
government
was
.
{sent}
let
us
hope
that
it
comes
to
its
senses
.
{sent}
we
are
told
not
to
believe
everything
we
read
,
but
from
press
releases
i
understand
that
some
actions
were
being
taken
in
saskatchewan
with
regard
to
employment
equity
.
{sent}
british
columbia
has
yet
to
come
up
with
employment
equity
legislation
.
{sent}
my
research
does
not
show
the
existence
of
any
such
legislation
in
b.c.
at
all
.
{sent}
we
are
hoping
that
a
more
sensitive
and
sensible
government
will
come
into
power
there
some
day
and
bring
some
equity
to
employment
practices
.
{sent}
i
call
this
the
smoke
and
mirrors
bill
.
{sent}
that
is
the
title
i
put
on
my
copy
.
{sent}
it
reflects
what
we
all
like
but
it
does
not
do
much
in
the
way
of
action
.
{sent}
i
invite
the
hon.
member
to
read
some
of
the
comments
we
have
made
regarding
the
improvements
to
the
bill
through
the
20-odd
amendments
we
tried
to
get
through
.
{sent}
they
were
all
turned
down
by
the
government
because
members
opposite
do
not
like
constructive
and
worth-while
amendments
to
their
legislation
.
{sent}
they
feel
it
is
sacred
and
therefore
untouchable
.
{sent}
i
disagree
.
{sent}
this
house
should
have
more
understanding
of
the
issues
and
should
debate
them
a
little
longer
.
{sent}
that
is
why
i
want
the
bill
to
go
back
to
committee
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
any
further
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
debate
.
{sent}
as
my
friend
just
indicated
,
it
should
be
called
a
smoke
and
mirrors
bill
,
or
a
fluff
and
puff
bill
,
or
a
magician
's
bill
.
{sent}
now
you
see
it
,
now
you
don't
.
{sent}
in
my
deliberations
with
friends
and
colleagues
across
the
country
there
seemed
to
be
the
impression
that
the
government
is
acting
on
employment
equity
to
some
extent
.
{sent}
the
important
words
there
are
``
to
some
extent
''
.
{sent}
it
is
a
minute
step
in
the
right
direction
on
a
very
long
and
difficult
road
.
{sent}
in
one
sense
it
does
more
damage
than
good
in
that
it
gives
the
impression
that
employment
equity
is
finally
being
recognized
.
{sent}
finally
we
are
going
to
do
something
to
help
the
disabled
,
native
people
,
women
and
visible
minorities
to
experience
equality
and
equity
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
it
is
not
surprising
that
people
have
been
misled
a
little
when
you
read
the
purpose
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
it
says
:
{sent}
we
have
no
concern
regarding
that
purpose
as
stated
.
{sent}
the
point
is
that
the
bill
does
not
do
any
of
that
.
{sent}
it
fails
to
meet
this
purpose
,
this
goal
,
this
objective
.
{sent}
it
falls
far
short
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
you
would
take
my
word
for
it
but
you
do
not
have
to
.
{sent}
you
can
take
the
word
of
suzanne
boivin
of
the
national
association
of
women
and
the
law
.
{sent}
she
says
:
{sent}
nothing
will
change
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
it
is
simply
wishful
thinking
.
{sent}
the
inuit
of
canada
say
that
,
for
aboriginal
peoples
:
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
of
limited
value
.
{sent}
beryl
potter
of
the
coalition
on
employment
equity
for
disabled
persons
had
this
to
say
:
{sent}
like
the
bill
--
it
's
not
even
worth
the
paper
it
's
written
on
--
i
've
never
been
so
disillusioned
in
my
life
as
i
am
with
prime
minister
mulroney
.
{sent}
i
was
a
supporter
of
him
.
{sent}
i
worked
for
him
in
his
campaign
and
i
am
totally
,
totally
disillusioned
.
{sent}
i
will
not
read
the
words
of
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
on
this
issue
in
the
election
campaign
of
1984
.
{sent}
he
has
failed
to
deliver
.
{sent}
i
would
not
want
to
spend
too
much
time
pointing
that
out
because
i
suspect
everyone
is
well
aware
of
it
anyway
.
{sent}
in
a
previous
career
i
had
an
opportunity
to
work
with
the
disabled
,
young
native
people
,
and
those
who
would
be
classified
as
visible
minorities
in
an
attempt
to
find
employment
opportunities
for
them
.
{sent}
i
suppose
i
should
include
women
in
that
as
well
,
but
my
main
experience
was
with
those
groups
i
mentioned
.
{sent}
of
course
they
all
included
women
.
{sent}
that
was
not
many
years
ago
.
{sent}
then
we
went
through
that
process
the
next
day
and
the
same
people
would
be
turned
away
again
.
{sent}
yet
,
when
they
phoned
me
they
would
inevitably
say
,
``
mr.
riis
,
i
am
not
prejudiced
.
{sent}
quite
frankly
,
that
is
a
racist
attitude
.
{sent}
it
is
discrimination
.
{sent}
it
indicates
prejudice
.
{sent}
therefore
,
when
i
look
at
the
provisions
in
this
bill
and
see
what
it
is
attempting
to
accomplish
,
it
hits
very
close
to
my
heart
.
{sent}
it
reminds
me
of
a
very
close
personal
experience
that
occurred
to
me
for
a
number
of
years
.
{sent}
however
,
once
one
had
an
opportunity
to
examine
this
bill
and
hear
the
witnesses
who
came
to
speak
to
the
committee
about
this
bill
,
it
became
obvious
that
it
was
rife
with
flaws
and
filled
with
inconsistencies
.
{sent}
it
was
simply
an
inappropriate
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
one
might
ask
why
it
is
inappropriate
.
{sent}
one
of
the
shortcomings
is
that
there
is
no
mandatory
equity
,
no
enforcement
and
no
real
penalties
.
{sent}
this
legislation
must
be
viewed
as
voluntary
equity
with
mandatory
reporting
of
workforce
data
.
{sent}
those
businesses
over
a
certain
size
that
carry
out
transactions
with
the
federal
government
over
a
certain
amount
must
submit
an
action
program
.
{sent}
although
the
employer
must
draft
an
action
plan
,
there
is
no
requirement
that
the
employer
must
fulfil
that
plan
or
necessarily
introduce
it
.
{sent}
however
,
there
is
a
penalty
pursuant
to
clause
6
,
with
a
maximum
summary
conviction
of
$
50,000
,
if
the
employer
fails
to
act
.
{sent}
we
in
the
new
democratic
party
attempted
to
make
this
penalty
realistic
.
{sent}
heather
reisman
,
who
works
with
the
nesbitt
consulting
group
which
provides
advice
to
these
firms
which
are
interested
or
essentially
forced
to
introduce
a
program
of
equity
in
the
workplace
on
paper
,
said
about
the
penalty
:
``
it
's
squat
''
.
{sent}
the
effectiveness
of
the
maximum
$
50,000
fine
for
failing
to
report
workforce
data
annually
is
something
that
she
says
a
large
company
will
simply
write
off
as
a
cost
of
doing
business
.
{sent}
fifty
thousand
dollars
is
irrelevant
to
a
corporation
of
the
size
essentially
contemplated
by
this
bill
.
{sent}
she
says
that
it
is
``
squat
''
.
{sent}
there
really
is
no
effective
penalty
for
making
no
progress
.
{sent}
it
is
somewhat
pollyannish
and
naive
to
believe
that
employers
throughout
canada
will
implement
equity
programs
for
their
employers
that
will
require
them
to
hire
people
whom
obviously
they
are
not
interested
in
hiring
.
{sent}
nevertheless
,
that
is
the
purpose
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
these
action
plans
were
not
included
in
the
original
bill
.
{sent}
indeed
,
the
minister
claimed
before
the
committee
that
an
action
plan
was
inherent
for
the
company
introducing
equity
.
{sent}
in
a
sense
,
the
government
itself
did
not
consider
that
an
action
plan
ought
to
be
part
of
the
bill
.
{sent}
it
is
an
example
of
how
this
bill
has
not
been
clearly
thought
through
and
needs
to
go
back
to
committee
for
reconsideration
.
{sent}
after
all
,
we
are
theoretically
launching
a
major
new
initiative
for
canada
.
{sent}
we
are
giving
the
impression
that
employment
equity
will
become
a
reality
in
our
country
,
but
the
fact
is
that
it
will
not
happen
.
{sent}
while
some
enforcement
is
needed
,
in
order
for
these
legislative
requirements
to
work
it
is
necessary
to
have
the
general
support
of
the
people
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
that
the
initiatives
in
bill
c-62
simply
will
not
accomplish
that
.
{sent}
i
want
to
comment
on
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
on
many
occasions
members
of
the
government
turned
aside
attempts
to
include
in
the
bill
a
reference
to
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
we
attempted
to
introduce
that
equal
pay
provision
without
success
.
{sent}
the
government
argued
time
and
again
that
the
presence
of
equal
pay
in
the
canadian
human
rights
act
as
it
stands
is
good
enough
.
{sent}
however
,
that
is
not
the
case
.
{sent}
judge
rosalie
abella
is
perhaps
one
of
the
most
knowledgeable
people
in
this
area
.
{sent}
the
clause
on
contract
compliance
is
a
major
weakness
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
in
1982-83
,
the
department
of
supply
and
services
alone
signed
with
federal
firms
literally
over
333,000
contracts
worth
$
5
billion
.
{sent}
such
a
major
undertaking
in
terms
of
government
business
begs
the
question
:
what
is
the
nature
of
the
government
's
contract
compliance
policy
?
{sent}
it
applies
only
to
firms
with
100
or
more
employees
and
only
if
the
value
of
the
contract
exceeds
$
200,000
.
{sent}
the
only
obligation
on
the
contractor
is
simply
to
implement
equity
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
failure
to
do
so
does
not
mean
a
loss
of
a
contract
,
although
such
firm
may
be
removed
from
the
competition
for
future
contracts
.
{sent}
the
firm
``
may
''
be
removed
.
{sent}
there
is
either
a
commitment
in
law
or
there
is
not
.
{sent}
the
fact
that
a
company
may
not
do
further
business
with
the
government
if
it
does
not
comply
indicates
that
this
is
a
rather
limp
wristed
,
milque-toast
approach
to
the
whole
matter
.
{sent}
the
government
's
compliance
policy
does
not
require
a
contractor
to
file
a
report
on
workforce
data
as
is
required
by
those
firms
that
come
under
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
these
are
hardly
owners'
requirements
and
certainly
are
far
inferior
to
the
demands
made
upon
firms
contracting
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
the
approach
in
the
united
states
is
quite
different
and
much
more
serious
than
the
one
reflected
in
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
let
me
say
that
our
party
has
five
concerns
.
{sent}
first
,
there
is
the
absence
of
real
enforcement
and
adequate
penalties
under
mandatory
equity
schemes
.
{sent}
second
,
there
is
no
reference
in
the
bill
to
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
third
,
no
contract
compliance
is
included
.
{sent}
fourth
,
there
is
no
obligation
to
negotiate
equity
where
there
is
a
bargaining
unit
.
{sent}
perhaps
,
most
important
,
the
coverage
of
the
bill
is
inadequate
in
that
it
does
not
include
federal
departments
.
{sent}
if
we
are
serious
about
asking
people
to
take
this
bill
seriously
,
then
surely
its
provisions
should
be
extended
to
include
those
people
,
including
federal
departments
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
are
there
questions
or
comments
?
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
(
mr.
allmand
)
.
{sent}
he
mentioned
the
fact
that
sometimes
they
ran
up
against
this
systemic
discrimination
.
{sent}
based
on
the
hon.
member
's
experience
,
what
does
he
think
about
the
attempt
to
deal
with
this
matter
through
voluntary
enforcement
?
{sent}
the
government
does
not
seem
to
give
us
an
answer
to
the
question
.
{sent}
however
,
when
the
minister
spoke
on
monday
,
she
said
:
{sent}
the
government
is
committed
to
ensuring
that
employment
equity
becomes
a
reality
.
{sent}
we
intend
to
knock
on
the
doors
of
employers
who
do
not
meet
their
responsibilities
.
{sent}
i
can
tell
you
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
we
will
be
knocking
with
a
firm
fist
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
that
if
this
were
an
enforceable
bill
for
employment
equity
then
the
poor
minister
,
or
members
of
her
caucus
,
would
not
have
to
go
around
knocking
on
doors
.
{sent}
so
she
admits
in
her
speech
that
this
is
not
really
an
enforceable
employment
equity
bill
.
{sent}
it
is
one
in
which
,
through
the
publication
of
information
,
the
government
hopes
that
there
will
be
voluntary
compliance
.
{sent}
can
the
hon.
member
tell
us
from
his
experience
with
what
he
was
trying
to
do
in
british
columbia
whether
that
really
worked
?
{sent}
or
do
we
need
bills
with
teeth
in
them
under
which
charges
can
be
laid
and
offenders
prosecuted
when
there
is
not
the
employment
equity
which
we
all
seek
?
{sent}
mr.
riis
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
thank
the
hon.
member
for
his
thoughtful
question
.
{sent}
no
,
i
do
not
think
for
a
moment
that
voluntary
compliance
will
work
.
{sent}
i
think
that
a
bill
without
teeth
is
simply
not
worth
the
paper
upon
which
it
is
written
.
{sent}
quite
frankly
,
i
do
not
want
to
be
part
of
any
bill
which
requires
the
poor
minister
responsible
to
go
out
across
canada
banging
on
doors
.
{sent}
i
hope
she
has
something
better
to
do
with
her
time
.
{sent}
if
she
is
serious
about
providing
employment
opportunities
for
disadvantaged
groups
,
then
she
should
do
it
through
this
bill
.
{sent}
from
her
comments
it
seems
as
if
she
really
does
not
believe
that
this
will
be
an
effective
bill
.
{sent}
she
is
already
looking
forward
to
going
out
door-knocking
,
although
it
is
probably
not
the
type
of
door-knocking
she
was
anticipating
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
question
is
on
the
amendment
.
{sent}
ms.
copps
,
seconded
by
mr.
rossi
,
moved
:
{sent}
that
the
motion
be
amended
by
deleting
all
the
words
after
the
word
``
that
''
and
substituting
the
following
therefor
:
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
amendment
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
in
my
opinion
the
nays
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
call
in
the
members
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
the
amendment
(
ms.
copps
)
,
which
was
negatived
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
40
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
i
declare
the
amendment
lost
.
{sent}
is
the
house
ready
for
the
next
question
?
{sent}
i
will
recognize
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
welcome
this
opportunity
--
{sent}
adjournment
debate
{sent}
proceedings
on
adjournment
motion
{sent}
a
motion
to
adjourn
the
house
under
standing
order
66
deemed
to
have
been
moved
.
{sent}
mr.
keith
penner
(
cochrane
--
superior
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
would
you
call
the
house
to
order
,
please
?
{sent}
mr.
penner
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
draw
to
the
attention
of
the
house
that
under
the
previous
administration
,
a
$
345
million
native
economic
development
program
was
established
.
{sent}
that
amount
was
to
be
expended
over
a
four-year
period
,
beginning
in
april
of
1984
.
{sent}
the
program
was
directed
at
the
development
of
native-owned
businesses
,
including
individual
entrepreneurs
,
corporations
,
and
community-based
businesses
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
remind
the
house
that
in
their
struggle
to
have
aboriginal
rights
recognized
and
implemented
,
native
people
have
had
to
focus
an
inordinate
amount
of
time
on
the
political
process
.
{sent}
as
a
result
,
there
are
a
large
number
of
very
competent
,
articulate
and
successful
political
leaders
in
the
native
community
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
we
in
this
house
of
commons
could
learn
a
lot
about
political
leadership
by
looking
at
the
very
able
political
leaders
in
the
native
community
and
recognizing
their
talents
and
skills
.
{sent}
an
increasing
number
of
native
people
are
turning
to
the
study
of
law
as
a
result
.
{sent}
their
accomplishments
in
that
field
are
many
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
in
the
field
of
economic
development
where
bold
new
action
is
required
.
{sent}
hence
the
reason
for
the
native
economic
development
program
.
{sent}
it
was
designed
to
help
native
people
break
through
the
poverty
barrier
and
open
the
way
for
full
participation
in
the
business
life
of
this
nation
.
{sent}
my
concern
is
that
i
detect
a
distinct
lack
of
commitment
by
this
government
to
that
avenue
of
endeavour
.
{sent}
my
evidence
is
no
less
a
source
than
that
despised
nielsen
task
force
report
on
natives
and
indians
,
the
so-called
buffalo
jump
report
.
{sent}
in
the
year
1985-86
,
$
122.1
million
was
approved
by
parliament
with
a
strong
conservative
majority
.
{sent}
nevertheless
,
in
the
last
fiscal
year
the
minister
allowed
$
90
million
of
that
to
lapse
.
{sent}
it
seems
to
me
the
government
wants
to
bury
the
native
economic
development
program
.
{sent}
i
find
it
difficult
to
blame
the
minister
of
state
for
small
businesses
(
mr.
bissonnette
)
because
i
know
that
his
orders
come
from
the
minister
of
regional
industrial
expansion
(
mr.
stevens
)
.
{sent}
having
been
associated
with
that
minister
for
a
long
time
,
we
know
his
ultra-conservative
and
archaic
philosophy
could
never
support
such
a
program
.
{sent}
we
also
know
that
the
deputy
prime
minister
(
mr.
nielsen
)
is
no
friend
and
ally
of
the
native
economic
development
program
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
he
was
instrumental
in
having
turned
down
the
very
promising
yukon
indian
development
corporation
project
.
{sent}
i
conclude
very
simply
and
quickly
by
asking
why
the
government
does
not
admit
that
it
wants
to
kill
this
program
just
as
it
did
katimavik
?
{sent}
why
not
be
forthright
and
say
so
?
{sent}
do
not
let
the
native
people
of
this
country
go
on
believing
there
is
such
a
program
when
it
does
not
exist
.
{sent}
so
far
there
have
been
900
proposals
under
this
program
.
{sent}
the
applicants
have
been
disappointed
and
frustrated
by
delays
,
postponements
and
,
finally
,
turn-downs
in
most
cases
.
{sent}
economic
development
is
not
a
priority
with
the
department
of
indian
affairs
.
{sent}
only
4
per
cent
of
its
budget
is
directed
to
that
avenue
,
and
most
of
that
money
is
diverted
elsewhere
.
{sent}
therefore
,
we
need
the
native
economic
development
program
.
{sent}
the
government
has
failed
to
recognize
that
,
failed
to
respond
to
it
,
and
i
argue
that
in
doing
so
it
has
made
a
gross
error
.
{sent}
first
of
all
,
i
can
give
the
house
the
assurance
that
the
conservative
government
is
working
very
hard
to
safeguard
the
economic
and
social
interests
of
canada
's
native
peoples
.
{sent}
the
native
community
is
aware
of
the
native
economic
development
program
and
it
uses
it
.
{sent}
this
is
borne
out
by
the
fact
that
more
than
900
project
applications
were
submitted
,
and
out
of
that
number
,
unlike
the
erroneous
figures
you
had
,
145
were
approved
,
representing
a
value
of
$
59.3
million
.
{sent}
the
program
is
very
popular
with
our
native
people
,
no
doubt
about
that
.
{sent}
this
funding
has
not
been
affected
by
budgetary
cutbacks
.
{sent}
the
nedp
plays
a
very
important
role
in
native
economic
development
.
{sent}
it
is
the
only
program
that
is
specifically
aimed
at
developing
the
economic
independence
of
native
people
.
{sent}
it
has
been
estimated
that
this
$
2.6
billion
federal
contribution
to
the
saskatchewan
indian
loan
company
has
generated
more
than
$
46
million
of
new
investments
in
the
provincial
agricultural
economy
.
{sent}
the
same
might
be
said
about
the
association
of
reserves
for
improving
social
economics
which
was
given
$
1.3
million
.
{sent}
thanks
to
this
contribution
,
it
is
expected
that
100
new
businesses
and
400
new
permanent
jobs
will
be
created
in
the
next
few
years
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
these
propositions
are
perfect
examples
of
the
dynamic
and
creative
force
of
native
people
.
{sent}
they
also
emphasize
the
importance
of
the
program
's
effective
assistance
to
the
native
people
of
canada
.
{sent}
mr.
ernie
epp
(
thunder
bay
--
nipigon
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
on
november
18
,
i
addressed
several
questions
to
the
minister
of
state
for
multiculturalism
(
mr.
jelinek
)
.
{sent}
these
questions
reflected
my
understanding
that
the
multiculturalism
sector
was
working
on
a
white
paper
on
multicultural
policy
but
that
this
work
had
been
given
up
under
the
instructions
of
the
minister
.
{sent}
the
answers
that
i
received
did
not
really
clarify
that
question
,
and
that
is
why
i
asked
to
have
a
further
opportunity
to
debate
the
matter
.
{sent}
now
,
more
than
five
months
later
,
it
is
even
more
appropriate
to
ask
what
the
government
's
multiculturalism
policy
is
.
{sent}
those
are
the
words
of
the
minister
aimed
at
bringing
ethnic
minorities
out
of
,
as
he
said
,
``
ethno-cultural
corners
''
and
into
the
economic
mainstream
of
canada
.
{sent}
he
declared
that
the
policy
was
in
the
final
stages
of
preparation
for
cabinet
.
{sent}
he
then
went
on
to
suggest
,
without
any
doubt
about
what
the
result
would
be
,
that
he
was
not
going
to
cabinet
for
additional
funds
.
{sent}
given
that
he
was
talking
about
re-orienting
spending
,
he
said
that
it
would
be
a
redirection
of
existing
funds
.
{sent}
there
is
no
doubt
that
some
organizations
will
be
cut
out
.
{sent}
he
went
on
to
say
that
the
organizations
might
be
involved
in
the
retention
of
culture
and
that
henceforth
there
was
no
question
that
their
grants
would
have
to
be
an
investment
in
canada
.
{sent}
he
concluded
by
stating
:
{sent}
across
the
country
there
is
the
most
intense
unease
about
what
the
minister
has
in
mind
.
{sent}
thus
i
address
this
question
.
{sent}
surely
what
was
needed
was
a
white
paper
on
multiculturalism
in
the
terms
suggested
in
my
question
of
november
18
.
{sent}
surely
it
was
necessary
for
the
intentions
of
the
minister
to
be
laid
out
.
{sent}
it
is
necessary
for
him
to
turn
back
to
the
ethno-cultural
communities
,
since
he
clarified
a
need
for
redirection
,
in
order
to
publish
a
paper
to
which
they
can
react
.
{sent}
some
of
the
strongest
reactions
to
this
move
have
come
from
groups
in
the
province
of
manitoba
.
{sent}
they
feel
left
out
of
the
process
.
{sent}
they
feel
neglected
and
rejected
by
the
minister
.
{sent}
two
days
before
i
asked
this
question
in
the
house
he
met
with
executive
members
of
the
manitoba
intercultural
council
.
{sent}
he
promised
them
there
would
be
no
change
in
multicultural
policy
without
full
consultation
.
{sent}
they
were
promised
that
there
would
be
full
consultation
.
{sent}
it
is
not
surprising
that
in
manitoba
and
in
alberta
there
is
unease
with
what
is
happening
.
{sent}
i
spoke
to
a
leader
of
the
urkrainian-canadian
community
in
alberta
late
last
week
and
he
expressed
his
unease
.
{sent}
he
was
convinced
that
this
was
a
play
to
the
city
of
toronto
and
groups
in
toronto
,
particularly
to
business
groups
.
{sent}
we
might
think
that
the
first
concern
would
be
with
respect
to
those
organizations
involved
with
multicultural
retention
.
{sent}
in
many
cases
,
those
might
be
groups
of
european
origin
.
{sent}
these
people
are
convinced
that
the
minister
may
forget
their
needs
and
not
fund
them
adequately
.
{sent}
they
deeply
resent
the
suggestion
that
he
has
been
spoon-feeding
them
when
,
in
fact
,
they
have
received
precious
little
money
.
{sent}
they
now
see
the
limited
funds
upon
which
they
have
depended
in
the
past
to
stimulate
their
efforts
being
lost
to
them
as
the
government
turns
to
other
business-oriented
efforts
.
{sent}
today
it
is
my
duty
and
pleasure
to
respond
for
the
first
time
in
my
new
capacity
as
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
minister
of
state
(
multiculturalism
)
.
{sent}
the
minister
has
no
intention
of
making
a
policy
shift
,
as
the
hon.
member
has
suggested
.
{sent}
quite
the
opposite
,
we
want
to
make
an
improvement
and
an
up-date
as
this
paper
and
the
proceedures
of
the
department
go
back
to
1971
.
{sent}
there
have
been
many
changes
since
1971
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
the
only
thing
that
is
still
the
same
is
that
the
grass
is
still
green
.
{sent}
there
may
be
serious
grounds
for
improvement
,
but
always
in
consultation
.
{sent}
from
what
i
have
seen
of
my
minister
,
this
is
what
he
is
now
doing
and
he
has
travelled
throughout
canada
.
{sent}
however
,
there
will
probably
be
some
change
.
{sent}
i
remember
this
quite
well
,
mr.
speaker
,
as
it
was
my
birthday
.
{sent}
this
is
what
he
has
done
,
perhaps
not
completely
,
but
it
has
been
done
.
{sent}
however
,
i
trust
that
our
minister
will
continue
to
consult
,
and
what
we
all
want
him
to
do
is
to
consult
and
improve
this
proposal
.
{sent}
canadian
broadcasting
corporation
--
incorrect
reporting
of
gas
prices
alleged
{sent}
of
course
,
this
resulted
in
a
very
inaccurate
statement
of
the
comparison
between
canadian
and
american
gas
prices
.
{sent}
this
is
but
one
example
of
inaccurate
and
biased
reporting
by
the
cbc
.
{sent}
i
have
had
some
correspondence
with
mr.
david
spanjer
of
elliotwood
court
in
my
riding
of
don
valley
east
.
{sent}
mr.
spanjer
has
devoted
much
time
to
analysing
the
content
of
cbc
radio
programming
,
and
he
feels
that
the
coverage
provided
is
not
balanced
.
{sent}
he
wrote
:
{sent}
i
have
no
quarrel
with
this
if
the
reporting
of
the
news
,
the
choice
of
the
discussion
subjects
and
the
selection
of
the
persons
interviewed
was
objective
.
{sent}
unfortunately
,
exactly
the
opposite
is
the
case
--
{sent}
mr.
spanjer
has
written
to
the
cbc
on
several
occasions
and
has
been
very
frustrated
by
the
response
he
has
received
.
{sent}
also
he
wrote
:
{sent}
as
a
taxpayer
i
believe
i
have
the
right
to
response
to
any
reasonable
request
for
information
and
a
reply
to
any
complaint
that
is
properly
documented
.
{sent}
what
in
fact
has
happened
is
that
the
cbc
has
stalled
for
almost
a
year
.
{sent}
this
is
no
way
for
a
publicly
owned
corporation
to
treat
one
of
its
consumers
and
in
effect
one
of
its
shareholders
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
in
his
response
to
my
question
pointed
out
that
programming
and
content
were
the
direct
responsibility
of
cbc
management
and
its
board
of
directors
.
{sent}
i
appreciate
the
independence
of
the
cbc
and
the
need
for
its
independence
.
{sent}
however
,
it
is
no
justification
for
inaccurate
and
biased
reporting
.
{sent}
this
is
clearly
unacceptable
to
most
canadians
.
{sent}
on
april
3
,
the
president
of
the
cbc
,
pierre
juneau
,
announced
the
following
:
{sent}
although
the
cbc
received
an
increase
in
its
parliamentary
appropriations
and
although
the
corporation
anticipates
an
increase
in
advertising
revenue
,
this
still
leaves
the
cbc
with
a
$
48
million
shortfall
in
1986-87
.
{sent}
he
continued
:
{sent}
this
year
the
corporation
has
not
been
able
to
avoid
cuts
in
programming
.
{sent}
even
the
reductions
in
administrative
and
support
expenditures
will
have
an
impact
on
programming
and
distribution
services
.
{sent}
the
cbc
will
eliminate
122
hours
of
network
tv
programming
--
77
hours
of
english
language
tv
and
45
hours
of
french
language
tv
.
{sent}
several
programs
,
such
as
this
land
and
cblt
morning
in
toronto
,
have
been
dropped
.
{sent}
others
have
had
their
schedules
curtailed
.
{sent}
the
article
in
maclean
's
also
indicated
that
the
cbc
earned
more
than
$
33
million
in
unexpected
advertising
revenue
in
1985-86
which
the
corporation
was
permitted
to
keep
.
{sent}
the
article
also
pointed
out
that
the
government
was
giving
the
corporation
an
increase
of
$
22
million
or
2.1
per
cent
for
1986-87
operations
and
capital
expenditures
.
{sent}
the
main
estimates
of
the
government
predict
a
$
55
million
increase
in
cbc
advertising
revenue
.
{sent}
perhaps
that
sends
out
a
message
about
the
quality
of
programming
.
{sent}
this
effort
to
sell
canadian
programming
abroad
is
hardly
consistent
with
the
cut-backs
in
canadian
programming
.
{sent}
not
only
are
examples
cited
of
biased
and
inaccurate
reporting
,
but
of
biased
and
inappropriate
spending
practices
as
well
.
{sent}
cut-backs
of
any
sort
are
difficult
.
{sent}
i
have
had
that
experience
in
my
own
business
career
.
{sent}
however
,
it
appears
that
the
canadian
broadcasting
corporation
needs
to
re-examine
its
priorities
in
terms
of
its
mandate
.
{sent}
it
needs
to
get
at
the
structure
,
the
number
of
senior
vice-presidents
,
the
number
of
vice-presidents
and
perhaps
even
to
merge
departments
.
{sent}
the
provision
of
balanced
and
accurate
news
and
original
canadian
programming
is
a
vital
duty
of
the
cbc
.
{sent}
it
should
also
be
managed
according
to
sound
business
principles
and
practices
.
{sent}
mr.
jim
edwards
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
minister
of
communications
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
issue
of
balanced
coverage
in
our
broadcast
media
is
important
to
all
canadians
.
{sent}
the
free
flow
of
information
is
vital
to
the
functioning
of
democracy
.
{sent}
i
can
well
appreciate
,
therefore
,
the
hon.
member
's
concern
about
the
item
on
gas
prices
broadcast
by
the
cbc
which
was
aired
on
the
national
on
march
7
.
{sent}
as
i
stated
on
march
21
,
broadcasters
themselves
are
responsible
for
program
selection
and
content
,
subject
to
the
general
rules
and
regulations
of
the
crtc
.
{sent}
thus
responsibility
for
cbc
programming
matters
lies
entirely
with
the
cbc
's
management
and
board
of
directors
.
{sent}
i
will
be
forwarding
to
the
hon.
member
a
copy
of
the
full
text
of
that
response
,
but
i
would
like
at
this
time
,
with
your
permission
,
sir
,
to
provide
a
brief
summary
of
it
.
{sent}
according
to
the
cbc
,
the
report
in
question
was
reviewed
by
senior
tv
news
personnel
and
they
found
it
to
be
fair
and
balanced
over
all
.
{sent}
the
cbc
has
an
internationally
recognized
reputation
for
the
quality
of
its
news
and
public
affairs
reporting
.
{sent}
that
is
why
section
3(g)
of
the
act
,
which
sets
out
cbc
's
mandate
,
begins
by
stating
that
the
cbc
should
:
{sent}
--
be
a
balanced
service
of
information
,
enlightenment
and
entertainment
for
people
of
different
ages
,
interests
and
tastes
covering
the
whole
range
of
programming
in
fair
proportion
.
{sent}
i
am
certain
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
these
provisions
of
the
broadcasting
act
have
proven
generally
very
useful
and
that
the
broadcasters
have
faithfully
lived
up
to
their
responsibilities
.
{sent}
the
corporation
has
examined
this
report
and
prepared
a
detailed
answer
in
which
it
recognizes
the
mistake
and
expresses
its
regret
.
{sent}
in
my
opinion
,
mr.
speaker
,
the
reply
of
the
cbc
in
this
case
shows
how
conscienciously
the
corporation
takes
its
responsibilities
as
a
public
broadcaster
.
{sent}
the
acting
speaker
(
mr.
paproski
)
:
the
motion
to
adjourn
the
house
is
now
deemed
to
have
been
adopted
.
{sent}
accordingly
this
house
stands
adjourned
until
tomorrow
at
2
p.m.
,
pursuant
to
standing
order
3(1)
.
{sent}
the
house
adjourned
at
6:34
p.m.
{sent}
s.o.
21
{sent}
house
of
commons
{sent}
wednesday
,
april
23
,
1986
{sent}
the
house
met
at
2
p.m.
{sent}
statements
pursuant
to
s.o.
21
{sent}
expo
86
{sent}
distribution
of
tickets
to
politicians
{sent}
the
new
democrats
and
the
liberals
are
splitting
four
tickets
between
them
.
{sent}
expo
is
going
to
be
a
great
national
festival
.
{sent}
for
the
government
to
convert
this
into
a
political
extravaganza
rather
than
a
national
and
provincial
festival
is
directly
contrary
to
the
unanimity
with
which
people
from
all
three
political
parties
are
approaching
this
particular
event
.
{sent}
i
call
upon
the
government
to
take
politics
out
of
expo
,
give
it
back
to
the
people
,
and
give
it
back
to
members
of
parliament
across
the
board
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
multiculturalism
{sent}
criticism
of
government
policy
{sent}
mr.
ernie
epp
(
thunder
bay
--
nipigon
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
multicultural
organizations
across
canada
are
outraged
by
recent
actions
of
the
minister
of
state
for
multiculturalism
(
mr.
jelinek
)
.
{sent}
these
organizations
have
provided
input
to
the
government
more
than
once
recently
on
the
direction
they
would
like
multicultural
policy
to
take
.
{sent}
they
have
indicated
shortcomings
in
government
action
on
the
policy
and
have
asked
for
more
support
for
their
own
community
acitivities
.
{sent}
while
these
groups
waited
for
the
opportunity
to
discuss
these
policy
matters
,
they
were
suddenly
told
that
the
minister
was
developing
a
totally
new
multiculturalism
policy
which
was
in
the
final
stages
of
preparation
for
cabinet
consideration
.
{sent}
the
minister
did
not
ask
for
advice
on
this
determination
.
{sent}
he
did
not
invite
reaction
to
a
draft
statement
.
{sent}
the
members
of
our
ethnocultural
organizations
and
communities
deserve
a
better
lesson
in
parliamentary
government
than
the
minister
has
provided
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
abortion
{sent}
therapeutic
abortion
committees'
approval
procedures
{sent}
mr.
jim
jepson
(
london
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
death
of
a
young
ottawa
woman
on
january
23
,
1986
,
while
undergoing
a
therapeutic
abortion
,
has
confirmed
what
everyone
suspected
.
{sent}
in
many
cases
therapeutic
abortion
committees
are
no
more
than
a
rubber
stamp
.
{sent}
the
committee
routinely
approves
40
abortion
applications
at
its
weekly
meetings
which
last
only
20
minutes
.
{sent}
that
gives
about
30
seconds
to
the
consideration
of
each
case
.
{sent}
these
factors
should
also
influence
the
decision
of
a
committee
on
an
application
for
abortion
.
{sent}
this
does
not
happen
now
,
and
the
entire
committee
process
is
a
meaningless
farce
.
{sent}
i
urge
hon.
members
of
the
house
seriously
to
consider
changing
our
laws
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
historic
events
{sent}
anniversary
of
armenian
massacre
{sent}
mr.
john
oostrom
(
willowdale
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
1986
will
mark
the
seventy-first
anniversary
of
the
massacre
of
over
1.5
million
armenians
--
men
,
women
,
and
children
.
{sent}
the
latest
text
of
the
united
nations'
committee
report
on
genocide
lists
the
massacre
of
the
armenians
alongside
such
horrors
as
what
the
nazis
did
to
the
jews
.
{sent}
in
1982
the
government
of
canada
,
the
champion
of
human
rights
,
passed
a
resolution
condemning
the
armenian
massacre
.
{sent}
on
april
24
armenians
all
over
the
world
will
be
holding
a
silent
vigil
to
commemorate
the
martyrs
of
the
genocide
.
{sent}
let
us
all
pause
and
reflect
upon
the
armenian
experience
.
{sent}
the
commemoration
of
this
day
will
serve
as
a
warning
signal
against
other
similar
atrocities
.
{sent}
no
act
of
human
destruction
of
such
great
magnitude
can
be
prevented
if
we
permit
one
to
be
forgotten
.
{sent}
tomorrow
,
and
every
april
24
hence
,
should
be
remembered
as
armenian
memorial
day
,
for
nothing
threatens
our
future
more
than
a
refusal
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
unemployment
insurance
{sent}
government
's
decision
to
cut
benefits
--
citizens'
opposition
{sent}
mr.
jean-claude
malépart
(
montreal
--
sainte-marie
)
:
last
week
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
in
the
ridings
of
trois-rivières
and
champlain
.
{sent}
yesterday
i
went
to
the
riding
of
saint-hyacinthe
--
bagot
and
visited
montreal
's
salon
de
la
femme
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
the
people
are
increasingly
angry
with
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
.
{sent}
he
was
booed
in
his
own
riding
.
{sent}
the
representatives
of
the
members
for
trois-rivières
and
champlain
were
booed
in
these
ridings
.
{sent}
the
absent
member
for
saint-hyacinthe
--
bagot
(
mrs.
champagne
)
was
booed
in
her
riding
.
{sent}
multiculturalism
{sent}
importance
of
ethnic
and
cultural
minorities
{sent}
mrs.
carole
jacques
(
montreal
--
mercier
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
today
i
pay
homage
to
distinguished
guests
and
to
businessmen
of
my
riding
's
italian
community
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
we
are
growing
ever
more
aware
of
the
leading
role
played
by
cultural
and
ethnic
minorities
in
canada
's
economic
growth
.
{sent}
our
government
provides
the
ideal
climate
for
them
to
contribute
to
our
country
's
economic
expansion
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
mr.
speaker
,
the
standing
committee
on
multiculturalism
to
which
i
belong
has
been
established
to
foster
and
monitor
the
canada-wide
implementation
of
federal
multiculturalism
policies
.
{sent}
[
editor
's
note
:
the
hon.
member
expressed
her
best
wishes
to
the
businessmen
in
italian
.
]
{sent}
housing
{sent}
residential
rehabilitation
assistance
program
--
application
refusals
in
winnipeg
{sent}
mr.
david
orlikow
(
winnipeg
north
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
residents
of
winnipeg
are
angry
at
the
way
in
which
the
residential
rehabilitation
assistance
program
has
been
unilaterally
altered
by
the
minister
responsible
for
housing
.
{sent}
this
program
has
been
responsible
for
regenerating
entire
neighbourhoods
in
winnipeg
.
{sent}
without
it
and
the
core
intiatives
program
,
parts
of
downtown
winnipeg
could
have
gone
the
way
of
central
cities
in
the
united
states
.
{sent}
last
year
1,200
homes
were
rehabilitated
under
these
programs
.
{sent}
this
year
no
money
has
been
released
as
yet
.
{sent}
a
quarter
of
the
year
is
thus
gone
.
{sent}
people
with
applications
dating
back
as
long
as
two
years
have
been
cut
off
.
{sent}
forty
completed
and
processed
applications
,
just
awaiting
cmhc
signature
,
have
been
turned
down
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
sixty
seconds
.
{sent}
shipbuilding
{sent}
needs
of
industry
in
british
columbia
{sent}
now
,
however
,
is
the
time
to
focus
our
attention
on
the
urgent
needs
of
the
shipbuilding
industry
in
british
columbia
.
{sent}
now
is
the
time
to
proceed
with
construction
of
the
promised
class
8
arctic
icebreaker
.
{sent}
the
icebreaker
will
provide
important
logistic
support
,
and
protection
of
canadian
sovereignty
in
arctic
waters
.
{sent}
it
must
incorporate
the
most
up
to
date
technology
,
be
efficient
,
and
be
built
at
reasonable
cost
.
{sent}
human
rights
{sent}
mr.
jack
shields
(
athabasca
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
dr.
vladimir
brodsky
is
a
russian
physician
who
has
been
sentenced
to
three
years
in
a
labour
camp
for
malicious
hooliganism
.
{sent}
the
kgb
has
offered
dr.
brodsky
his
freedom
if
he
renounces
an
independent
peace
group
he
helped
establish
in
1982
.
{sent}
this
doctor
is
guilty
of
working
for
peace
through
association
with
``
the
group
to
establish
trust
between
the
u.s.a.
and
the
u.s.s.r.
''
.
{sent}
this
case
symbolizes
the
concern
canadians
have
for
efforts
physicians
in
canada
and
other
places
have
made
to
remove
the
threat
of
nuclear
war
.
{sent}
dr.
brodsky
's
internment
relegates
the
status
of
dr.
chazov
and
his
soviet
physicians
for
peace
group
to
that
of
a
russian
progaganda
tool
.
{sent}
it
ridicules
mr.
gorbachev
's
peace
overtures
as
being
only
gestures
.
{sent}
political
parties
{sent}
prince
edward
island
--
election
of
liberal
government
{sent}
mr.
george
henderson
(
egmont
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
on
monday
night
joe
ghiz
and
the
liberals
captured
21
of
the
32
seats
in
the
provincial
legislative
assembly
.
{sent}
they
will
form
the
next
government
,
and
a
strong
government
at
that
.
{sent}
the
winds
of
change
were
so
strong
that
even
a
premier
could
not
hang
on
to
his
own
seat
.
{sent}
there
is
a
clear
message
in
this
resounding
victory
for
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
--
canadians
are
fed
up
with
conservative
policies
.
{sent}
as
i
travelled
door-to-door
with
the
provincial
candidates
,
the
response
was
the
same
--
the
mulroney
government
's
policies
are
hurting
all
canadians
.
{sent}
islanders
were
outraged
by
this
government
giving
less
and
taking
more
.
{sent}
it
is
also
quite
obvious
to
islanders
that
the
prime
minister
is
not
delivering
on
his
promise
to
create
jobs
,
jobs
,
jobs
.
{sent}
yes
,
mr.
speaker
,
the
mulroney
government
has
failed
prince
edward
islanders
.
{sent}
we
now
have
a
strong
premier
who
will
stand
up
and
fight
for
a
fair
deal
for
all
prince
edward
island
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
employment
{sent}
government
's
performance
{sent}
mr.
guy
ricard
(
laval
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
as
we
all
know
,
canada
is
on
the
road
to
prosperity
.
{sent}
more
canadians
have
jobs
,
more
people
are
buying
homes
,
and
more
people
are
seeing
an
improvement
in
their
standard
of
living
thanks
to
the
implementation
of
conservative
policies
.
{sent}
and
i
agree
with
all
those
people
who
have
gone
back
to
work
since
the
september
1984
election
:
``
what
a
relief
to
have
a
job
again
and
to
get
your
pay
at
the
end
of
the
week.1
''
{sent}
we
in
the
progressive
conservative
party
realize
that
the
best
social
program
is
a
job
,
and
that
is
why
we
are
working
so
hard
to
create
new
jobs
for
canadians
each
month
.
{sent}
political
parties
{sent}
criticism
of
government
back-benchers
{sent}
it
was
not
long
ago
that
a
member
on
that
same
side
was
speaking
about
the
need
for
shipbuilding
on
the
east
coast
.
{sent}
this
is
another
example
of
conservative
double-speak
because
the
conservative
cabinet
refuses
to
recognize
the
need
on
either
coast
.
{sent}
i
suggest
it
is
about
time
that
conservative
back-benchers
understood
that
the
public
know
that
conservative
back-benchers
do
not
represent
them
adequately
,
otherwise
action
would
have
been
taken
by
the
cabinet
.
{sent}
aviation
{sent}
international
air
show
--
students'
participation
{sent}
this
impressive
show
is
a
concrete
example
of
the
vitality
of
canadian
youth
.
{sent}
in
addition
,
this
show
is
a
unique
opportunity
for
the
quebec
and
canadian
aeronautics
industry
to
make
itself
known
.
{sent}
oral
questions
{sent}
oral
question
period
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
u.s.
senate
committee
meetings
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
trade
negotiations
with
the
united
states
are
not
yet
under
way
,
yet
the
matter
is
bogged
down
in
the
united
states
senate
by
conflict
,
confusion
,
and
capitulation
.
{sent}
we
're
at
the
foul
stage
period
''
.
{sent}
i
know
that
you
may
find
those
words
unacceptable
,
mr.
speaker
,
but
they
were
uttered
in
the
united
states
senate
.
{sent}
what
backroom
deals
are
being
made
by
the
prime
minister
and
his
government
to
try
to
keep
these
negotiations
on
track
?
{sent}
will
he
tell
the
canadian
people
what
is
behind
these
discussions
?
{sent}
what
is
going
on
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
leader
of
the
opposition
clearly
does
not
believe
that
kind
of
question
himself
.
{sent}
he
makes
little
effort
to
disguise
his
amusement
with
his
own
questions
.
{sent}
what
is
going
on
in
the
united
states
senate
is
germane
to
their
own
democratic
process
.
{sent}
the
administration
is
following
the
prescribed
formalities
.
{sent}
i
assume
that
what
is
taking
place
in
the
united
states
is
their
own
special
brand
of
democracy
,
in
much
the
same
way
as
question
period
is
ours
.
{sent}
when
the
response
is
forthcoming
,
the
government
of
canada
will
respond
.
{sent}
meanwhile
we
think
it
is
the
normal
functioning
of
a
democracy
,
and
we
will
have
to
wait
to
see
what
comes
out
of
the
united
states
senate
.
{sent}
inquiry
if
government
made
concessions
in
negotiations
with
united
states
{sent}
right
hon.
john
n.
turner
(
leader
of
the
opposition
)
:
i
have
a
supplementary
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
it
would
be
amusing
if
there
were
not
so
much
at
stake
for
canada
.
{sent}
if
the
talks
start
from
scratch
,
are
we
going
to
put
everything
on
the
bargaining
table
?
{sent}
the
prime
minister
has
made
a
commitment
to
remove
our
cultural
industries
,
the
auto
pact
,
marketing
boards
and
other
economic
sectors
from
the
bargaining
table
.
{sent}
has
the
prime
minister
made
any
concessions
with
respect
to
these
restrictions
,
with
a
view
to
the
results
of
the
u.s.
senate
vote
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
as
far
as
canada
is
concerned
,
we
have
submitted
a
program
that
responded
to
existing
demands
.
{sent}
we
have
conducted
thorough
consultations
with
all
sectors
in
this
country
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
mr.
bourassa
will
be
interested
,
as
will
other
premiers
,
in
what
backroom
deals
are
made
to
secure
that
consent
.
{sent}
if
there
are
backroom
deals
in
the
united
states
between
the
administration
and
the
senate
,
there
are
backroom
deals
between
this
administration
in
canada
and
the
provinces
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
request
for
parliamentary
debate
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
if
indeed
there
are
negotiations
i
think
a
debate
of
some
kind
would
be
appropriate
.
{sent}
first
and
foremost
it
would
finally
flush
out
where
the
liberals
stand
on
this
issue
.
{sent}
no
one
knows
where
they
are
on
any
issue
.
{sent}
they
are
either
on
both
sides
,
or
none
.
{sent}
canadian
position
{sent}
hon.
lloyd
axworthy
(
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
as
well
.
{sent}
yesterday
in
the
house
he
said
categorically
that
he
would
never
accept
the
u.s.
senate
proposals
which
outlined
guidelines
and
conditions
.
{sent}
canadian
officials
in
washington
are
quoted
in
a
cp
wire
story
today
as
saying
that
the
prime
minister
would
not
automatically
refuse
to
negotiate
under
the
senate
proposals
.
{sent}
what
kind
of
two-faced
game
is
going
on
?
{sent}
why
are
canadian
officials
saying
one
thing
in
washington
and
he
is
saying
another
thing
in
this
parliament
?
{sent}
right
hon.
brian
mulroney
(
prime
minister
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
only
two-faced
game
going
on
here
is
that
this
is
one
face
of
liberal
trade
policy
,
and
over
there
is
the
other
face
.
{sent}
they
are
both
opposite
.
{sent}
i
have
indicated
many
times
that
we
are
looking
for
a
clean
launch
without
preconditions
.
{sent}
we
expect
that
will
be
the
case
.
{sent}
we
hope
there
will
be
a
positive
--
i
do
not
want
to
interrupt
the
right
hon.
leader
of
the
opposition
and
the
hon.
member
from
winnipeg
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
no
,
keep
going
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
is
the
conversation
over
?
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
keep
going
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
go
ahead
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
perhaps
just
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
mr.
turner
(
vancouver
quadra
)
:
the
clean
launch
is
going
under
water
.
{sent}
mr.
axworthy
:
i
always
say
that
every
time
the
prime
minister
looks
in
the
mirror
he
is
getting
two
points
of
view
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
statements
attributed
to
canadian
officials
in
washington
{sent}
hon.
lloyd
axworthy
(
winnipeg
--
fort
garry
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
prime
minister
has
not
answered
the
question
.
{sent}
we
want
to
know
what
canadian
officials
in
washington
are
promising
or
committing
to
on
behalf
of
the
government
.
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
answer
to
the
hon.
member
's
question
is
of
course
not
.
{sent}
the
prime
minister
of
canada
spoke
for
canada
in
the
house
of
commons
yesterday
on
this
question
.
{sent}
that
position
stands
.
{sent}
canadian
policy
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
very
simple
and
straightforward
question
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
that
's
a
change
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
langdon
:
it
is
possible
--
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
first
one
this
session
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
a
simple
question
for
a
simple-minded
cabinet
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
has
the
right
to
put
his
question
.
{sent}
if
the
policy
of
the
canadian
government
is
to
have
a
clean
launch
,
why
are
canadian
officials
in
washington
saying
the
contrary
?
{sent}
did
he
authorize
it
?
{sent}
will
he
stop
it
if
it
is
taking
place
?
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
to
answer
that
very
simple
question
very
simply
,
they
are
not
.
{sent}
conditions
suggested
by
u.s.
senate
{sent}
mr.
steven
w.
langdon
(
essex
--
windsor
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
having
left
our
officials
in
washington
to
play
their
game
while
the
politicians
here
appear
to
play
their
game
,
let
me
pose
this
question
.
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
is
making
a
false
accusation
.
{sent}
finance
{sent}
introduction
of
sales
tax
credit
{sent}
hon.
douglas
c.
frith
(
sudbury
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
hon.
michael
wilson
(
minister
of
finance
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
do
not
think
the
hon.
member
has
looked
carefully
at
the
facts
.
{sent}
what
is
very
clear
is
that
real
disposable
income
for
all
canadians
is
up
this
year
and
will
be
up
again
next
year
.
{sent}
taxes
for
those
who
are
in
the
lowest
income
brackets
are
going
to
be
down
this
year
,
and
he
has
commented
on
one
of
the
reasons
for
that
.
{sent}
i
point
out
to
him
that
mortgage
rates
today
are
at
the
lowest
level
they
have
been
since
1978
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
families'
disposable
income
{sent}
hon.
michael
wilson
(
minister
of
finance
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
for
those
most
in
need
,
taxes
are
lower
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
they
are
nowhere
.
{sent}
mr.
wilson
(
etobicoke
centre
)
:
the
hon.
member
opposite
says
they
are
nowhere
.
{sent}
well
,
i
will
tell
you
jobs
are
being
created
in
many
parts
of
the
country
.
{sent}
five
hundred
and
eighty
thousand
jobs
have
been
created
,
and
that
is
because
of
the
policies
of
this
government
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
canada-united
states
negotiations
--
canadian
position
{sent}
mr.
ian
deans
(
hamilton
mountain
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
for
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
will
the
prime
minister
rise
and
state
categorically
,
unequivocally
,
that
if
there
are
any
conditions
of
any
kind
attached
to
the
american
negotiating
position
in
free
trade
,
we
will
not
take
part
in
the
negotiations
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
knows
that
is
a
hypothetical
question
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
it
is
not
;
it
is
not
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
it
is
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
it
is
not
hypothetical
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
government
members
will
come
to
order
now
,
and
that
includes
the
front
bench
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
knows
that
is
a
hypothetical
question
.
{sent}
order
,
please
.
{sent}
if
he
has
a
question
on
government
policy
i
am
prepared
to
hear
it
.
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
has
been
reported
repeatedly
that
canadian
representatives
and
u.
s.
representatives
in
washington
are
speaking
about
a
deal
being
worked
out
that
has
conditions
attached
to
it
in
advance
of
the
negotiations
.
{sent}
i
ask
the
prime
minister
,
that
being
the
case
will
he
say
categorically
that
canada
will
not
negotiate
at
all
unless
such
conditions
are
absolutely
out
of
the
picture
?
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
for
the
third
time
today
,
that
allegation
about
activities
of
canadian
public
officials
in
washington
is
false
.
{sent}
the
prime
minister
stated
the
position
of
the
government
of
canada
with
regard
to
preconditions
in
this
house
of
commons
yesterday
.
{sent}
social
security
{sent}
inquiry
if
family
earning
$
21,000
can
have
same
revenue
loss
as
family
earning
$
100,000
{sent}
mr.
jean-claude
malépart
(
montreal
--
sainte-marie
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
right
hon.
prime
minister
.
{sent}
is
that
his
kind
of
social
justice
?
{sent}
however
,
i
suggest
that
the
hon.
member
also
look
at
the
assumptions
underlying
the
projections
of
the
council
.
{sent}
for
example
,
the
council
made
the
assumption
,
on
the
conclusions
drawn
by
the
hon.
member
,
that
no
measure
will
be
brought
in
by
the
government
between
1986
and
the
end
of
the
decade
to
improve
the
financial
condition
of
those
in
lower-
income
groups
.
{sent}
it
also
makes
the
assumption
that
there
will
be
no
increase
in
real
earnings
between
1986
and
1990
.
{sent}
i
think
most
members
of
the
house
would
be
realistic
and
say
that
that
is
an
assumption
that
cannot
be
substantiated
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
order
.
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
provencher
)
:
it
should
also
be
noted
that
they
are
making
the
assumption
that
no
one
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
provencher
)
:
i
could
give
more
examples
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
request
for
explanation
concerning
$
10,850
salary
earners
and
$
100,000
salary
earners
{sent}
mr.
jean-claude
malépart
(
montreal
--
sainte-marie
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
supplementary
.
{sent}
and
i
hope
the
prime
minister
will
have
the
courage
to
answer
these
people
himself
.
{sent}
does
the
minister
have
the
courage
to
rise
in
the
house
and
say
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
epp
(
provencher
)
:
i
can
go
on
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
for
example
,
there
is
the
assumption
that
the
surtax
will
remain
until
1990
.
{sent}
it
also
makes
the
assumption
that
the
ontario
taxes
raised
by
mr.
nixon
and
mr.
peterson
,
are
an
example
for
all
of
canada
and
that
those
are
reflected
across
the
country
.
{sent}
furthermore
,
no
provincial
surtaxes
or
credits
are
taken
into
account
.
{sent}
lastly
--
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
order
.
{sent}
those
are
the
facts
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
effects
of
budget
{sent}
mr.
nelson
a.
riis
(
kamloops
--
shuswap
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
.
{sent}
in
other
words
,
certain
people
will
gain
while
others
will
lose
disposable
income
.
{sent}
is
that
his
concept
of
fairness
?
{sent}
how
can
he
live
with
that
kind
of
budget
that
has
been
introduced
by
his
minister
of
finance
?
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
can
live
with
a
budget
and
an
economic
plan
that
have
brought
confidence
back
into
the
economy
.
{sent}
i
can
live
with
a
budget
and
an
economic
plan
that
have
been
the
backbone
for
580,000
new
jobs
,
almost
all
of
them
permanent
jobs
.
{sent}
i
can
live
with
a
budget
and
economic
plan
that
have
shown
the
mortgage
decrease
that
i
just
reiterated
.
{sent}
i
am
sure
the
hon.
member
,
as
finance
critic
,
might
even
have
the
objectivity
to
know
what
some
of
the
savings
would
be
on
a
typical
mortgage
for
an
average
income
family
.
{sent}
that
is
what
i
can
live
with
.
{sent}
personal
and
corporate
tax
projections
{sent}
does
he
think
that
is
fair
and
equitable
?
{sent}
it
is
this
minister
of
finance
who
came
in
with
the
minimum
tax
.
{sent}
those
members
are
not
very
enthusiastic
now
,
after
they
were
touting
it
throughout
the
country
in
the
last
election
.
{sent}
it
is
also
this
minister
of
finance
who
said
that
he
wants
to
bring
tax
reform
and
greater
fairness
to
the
system
.
{sent}
those
are
the
facts
,
and
i
wish
he
would
start
being
honest
about
some
of
those
issues
.
{sent}
canadian
national
railways
{sent}
moncton
rail
shops
{sent}
mr.
dave
dingwall
(
cape
breton
--
east
richmond
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
he
will
know
that
the
government
of
new
brunswick
has
commissioned
an
economic
impact
study
on
the
possible
closure
of
the
cn
shops
in
moncton
.
{sent}
the
loss
of
jobs
and
the
social
costs
would
be
horrendous
.
{sent}
will
the
minister
explain
to
the
house
why
he
is
refusing
to
take
any
positive
action
to
protect
those
1,200
jobs
in
the
cn
shops
in
moncton
?
{sent}
hon.
don
mazankowski
(
minister
of
transport
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
government
is
not
refusing
to
take
positive
action
.
{sent}
we
are
working
very
closely
with
cn
and
others
to
ensure
that
the
excess
capacity
within
the
main
shop
system
of
the
cnr
can
be
alleviated
and
handled
in
a
fair
and
equitable
manner
.
{sent}
request
for
protection
of
jobs
{sent}
will
he
categorically
agree
that
those
1,200
jobs
will
be
protected
and
the
250
people
on
lay-off
will
be
rehired
?
{sent}
at
that
time
any
action
that
may
be
contemplated
with
respect
to
rationalization
or
adjustment
will
be
announced
,
and
any
action
will
be
taken
in
a
fair
and
equitable
manner
.
{sent}
challenge
'
86
{sent}
creation
of
jobs
for
students
by
private
sector
{sent}
mr.
howard
mccurdy
(
windsor
--
walkerville
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
.
{sent}
the
minister
challenged
the
private
sector
to
create
career
related
summer
jobs
for
students
in
1985
.
{sent}
according
to
her
department
's
own
program
evaluation
,
the
private
sector
failed
to
deliver
.
{sent}
hon.
andrée
champagne
(
minister
of
state
(
youth
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
in
1984
,
10
per
cent
of
jobs
created
for
students
in
the
summer
came
from
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
in
1985
,
32
per
cent
came
from
the
private
sector
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mrs.
champagne
(
saint-hyacinthe
--
bagot
)
:
in
1984
effectively
12
per
cent
of
the
jobs
were
related
to
the
careers
for
which
young
people
were
studying
.
{sent}
in
1985
the
figure
is
67
per
cent
.
{sent}
in
1986
it
will
be
even
better
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
ask
another
one
,
howard
.
{sent}
minister
's
position
{sent}
career
related
jobs
were
more
frequent
in
the
non-private
sector
.
{sent}
why
is
she
playing
this
game
with
the
taxpayers
and
the
students
in
respect
to
job
creation
rather
than
putting
money
into
the
hands
of
the
non-private
sector
to
create
jobs
for
those
who
need
them
?
{sent}
that
is
what
this
government
is
working
to
achieve
.
{sent}
non-profit
projects
{sent}
hon.
warren
allmand
(
notre-dame-de-grâce
--
lachine
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
and
it
concerns
the
same
matter
that
was
just
raised
.
{sent}
the
quota
on
non-profit
projects
is
still
too
inflexible
under
challenge
'
86
.
{sent}
many
excellent
volunteer
community
projects
are
not
being
funded
.
{sent}
i
can
say
now
that
the
program
challenge
'
86
is
a
runaway
success
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
mr.
crosbie
:
absolutely
.
{sent}
mr.
orlikow
:
the
money
isn't
used
up
.
{sent}
miss
macdonald
:
the
fact
is
that
we
have
received
58,000
proposals
,
the
largest
number
of
proposals
which
have
ever
come
in
.
{sent}
many
of
them
are
from
the
private
sector
and
they
bring
with
them
$
150
million
more
for
jobs
for
young
people
this
summer
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
do
not
know
how
she
knows
challenge
'
86
is
already
a
great
success
when
it
has
not
even
started
yet
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
more
applications
than
ever
.
{sent}
mr.
darling
:
wake
up
.
{sent}
mr.
allmand
:
but
her
evaluation
program
for
challenge
'
85
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
vancouver
food
bank
proposal
{sent}
will
the
minister
explain
that
?
{sent}
will
she
not
change
the
rules
while
she
still
has
time
?
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
once
again
,
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
to
advise
the
hon.
member
that
he
is
wrong
.
{sent}
that
proposal
was
approved
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
oh
,
oh
!
{sent}
employment
{sent}
inquiry
when
community
futures
program
will
come
into
effect
in
quebec
{sent}
mr.
gabriel
fontaine
(
lévis
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
.
{sent}
her
department
has
announced
the
community
futures
program
.
{sent}
can
the
minister
tell
the
house
when
quebecers
will
be
able
to
benefit
from
the
practical
application
of
this
program
?
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
as
members
of
the
house
of
commons
will
know
,
we
are
at
the
present
time
briefing
all
members
on
the
community
futures
program
.
{sent}
we
will
continue
to
do
that
.
{sent}
i
can
assure
the
hon.
member
and
,
indeed
,
all
hon.
members
,
that
the
first
community
to
be
named
under
the
new
community
futures
program
will
be
announced
within
a
couple
of
weeks
.
{sent}
external
affairs
{sent}
nicaragua
--
views
of
united
states
president
{sent}
mr.
derek
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
does
the
canadian
government
share
president
reagan
's
view
that
nicaragua
is
part
of
``
the
international
terrorism
network
''
with
libya
and
should
also
be
dealt
with
by
force
of
arms
?
{sent}
that
is
why
the
policy
of
canada
has
been
directed
along
two
channels
.
{sent}
one
has
been
the
encouragement
of
development
assistance
,
and
the
second
has
been
the
encouragement
of
the
contadora
process
.
{sent}
that
remains
our
policy
.
{sent}
u.s.
sponsorship
of
contras
{sent}
mr.
derek
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
direct
my
second
question
to
the
prime
minister
and
i
hope
he
will
reply
.
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
what
?
{sent}
mr.
riis
:
name
one
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
shame
!
{sent}
mr.
clark
(
yellowhead
)
:
there
are
others
here
who
want
to
use
the
influence
that
canada
has
to
mount
an
effective
world
response
to
the
causes
of
terrorism
.
{sent}
the
problem
,
as
was
evidenced
in
libya
,
is
that
the
americans
found
themselves
in
a
position
where
there
was
no
alternative
--
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
oh
,
yes
,
there
was
.
{sent}
mr.
clark
(
yellowhead
)
:
--
but
a
military
alternative
.
{sent}
our
challenge
must
be
to
work
with
our
allies
and
friends
to
build
alternative
responses
to
international
terrorism
.
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
there
is
an
alternative
and
you
know
what
it
is
.
{sent}
petro-canada
{sent}
ending
of
volume
discounts
to
western
farmers
{sent}
mr.
maurice
foster
(
algoma
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
genial
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
.
{sent}
what
is
the
minister
going
to
do
about
this
unfair
and
inequitable
arrangement
,
especially
when
our
western
farmers
are
facing
such
difficult
times
?
{sent}
i
suggest
the
hon.
member
take
this
issue
up
with
the
company
concerned
.
{sent}
request
that
minister
intervene
{sent}
mr.
maurice
foster
(
algoma
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
problem
is
that
all
companies
,
including
petro-canada
,
operate
in
the
same
way
.
{sent}
since
that
is
the
case
,
petro-canada
can
give
some
leadership
.
{sent}
would
the
minister
contact
the
president
of
petro-canada
and
ask
that
company
to
reinstate
the
volume
discount
it
had
given
in
previous
years
,
which
amounted
to
about
eight
cents
per
litre
?
{sent}
hon.
pat
carney
(
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
will
take
that
as
representation
and
get
back
to
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
customs
tariff
{sent}
korean
steel
imports
{sent}
mr.
simon
de
jong
(
regina
east
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
now
apparently
the
tribunal
has
found
that
the
import
of
cheap
korean
steel
is
hurting
ipsco
and
other
steel
operations
in
canada
.
{sent}
i
ask
again
why
canada
is
the
only
country
still
giving
the
koreans
preferential
treatment
?
{sent}
and
will
it
be
terminated
soon
?
{sent}
hon.
michael
wilson
(
minister
of
finance
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
believe
i
have
indicated
to
the
hon.
member
that
this
matter
is
something
which
should
best
be
dealt
with
by
the
tariff
board
.
{sent}
that
is
the
normal
process
which
should
be
followed
.
{sent}
once
that
process
has
been
completed
we
can
then
consider
our
options
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
supplementary
?
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
supplementary
question
,
the
hon.
member
for
nickel
belt
.
{sent}
prime
minister
's
forthcoming
visit
to
south
korea
{sent}
mr.
john
r.
rodriguez
(
nickel
belt
)
:
thank
you
very
much
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
mr.
darling
:
that
's
supplementary
to
what
?
{sent}
mr.
hnatyshyn
:
that
is
about
as
supplementary
as
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
it
is
very
difficult
to
find
that
a
supplementary
question
to
the
first
question
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
sorry
,
that
is
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
that
is
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
that
is
a
supplementary
question
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
nickel
belt
--
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
that
is
a
supplementary
question
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
not
in
my
view
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
gatineau
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
that
is
a
supplementary
.
{sent}
no
,
that
is
a
supplementary
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
for
nickel
belt
will
resume
his
seat
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
my
colleague
has
referred
to
what
seems
to
be
preferential
treatment
for
south
korean
steel
and
i
am
asking
the
prime
minister
about
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
give
the
hon.
member
for
nickel
belt
my
last
warning
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
--
his
visit
to
south
korea
and
the
support
of
this
government
for
south
korean
steel
.
{sent}
that
is
what
i
am
asking
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
out
.
{sent}
out
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
am
forced
to
name
the
hon.
member
for
nickel
belt
.
{sent}
he
is
required
to
leave
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
out
,
out
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
he
knows
i
am
right
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
am
required
to
name
the
hon.
member
for
nickel
belt
.
{sent}
i
must
ask
him
to
leave
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
he
knows
i
am
right
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
out
.
{sent}
mr.
rodriguez
:
he
knows
i
am
right
.
{sent}
mr.
de
jong
:
the
great
korean
connection
.
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
``
the
manchurian
candidate
''
.
{sent}
and
mr.
rodriguez
having
withdrawn
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
for
york
west
.
{sent}
immigration
{sent}
russian
army
defectors
in
afghanistan
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
state
for
immigration
.
{sent}
can
the
minister
confirm
that
his
department
issued
or
was
in
the
process
of
issuing
ministerial
permits
?
{sent}
and
if
so
,
why
are
those
six
individuals
not
here
now
?
{sent}
who
vetoed
his
order
?
{sent}
certainly
we
on
this
side
of
the
house
want
to
do
everything
we
can
to
bring
those
pows
from
captivity
to
freedom
.
{sent}
i
would
hope
there
would
be
some
understanding
this
time
within
the
liberal
party
of
the
sensitivity
of
this
kind
of
operation
,
and
that
we
would
have
co-operation
on
the
floor
of
this
house
.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
mr.
speaker
,
there
is
growing
evidence
that
there
is
clear
political
interference
by
the
minister
of
state
for
external
affairs
.
{sent}
alleged
ministerial
correspondence
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
i
will
direct
my
second
question
to
the
minister
of
state
for
immigration
.
{sent}
and
will
he
table
that
letter
so
we
can
find
out
the
truth
?
{sent}
voluntary
organizations
{sent}
financing
of
charitable
organizations
{sent}
mrs.
claudy
mailly
(
gatineau
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
should
like
to
put
a
question
to
the
minister
of
finance
.
{sent}
this
being
national
volunteer
week
,
can
the
minister
tell
us
the
status
of
discussions
with
the
national
volunteer
organization
concerning
the
funding
of
charitable
organizations
?
{sent}
these
discussions
will
continue
.
{sent}
that
is
a
matter
that
is
best
dealt
with
in
a
budget
.
{sent}
i
would
expect
that
there
will
be
something
that
we
could
discuss
at
the
time
of
the
next
budget
.
{sent}
trade
{sent}
syrian
grain
market
--
protection
of
canadian
farmers
{sent}
mr.
rod
murphy
(
churchill
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
the
prime
minister
has
indicated
that
he
and
the
government
are
going
to
make
representations
to
the
government
of
the
united
states
to
protect
the
interests
of
canadian
grain
growers
with
regard
to
markets
that
are
traditionally
ours
in
syria
.
{sent}
i
should
add
that
we
do
not
intend
to
limit
our
action
to
the
protection
of
canadian
grain
markets
in
syria
.
{sent}
we
are
going
to
protect
traditional
canadian
grain
markets
anywhere
in
the
world
where
they
are
threatened
.
{sent}
government
position
{sent}
mr.
rod
murphy
(
churchill
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
minister
knows
that
the
bicep
program
is
being
used
now
to
take
away
our
traditional
market
.
{sent}
what
action
has
the
government
taken
to
protect
that
very
important
canadian
market
?
{sent}
canada
has
begun
at
the
oecd
to
raise
strong
warnings
about
the
dangers
that
provides
for
canadian
producers
,
and
indeed
for
producers
in
the
third
world
.
{sent}
pharmaceutical
industry
{sent}
views
of
provincial
health
ministers
{sent}
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
consumer
and
corporate
affairs
.
{sent}
is
the
minister
aware
of
this
opposition
by
provincial
health
ministers
,
or
is
this
just
another
example
of
the
government
's
lack
of
consultation
?
{sent}
hon.
jake
epp
(
minister
of
national
health
and
welfare
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
should
know
that
there
is
not
a
lack
of
consultation
.
{sent}
not
many
months
ago
the
argument
was
that
we
should
quit
consulting
and
start
taking
decisions
.
{sent}
now
it
is
the
other
way
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
tell
the
hon.
member
that
i
will
be
meeting
with
the
health
ministers
on
april
28
.
{sent}
content
of
proposed
legislation
{sent}
since
the
health
ministers
of
the
provinces
are
opposed
to
this
legislation
,
will
the
minister
now
admit
that
the
legislation
just
will
not
wash
?
{sent}
i
think
my
relations
with
provincial
health
ministers
are
pretty
good
.
{sent}
on
april
28
i
will
discuss
this
or
any
other
issues
they
wish
to
raise
with
me
.
{sent}
nuclear
armaments
{sent}
accidents
on
u.s.
naval
vessels
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
ask
your
seatmate
,
the
hon.
member
for
yorkton
--
melville
.
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
prepared
,
of
course
,
on
this
matter
to
defer
to
my
temporary
seatmate
.
{sent}
mr.
mulroney
:
welcome
aboard
!
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
hear
,
hear
!
{sent}
mr.
clark
(
yellowhead
)
:
the
practice
of
the
canadian
government
will
conform
with
canadian
law
respecting
access
to
information
.
{sent}
if
the
hon.
member
wishes
to
make
an
application
under
that
law
,
i
can
assure
him
i
will
facilitate
a
response
to
it
.
{sent}
visits
to
vancouver
{sent}
mr.
jim
fulton
(
skeena
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
of
course
i
have
already
applied
under
the
freedom
of
information
legislation
.
{sent}
my
supplementary
question
is
directed
to
the
prime
minister
.
{sent}
as
the
prime
minister
is
probably
aware
,
vancouver
has
voted
itself
a
nuclear
weapons
free
zone
.
{sent}
right
hon.
joe
clark
(
secretary
of
state
for
external
affairs
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
for
skeena
has
been
away
from
his
province
for
too
long
.
{sent}
i
can
confirm
that
not
only
is
downtown
vancouver
in
this
country
but
it
is
in
the
heart
of
the
preoccupation
of
the
government
.
{sent}
that
is
one
of
the
policies
to
which
we
are
committed
as
an
ally
.
{sent}
tourism
{sent}
canadian
pavilion
at
epcot
centre
{sent}
mrs.
mary
collins
(
capilano
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
tourism
.
{sent}
he
and
i
have
received
many
complaints
about
the
canadian
pavilion
at
the
epcot
centre
at
disney
world
in
florida
.
{sent}
it
certainly
does
not
reflect
accurately
our
country
or
our
people
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
hon.
jack
murta
(
minister
of
state
(
tourism
)
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
just
so
happens
that
we
do
have
jurisdiction
for
that
particular
part
of
the
country
.
{sent}
my
officials
and
the
officials
of
disney
productions
met
on
april
10
.
{sent}
unemployment
insurance
{sent}
consequences
of
change
in
regulations
--
request
for
clarification
concerning
announcement
{sent}
mr.
alfonso
gagliano
(
saint-léonard
--
anjou
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
my
question
is
directed
to
the
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
.
{sent}
on
several
occasions
the
minister
stated
in
this
house
that
she
had
given
ample
notice
of
the
consequences
of
regulations
on
unemployment
insurance
and
pension
income
.
{sent}
could
she
explain
why
unemployment
insurance
offices
were
so
advised
by
telex
on
december
30
,
1985
and
not
before
?
{sent}
claimants
then
receiving
pension
income
from
previous
employment
will
have
this
pension
income
taken
into
account
for
ui
purposes
only
after
that
date
.
''
{sent}
minister
's
attitude
{sent}
also
it
was
discussed
widely
across
the
country
.
{sent}
i
can
assure
--
{sent}
mr.
deans
:
how
many
members
accepted
it
?
{sent}
i
can
assure
him
that
he
and
many
others
in
the
house
raised
the
issue
on
a
number
of
occasions
so
that
it
was
widely
know
.
{sent}
i
cannot
say
that
everyone
accepted
it
,
no
.
{sent}
privilege
{sent}
privilege
{sent}
challenge
'
86
--
funding
of
vancouver
food
bank
{sent}
we
have
just
received
a
telephone
call
from
vancouver
during
which
those
responsible
said
that
they
had
no
knowledge
whatsoever
of
being
funded
under
that
program
.
{sent}
is
the
minister
now
announcing
approval
for
the
program
in
the
house
of
commons
when
we
ask
questions
?
{sent}
hon.
flora
macdonald
(
minister
of
employment
and
immigration
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
be
pleased
to
comment
on
this
.
{sent}
approvals
come
from
my
office
,
and
i
want
to
make
sure
the
hon.
member
knows
that
i
indeed
approved
that
project
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
there
is
no
point
of
order
or
question
of
privilege
.
{sent}
terrorism
--
statement
of
minister
{sent}
i
should
like
to
know
the
implication
of
that
answer
.
{sent}
was
he
referring
to
me
as
using
terrorism
?
{sent}
was
he
referring
to
any
members
of
my
caucus
as
involved
in
or
using
terrorism
?
{sent}
was
he
referring
to
members
of
the
other
opposition
party
?
{sent}
to
whom
was
he
referring
?
{sent}
it
was
a
very
serious
statement
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
knows
full
well
that
that
is
not
a
question
of
privilege
.
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
impinges
upon
privileges
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
there
conceivably
could
be
an
arguable
point
of
order
,
but
it
is
certainly
not
a
question
of
privilege
.
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
i
will
do
it
on
a
point
of
order
,
then
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
let
the
hon.
member
finish
because
i
took
it
that
he
was
raising
what
in
fact
was
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
no
reference
was
made
to
any
member
to
my
knowledge
.
{sent}
i
listened
.
{sent}
mr.
blaikie
:
check
the
``
blues
''
.
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
with
due
respect
,
mr.
speaker
,
when
a
minister
of
the
crown
--
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
is
the
hon.
member
asking
me
to
check
the
``
blues
''
to
determine
whether
in
fact
there
was
unparliamentary
use
of
language
?
{sent}
mr.
blackburn
(
brant
)
:
yes
,
please
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
i
would
be
happy
to
do
so
.
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
routine
proceedings
{sent}
petitions
{sent}
government
response
{sent}
interparliamentary
delegations
{sent}
interparliamentary
delegations
{sent}
presentation
of
fourth
report
of
canadian-nato
parliamentary
association
{sent}
committee
report
{sent}
private
members'
business
{sent}
presentation
of
first
report
of
standing
committee
{sent}
order
paper
questions
{sent}
question
on
the
order
paper
{sent}
(
questions
answered
orally
are
indicated
by
an
asterisk
.
)
{sent}
mr.
doug
lewis
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
following
question
will
be
answered
today
:
no.
116
.
{sent}
national
arts
centre
{sent}
question
no.
116
--
mr.
robichaud
:
{sent}
1
.
{sent}
does
the
national
arts
centre
plan
to
close
its
doors
during
the
peak
tourist
season
in
order
to
compensate
for
the
$
1
million
budgetary
cuts
?
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
was
the
minister
of
communications
advised
that
the
nac
was
unable
to
assume
such
cuts
?
{sent}
3
.
{sent}
was
the
minister
advised
that
in
order
to
compensate
for
such
cuts
,
the
nac
would
have
to
close
its
doors
and
lose
prime
tourist
input
?
{sent}
4
.
{sent}
did
the
minister
request
a
report
and
seek
the
advice
of
nac
management
prior
to
the
cuts
?
{sent}
hon.
marcel
masse
(
minister
of
communications
)
:
i
am
informed
by
the
national
arts
centre
as
follows
:
{sent}
1
.
{sent}
in
doing
so
,
every
attempt
will
be
made
to
preserve
both
the
quality
and
quantity
of
onstage
programming
;
so
far
as
may
be
feasible
,
therefore
,
reductions
in
net
expenditures
will
be
effected
from
``
support
''
services
.
{sent}
it
is
not
likely
,
however
,
that
onstage
programming
will
be
totally
unaffected
.
{sent}
in
so
far
as
the
department
of
communications
is
concerned
,
the
reply
to
the
above
question
is
as
follows
:
{sent}
2
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
communications
was
not
advised
that
the
national
arts
centre
was
unable
to
sustain
a
budget
reduction
.
{sent}
3
.
{sent}
no.
{sent}
4
.
{sent}
the
minister
of
communications
expressed
his
interest
,
at
the
time
,
to
conduct
a
review
of
the
role
and
mandate
of
the
national
arts
centre
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
ask
that
the
remaining
questions
be
allowed
to
stand
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
the
question
enumerated
by
the
parliamentary
secretary
has
been
answered
.
{sent}
shall
the
remaining
questions
stand
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
motions
for
papers
{sent}
mr.
doug
lewis
(
parliamentary
secretary
to
president
of
the
privy
council
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
ask
that
all
notices
of
motions
for
the
production
of
papers
be
allowed
to
stand
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
:
shall
all
notices
of
motions
be
allowed
to
stand
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
employment
equity
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
of
course
the
bill
deals
with
employment
equity
.
{sent}
it
results
from
the
recommendations
of
judge
abella
in
her
report
released
in
november
,
1984
.
{sent}
it
has
been
a
difficult
struggle
for
many
groups
.
{sent}
it
has
been
a
tiring
and
long
fight
for
the
target
groups
about
whom
we
are
talking
,
to
gain
their
rights
.
{sent}
of
course
i
am
talking
about
native
people
,
visible
minorities
,
handicapped
,
and
women
.
{sent}
in
our
view
there
is
no
question
that
the
bill
must
be
strengthened
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
requires
teeth
and
some
real
action
.
{sent}
we
are
disappointed
that
the
government
has
not
seen
fit
to
accept
the
many
amendments
which
we
proposed
to
strengthen
the
bill
.
{sent}
there
is
no
way
we
can
expect
movement
toward
full
employment
equity
unless
the
federal
government
and
parliament
set
an
example
.
{sent}
i
remind
hon.
members
that
parliament
is
excluded
from
bill
c-62
,
which
means
the
house
of
commons
,
the
library
of
parliament
,
and
the
senate
.
{sent}
the
bill
also
excludes
all
departments
and
ministries
which
fall
under
the
jurisdiction
of
the
treasury
board
as
the
employer
.
{sent}
it
should
have
real
teeth
,
and
real
enforcement
of
employment
should
be
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
the
bill
falls
short
of
the
expectations
of
the
target
groups
for
whom
it
was
meant
.
{sent}
what
seems
obvious
to
us
is
that
it
is
an
advance
,
but
a
timid
advance
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
demonstrates
again
that
the
tories
talk
a
good
line
on
fairness
but
a
type
of
fairness
only
they
can
see
.
{sent}
the
minister
,
of
course
,
can
issue
guidelines
.
{sent}
we
all
know
that
,
but
that
is
somewhat
of
a
weak
position
.
{sent}
nothing
in
the
bill
says
that
she
can
apply
them
,
except
that
she
may
,
if
she
wants
.
{sent}
the
bill
does
not
contain
a
clear
definition
of
employment
equity
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
crown
corporations
and
companies
engaged
in
federal
work
must
submit
reports
within
three
years
.
{sent}
that
is
what
it
says
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
analyzing
and
consolidating
this
information
can
be
done
by
the
minister
.
{sent}
as
i
said
before
,
and
i
have
said
it
several
times
,
since
1971
parliament
has
adopted
a
number
of
measures
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
mention
a
few
statistics
.
{sent}
in
1984
,
92,093
or
41.1
per
cent
were
employed
by
the
public
service
of
canada
.
{sent}
in
1985
,
92,800
or
41.6
per
cent
.
{sent}
we
can
therefore
say
that
roughly
8
per
cent
of
employees
in
management
positions
are
women
.
{sent}
the
percentage
rose
slightly
to
82.6
in
1984
and
82.7
in
1985
.
{sent}
so
the
rising
trend
is
unmistakable
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
wanted
to
say
that
because
it
is
important
to
have
indicators
or
signs
showing
where
we
are
headed
with
respect
to
employment
equity
.
{sent}
we
had
trouble
getting
them
into
the
visitors'
gallery
.
{sent}
we
all
know
that
our
elevators
are
difficult
to
operate
for
people
with
physical
handicaps
,
for
instance
,
people
in
a
wheelchair
.
{sent}
just
try
and
press
the
button
to
call
the
elevator
,
just
try
not
getting
stuck
while
the
doors
are
closing
,
when
you
are
in
a
wheelchair
.
{sent}
it
is
well
nigh
impossible
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
these
are
things
we
could
reasonably
expect
to
be
provided
by
a
body
system
that
wants
all
the
latest
technology
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
these
things
do
exist
right
here
in
ottawa
.
{sent}
last
night
,
i
went
to
see
one
of
my
friends
,
roger
thibault
.
{sent}
i
think
this
is
shocking
!
{sent}
i
hope
there
will
now
be
a
movement
so
that
we
in
parliament
will
show
leadership
.
{sent}
the
situation
is
the
same
in
all
government
buildings
--
physical
access
difficulties
,
mobility
obstacles
,
and
safety
problems
for
the
handicapped
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
rather
not
spend
too
much
time
on
this
point
because
i
think
i
have
made
myself
very
clear
.
{sent}
we
must
admit
there
are
systemic
measures
,
systemic
problems
which
are
not
necessarily
planned
that
way
but
which
we
will
have
to
solve
.
{sent}
in
all
serenity
we
will
have
to
find
solutions
.
{sent}
they
demonstrate
,
without
a
doubt
,
that
there
is
an
imbalance
,
both
in
statistical
and
monetary
terms
.
{sent}
everyone
knows
that
women
earn
lower
average
incomes
.
{sent}
it
is
a
fact
of
life
.
{sent}
if
one
looked
at
the
statistics
of
the
public
service
one
would
see
that
women
do
not
earn
the
same
amounts
as
their
male
counterparts
for
performing
,
in
most
cases
,
similar
jobs
.
{sent}
there
is
nothing
in
bill
c-62
which
touches
upon
that
important
problem
.
{sent}
disabled
persons
suffer
from
extraordinarily
high
unemployment
rates
.
{sent}
when
they
are
employed
,
they
tend
to
be
concentrated
in
low
paying
,
marginal
sectors
of
the
labour
market
.
{sent}
i
do
not
like
to
say
this
,
but
it
should
be
noted
that
most
of
the
people
in
the
public
service
of
canada
who
were
hired
under
the
program
to
assist
disabled
people
and
to
encourage
the
hiring
of
disabled
people
were
hired
in
term
positions
.
{sent}
when
the
government
lets
people
go
,
the
first
to
be
let
go
are
usually
term
employees
who
,
in
many
cases
,
are
disabled
people
.
{sent}
i
thought
they
had
acquired
a
right
to
work
in
the
public
service
of
canada
and
were
doing
a
competent
job
for
us
.
{sent}
native
people
experience
a
level
of
unemployment
about
five
times
higher
than
that
of
the
nonnative
population
.
{sent}
when
they
are
employed
,
it
is
usually
in
the
unskilled
sectors
of
the
labour
market
and
they
have
disproportionately
low
incomes
.
{sent}
yesterday
i
referred
to
the
difficulties
which
landed
immigrants
have
in
adapting
to
the
two
official
languages
of
the
country
.
{sent}
we
must
review
our
programs
of
language
training
and
we
must
ask
the
provinces
to
co-operate
.
{sent}
judge
abella
reported
on
this
extensively
.
{sent}
she
said
that
we
must
do
something
to
modernize
the
methods
and
to
make
those
courses
more
acceptable
so
that
new
canadians
will
have
less
difficulty
advancing
in
the
workforce
.
{sent}
in
my
riding
landed
immigrants
frequently
fill
the
lowest
paid
jobs
in
the
lowest
skilled
sectors
.
{sent}
they
are
usually
the
most
vulnerable
because
their
jobs
are
the
first
to
be
abolished
in
tough
times
.
{sent}
from
a
purely
economic
point
,
employment
equity
is
needed
to
ensure
that
human
resources
are
not
wasted
because
of
discriminatory
practices
.
{sent}
a
healthy
economy
needs
the
contributions
of
all
qualified
people
who
are
willing
to
work
and
are
competent
.
{sent}
that
is
the
only
judgment
we
should
make
--
not
whether
they
are
native
,
handicapped
,
disabled
,
or
women
.
{sent}
if
they
are
competent
they
should
be
allowed
to
compete
and
to
obtain
jobs
.
{sent}
the
exclusion
of
women
,
visible
minorities
,
disabled
people
,
and
native
people
from
job
opportunities
and
benefits
can
only
contribute
to
the
high
cost
of
social
service
programs
.
{sent}
in
conclusion
,
we
are
disappointed
with
the
government
's
refusal
to
amend
this
bill
.
{sent}
we
would
like
to
have
had
included
in
the
bill
a
higher
penalty
,
and
have
it
relate
to
the
action
plan
as
well
as
the
reporting
clause
.
{sent}
we
would
like
to
have
seen
the
penalty
at
$
500,000
.
{sent}
we
would
like
to
have
had
the
designated
groups
which
speak
strongly
for
the
disabled
,
the
native
people
,
and
women
's
groups
included
in
this
bill
so
they
would
be
consulted
when
things
need
to
be
improved
.
{sent}
we
would
have
liked
to
have
had
a
better
definition
of
``
reasonable
accommodation
''
.
{sent}
the
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
promised
the
handicapped
people
that
he
would
study
this
issue
personally
.
{sent}
he
did
not
study
it
very
long
or
hard
and
he
did
not
do
a
darn
thing
about
it
.
{sent}
we
would
have
liked
those
things
to
have
been
included
in
the
bill
but
,
unfortunately
,
they
are
not
.
{sent}
the
bill
will
be
accepted
as
it
is
,
but
it
is
a
smoke
and
mirrors
bill
.
{sent}
everyone
in
the
house
accepts
the
principle
of
the
bill
,
but
its
lack
of
teeth
frustrates
us
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa-vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
has
made
a
good
speech
.
{sent}
his
party
formed
the
government
in
1963
under
mr.
lester
pearson
with
168
seats
in
the
house
.
{sent}
it
then
came
to
power
once
again
under
mr.
pierre
trudeau
.
{sent}
my
question
,
therefore
,
is
this
:
why
did
the
liberal
party
do
nothing
in
20
years
to
ensure
employment
equity
in
canada
?
{sent}
a
non-governmental
advisory
council
on
the
status
of
women
was
established
in
1973
.
{sent}
in
1972
,
the
federal
government
endorsed
the
convention
of
the
world
labour
organization
on
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
.
{sent}
the
liberal
government
also
introduced
an
omnibus
bill
to
ensure
equal
status
for
women
in
1975
.
{sent}
in
1976
,
we
gave
passage
to
the
canadian
human
rights
act
,
which
forbids
discrimination
based
on
sex
.
{sent}
afterwards
,
we
also
created
the
abella
commission
because
this
issue
had
to
be
examined
.
{sent}
the
abella
commission
was
therefore
established
in
1983
and
it
presented
its
report
in
1984
.
{sent}
projects
and
programs
were
set
up
.
{sent}
i
am
certainly
not
ashamed
to
say
it
.
{sent}
i
didn't
say
that
.
{sent}
i
didn't
say
i
was
satisfied
.
{sent}
i
merely
said
,
mr.
speaker
,
that
i
am
one
of
those
people
who
believe
that
by
doing
a
lot
more
we
will
get
a
lot
further
in
this
area
and
get
there
faster
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
question
for
my
friend
.
{sent}
i
have
heard
a
number
of
liberals
criticize
this
legislation
as
being
unenforceable
.
{sent}
we
,
too
,
have
made
that
criticism
and
it
is
valid
.
{sent}
however
,
is
this
just
criticism
the
liberals
are
able
to
make
now
that
they
are
in
opposition
,
or
is
their
policy
one
of
enforceable
affirmative
action
?
{sent}
can
the
member
tell
me
the
liberal
party
policy
or
are
they
just
criticizing
and
sitting
on
the
fence
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
know
the
hon.
member
to
be
a
serious
member
and
i
know
why
he
puts
that
question
.
{sent}
i
know
exactly
what
he
is
trying
to
get
at
.
{sent}
i
refer
him
to
the
speeches
and
amendments
we
have
moved
over
the
last
little
while
concerning
how
this
bill
should
be
enforced
.
{sent}
ndp
members
are
good
at
asking
questions
like
that
,
but
it
was
very
interesting
to
read
some
of
the
research
material
concerning
the
ndp
in
manitoba
.
{sent}
in
june
,
1985
,
the
hon.
member
's
province
of
manitoba
passed
bill
53
,
the
pay
equity
act
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
they
also
announced
that
since
the
election
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
that
was
the
only
initiative
in
many
,
many
years
.
{sent}
i
can
point
to
affirmative
action
groups
starting
with
the
handicapped
.
{sent}
i
can
talk
about
women
's
groups
and
francophone
groups
in
my
riding
.
{sent}
i
can
talk
to
you
about
that
for
maybe
an
hour
and
a
half
or
two
hours
.
{sent}
mr.
de
cotret
:
no
,
no
!
{sent}
mr.
blaikie
:
don't
threaten
us
then
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
--
the
best
affirmative
action
program
we
ever
had
was
the
encouragement
of
minority
groups
.
{sent}
one
of
them
i
can
talk
about
is
the
francophones
.
{sent}
i
think
i
will
because
it
is
an
important
question
.
{sent}
the
president
of
the
treasury
board
(
mr.
de
cotret
)
is
here
.
{sent}
this
morning
i
had
a
letter
from
the
collège
st.
boniface
saying
that
the
treasury
board
decision
to
cut
their
funds
for
education
will
have
a
direct
impact
on
their
capacity
to
operate
in
manitoba
.
{sent}
i
could
talk
about
tv
ontario
.
{sent}
that
is
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
the
government
is
hesitant
about
giving
it
the
$
50
million
it
has
been
asking
for
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
where
does
the
liberal
party
stand
on
employment
equity
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
then
there
is
the
question
of
newfoundland
and
access
to
the
courts
.
{sent}
is
there
a
better
affirmative
action
program
than
letting
individuals
go
to
the
courts
and
ask
that
their
rights
be
respected
?
{sent}
is
there
a
better
court
challenges
program
?
{sent}
yes
,
there
is
,
one
that
works
like
the
one
we
had
before
.
{sent}
this
government
has
taken
the
court
challenges
program
,
under
the
minister
of
justice
and
the
secretary
of
state
,
and
has
put
it
--
{sent}
--
on
the
back
burner
,
as
they
say
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
north
centre
(
mr.
keeper
)
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
i
wonder
if
the
hon.
member
would
allow
a
supplementary
question
rather
than
talking
it
out
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
i
am
answering
your
question
.
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
i
want
to
go
on
because
this
is
so
important
.
{sent}
it
is
section
15
that
will
be
tested
in
the
courts
,
so
that
we
will
know
what
it
means
.
{sent}
section
23
will
be
tested
in
the
courts
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
's
question
is
a
good
question
,
mr.
speaker
,
because
it
goes
to
the
heart
of
the
matter
.
{sent}
how
can
the
majority
help
the
minority
to
better
defend
itself
?
{sent}
and
that
is
why
we
have
a
problem
with
access
to
the
courts
financed
by
the
majority
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
mr.
speaker
,
that
was
a
great
oration
by
my
friend
and
i
appreciate
every
word
of
it
.
{sent}
however
,
he
failed
to
say
concretely
and
specifically
where
the
liberal
party
stands
today
regarding
enforceable
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
hear
him
speak
to
that
.
{sent}
i
know
he
is
capable
of
criticizing
the
government
but
is
he
capable
of
enunciating
the
liberal
party
position
,
or
does
it
have
a
position
on
affirmative
action
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
yes
,
sir
,
we
have
a
full
policy
.
{sent}
how
much
time
have
i
got
?
{sent}
we
are
fully
in
accord
with
a
positive
approach
to
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
we
have
proven
that
over
the
years
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
define
``
positive
''
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
it
is
our
policy
to
support
those
who
are
least
able
to
defend
themselves
.
{sent}
if
the
hon.
member
wants
to
know
exactly
what
the
liberal
party
thinks
about
a
specific
program
i
am
willing
to
talk
to
him
about
that
.
{sent}
is
he
talking
about
women
?
{sent}
i
think
our
record
shows
we
have
acted
in
a
positive
manner
on
affirmative
action
for
women
.
{sent}
is
he
talking
about
the
handicapped
?
{sent}
i
can
repeat
what
i
said
a
few
minutes
ago
.
{sent}
we
had
several
programs
.
{sent}
in
my
riding
the
co-op
movement
,
which
is
a
good
movement
,
put
up
housing
for
the
handicapped
under
a
pilot
project
.
{sent}
that
was
10
or
15
years
ago
.
{sent}
mr.
keeper
:
what
about
today
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
is
he
asking
about
native
people
?
{sent}
i
was
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
minister
of
state
for
urban
affairs
in
1976-77
.
{sent}
i
went
around
this
country
looking
at
native
housing
and
saw
how
badly
housed
the
native
people
were
.
{sent}
i
could
see
how
hard
we
should
try
to
give
them
what
they
wanted
,
affordable
and
decent
housing
.
{sent}
we
did
that
with
several
programs
.
{sent}
i
can
refer
the
hon.
member
to
the
rrap
program
,
a
sweat
equity
program
which
got
an
awful
lot
of
people
doing
for
themselves
what
should
be
done
.
{sent}
sweat
equity
is
what
you
contribute
to
the
construction
of
your
own
house
.
{sent}
we
calculated
that
amount
as
part
of
the
mortgage
.
{sent}
that
program
,
plus
the
neighbourhood
improvement
program
,
along
with
all
kinds
of
other
programs
--
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
chip
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
the
chip
program
is
dead
.
{sent}
the
conservatives
killed
a
good
program
.
{sent}
i
am
speaking
about
affordable
accommodation
for
those
with
low
incomes
,
for
example
.
{sent}
in
my
riding
we
built
more
social
housing
in
15
years
than
anybody
else
did
in
the
ottawa
area
.
{sent}
i
am
very
proud
of
that
.
{sent}
i
have
got
a
good
housing
stock
which
we
worked
very
hard
at
,
and
it
was
mainly
directed
at
ottawa-vanier
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
what
about
the
rest
of
ottawa
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
the
rest
of
ottawa
does
not
need
it
because
they
are
so
rich
.
{sent}
i
represent
the
poorest
part
of
ottawa
,
and
the
oldest
too
,
but
i
am
very
proud
of
that
.
{sent}
in
lower
town
,
overbrook
,
vanier
,
and
all
those
areas
,
that
part
that
was
the
original
ottawa
,
was
poor
.
{sent}
it
needed
assistance
and
we
went
out
there
and
gave
it
to
them
,
and
we
did
support
them
in
their
housing
.
{sent}
thank
you
.
{sent}
message
from
the
senate
{sent}
the
royal
assent
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
i
have
the
honour
to
inform
the
house
that
a
communication
has
been
received
which
is
as
follows
:
{sent}
sir
,
{sent}
yours
sincerely
,
le
leopold
h.
amyot
,
le
secretary
to
the
governor
general
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
resuming
debate
,
the
hon.
member
for
winnipeg
--
birds
hill
(
mr.
blaikie
)
.
{sent}
it
is
also
fair
,
i
suppose
,
to
note
that
many
of
these
issues
are
issues
which
evolve
over
time
,
and
that
governments
respond
to
the
degree
of
social
consensus
that
develops
around
issues
.
{sent}
long
before
1984
the
consensus
had
been
created
that
it
was
time
for
real
employment
equity
in
this
country
,
and
real
affirmative
action
.
{sent}
we
went
so
far
not
so
long
ago
as
to
enshrine
in
our
constitution
a
reference
to
affirmative
action
,
which
highlighted
that
as
a
mechanism
for
bringing
about
greater
equality
in
this
country
.
{sent}
in
august
,
1984
the
then
leader
of
the
opposition
and
now
prime
minister
(
mr.
mulroney
)
said
,
and
i
quote
:
{sent}
our
party
will
ensure
that
companies
providing
services
to
the
federal
government
hire
increasing
numbers
of
women
to
perform
such
services
.
{sent}
that
was
offered
to
the
canadian
public
by
our
current
prime
minister
when
he
was
running
for
office
in
1984
.
{sent}
the
result
of
that
rhetoric
,
which
was
part
of
an
over-all
and
considerably
transparent
election
tragedy
,
was
to
promise
everything
to
everybody
.
{sent}
the
conservatives
in
1984
were
going
for
broke
.
{sent}
they
were
not
going
to
offend
anybody
.
{sent}
if
you
did
not
want
to
test
the
cruise
missile
,
neither
did
they
.
{sent}
if
you
wanted
to
test
the
cruise
missile
,
so
did
they
.
{sent}
it
did
not
matter
what
your
position
was
you
could
find
a
tory
who
would
respond
positively
to
your
feelings
and
to
your
concerns
.
{sent}
there
was
an
expectation
with
respect
to
this
issue
that
the
government
would
live
up
to
its
promises
in
this
regard
,
an
expectation
that
has
been
sorely
violated
by
the
reality
of
the
legislation
that
we
have
before
us
.
{sent}
we
can
quote
now
from
beryl
potter
of
the
coalition
on
employment
equity
for
persons
with
disabilities
the
following
statement
:
{sent}
like
the
bill
--
it
's
not
even
worth
the
paper
it
's
written
on
--
i
've
never
been
so
disillusioned
in
my
life
as
i
am
with
prime
minister
mulroney
.
{sent}
i
was
a
supporter
of
him
.
{sent}
i
worked
for
him
in
his
campaign
and
i
am
totally
,
totally
disillusioned
.
{sent}
it
is
not
as
if
the
conservative
party
was
being
asked
to
do
something
terribly
radical
.
{sent}
i
feel
,
as
i
think
others
feel
,
that
for
some
time
we
have
been
at
a
point
in
our
social
and
political
thinking
where
governments
could
afford
to
move
on
this
without
any
great
danger
to
themselves
.
{sent}
in
the
final
analysis
,
i
believe
the
progressive
conservative
party
was
true
to
its
own
principles
.
{sent}
a
proper
democratic
debate
could
then
have
occurred
.
{sent}
however
,
that
debate
has
not
taken
place
because
the
progressive
conservative
party
decided
in
1984
that
it
would
not
have
any
real
debate
.
{sent}
the
conservatives
were
going
to
keep
their
cards
close
to
their
chests
and
would
indicate
to
the
public
only
that
which
it
wanted
it
to
know
.
{sent}
we
have
discovered
that
the
conservatives
did
not
mean
what
they
were
saying
,
that
our
criticisms
of
the
conservatives
over
the
years
have
been
correct
.
{sent}
the
fact
is
that
the
conservative
party
is
not
capable
of
acting
against
the
wishes
of
the
business
community
in
this
country
.
{sent}
clearly
,
that
is
the
rationale
behind
the
weakness
of
the
legislation
before
us
today
.
{sent}
that
unwillingness
is
evident
in
other
areas
as
well
.
{sent}
that
is
a
clear
example
of
how
the
market-place
is
not
serving
ordinary
canadians
and
their
community
organizations
,
particularly
those
smaller
local
organizations
.
{sent}
this
has
not
happened
as
a
result
of
an
international
communist
conspiracy
.
{sent}
while
those
hon.
members
quite
correctly
point
out
that
something
should
be
done
,
they
do
not
point
out
that
it
is
the
fault
of
a
particular
system
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
a
good
example
of
a
general
philosophy
not
to
interfere
in
the
market-place
.
{sent}
for
example
,
the
minister
of
energy
,
mines
and
resources
(
miss
carney
)
had
an
incredible
trust
in
the
oil
industry
which
i
do
not
believe
has
been
matched
by
action
.
{sent}
she
assumed
that
as
world
oil
prices
decreased
there
would
be
a
corresponding
,
complementary
and
timely
reduction
in
energy
prices
at
the
pumps
.
{sent}
miss
carney
:
that
is
occurring
.
{sent}
another
example
concerns
the
recent
decision
of
the
minister
of
state
for
finance
(
mrs.
mcdougall
)
about
the
imasco
takeover
.
{sent}
despite
many
of
the
ramifications
of
this
takeover
,
the
government
believes
that
by
asking
the
company
not
to
take
certain
action
there
will
be
no
problem
.
{sent}
similarly
,
it
believes
that
by
asking
employers
to
do
certain
things
through
this
bill
there
will
be
no
problems
.
{sent}
however
,
if
the
companies
do
not
meet
certain
requirements
of
this
employment
equity
bill
there
is
a
$
50,000
fine
in
some
cases
.
{sent}
big
deal
!
{sent}
it
is
quite
clear
that
many
of
the
companies
we
are
concerned
with
are
wealthy
enough
to
regard
$
50,000
as
simply
the
cost
of
doing
business
.
{sent}
employment
equity
is
being
dealt
with
in
much
the
same
way
as
the
financial
institutions
,
the
oil
industry
and
the
insurance
industry
.
{sent}
furthermore
,
the
liberals
have
had
much
the
same
philosophy
.
{sent}
we
were
told
for
years
not
to
worry
about
the
environment
.
{sent}
we
would
be
told
that
the
minister
of
the
environment
had
talked
to
the
industries
involved
,
who
volunteered
to
monitor
themselves
to
ensure
that
they
would
not
do
anything
wrong
.
{sent}
we
have
seen
this
incredible
naivety
over
and
over
again
about
how
these
institutions
will
behave
when
it
comes
to
their
own
self-interest
.
{sent}
the
government
has
not
been
willing
to
do
that
.
{sent}
that
is
why
this
bill
has
been
so
ridiculed
by
the
very
people
who
had
such
high
expectations
for
it
.
{sent}
mr.
roland
de
corneille
(
eglinton
--
lawrence
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
pleased
to
continue
debate
on
third
reading
of
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
we
have
been
trying
as
hard
as
we
can
to
make
this
a
meaningful
bill
that
would
fulfil
the
hopes
and
aspirations
and
needs
of
the
people
it
is
supposed
to
serve
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
suppose
to
meet
the
needs
and
concerns
of
women
,
native
people
,
the
disabled
and
handicapped
and
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
there
are
certain
tory
partisans
who
have
recently
lamented
the
determined
stand
taken
by
the
opposition
to
get
bill
c-62
amended
so
we
can
achieve
its
alleged
purposes
.
{sent}
these
partisan
tories
complain
because
members
of
the
opposition
care
about
the
plight
of
their
fellow
man
.
{sent}
they
lament
the
fact
that
we
are
making
an
effort
here
in
the
house
to
convince
the
government
to
do
something
to
improve
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
i
am
proud
to
rise
as
often
as
i
can
to
plead
the
case
of
those
groups
.
{sent}
i
am
proud
that
in
this
house
of
commons
we
can
call
to
the
attention
of
the
government
the
plight
of
those
groups
to
whom
it
made
promises
.
{sent}
over
half
of
our
population
are
women
.
{sent}
we
have
a
large
number
of
native
people
.
{sent}
the
handicapped
and
disabled
represent
approximately
one
eighth
of
the
population
.
{sent}
estimates
from
statistics
canada
tell
us
that
one
in
every
eight
canadians
is
disabled
.
{sent}
all
of
those
who
belong
to
minority
groups
,
especially
the
visible
minorities
,
are
worth
talking
about
.
{sent}
a
very
large
part
of
our
population
seeks
protection
.
{sent}
therefore
,
the
time
we
spend
on
this
bill
is
not
wasted
if
we
can
somehow
persuade
the
government
that
there
is
much
it
can
do
to
improve
the
bill
.
{sent}
those
are
the
alleged
objectives
of
this
bill
.
{sent}
those
partisan
members
of
parliament
who
criticize
our
efforts
to
try
to
have
the
bill
achieve
its
purpose
betray
their
lack
of
genuine
human
compassion
for
those
groups
who
wait
for
some
move
forward
.
{sent}
i
suggest
that
these
critics
should
perhaps
ponder
the
words
of
the
great
british
poet
,
john
donne
who
many
centuries
ago
wrote
words
which
ought
to
remind
us
of
the
importance
of
compassion
.
{sent}
john
donne
was
also
the
dean
of
st.
paul
's
cathedral
in
england
.
{sent}
he
said
,
and
i
quote
:
{sent}
it
is
a
basic
premise
of
our
culture
and
underlying
civilization
that
we
are
concerned
about
the
plight
of
our
fellow
man
.
{sent}
there
is
not
one
person
in
the
house
of
commons
who
can
be
sure
that
he
or
she
will
not
tomorrow
be
part
of
one
of
those
groups
,
if
they
are
not
already
.
{sent}
certainly
not
one
single
hon.
member
,
male
or
female
,
can
negate
the
possibility
that
he
or
she
may
be
struck
down
in
such
a
way
that
there
would
be
limitations
,
handicaps
or
disabilities
.
{sent}
no
one
is
exempt
.
{sent}
everyone
in
this
country
can
be
protected
and
must
be
protected
by
law
but
this
law
does
not
protect
them
.
{sent}
everyone
is
a
potential
victim
and
needs
this
kind
of
protection
.
{sent}
no
one
is
an
island
unto
himself
and
no
one
should
feel
exempt
from
the
strictures
of
this
concern
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
one
important
group
,
the
disabled
and
handicapped
.
{sent}
let
us
look
at
those
people
who
have
skills
,
who
can
work
and
who
want
to
work
but
who
cannot
work
because
they
cannot
get
work
because
their
disabilities
are
viewed
as
being
too
grave
.
{sent}
and
who
makes
that
arbitrary
decision
?
{sent}
it
is
the
arbitrary
opinion
of
those
who
interview
these
disabled
and
those
who
do
not
even
give
them
the
opportunity
to
be
interviewed
.
{sent}
at
the
present
time
those
people
who
are
disabled
have
to
live
with
the
arbitrary
opinion
of
an
employer
as
to
whether
or
not
they
can
fit
into
the
company
's
plans
.
{sent}
we
look
in
vain
in
clause
2
for
any
definition
of
what
constitutes
a
disabled
or
handicapped
person
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
faulted
.
{sent}
does
this
clause
mean
that
the
employer
has
only
to
make
sure
that
a
certain
percentage
of
disabled
persons
--
which
is
set
by
the
employer
himself
--
must
be
hired
?
{sent}
the
employer
can
decide
what
constitutes
disability
.
{sent}
is
that
a
sprained
arm
,
a
disability
which
is
mild
or
is
it
a
serious
disability
?
{sent}
the
disabled
came
here
to
find
the
answer
.
{sent}
they
came
to
the
committee
which
discussed
this
bill
and
tried
to
explain
that
it
was
important
for
some
kind
of
idea
to
be
given
of
what
is
intended
.
{sent}
more
importantly
,
they
wanted
to
know
what
is
meant
by
the
words
``
reasonable
accommodation
''
.
{sent}
the
bill
says
that
designated
groups
will
be
able
to
have
reasonable
accommodation
.
{sent}
that
is
the
goal
.
{sent}
we
agree
that
one
cannot
set
forth
everything
of
what
might
be
meant
by
``
reasonable
accommodation
''
as
interpreted
by
various
companies
which
might
be
involved
.
{sent}
pathetically
,
of
course
,
there
are
not
very
many
companies
which
might
be
involved
in
this
legislation
in
any
case
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
a
sham
.
{sent}
the
handicapped
groups
have
asked
for
some
kind
of
definition
of
reasonable
accommodation
in
the
legislation
.
{sent}
an
amendment
was
proposed
with
a
definition
so
that
employers
would
understand
what
the
government
meant
by
this
legislation
.
{sent}
we
asked
the
government
to
include
this
proposal
in
the
legislation
at
the
request
of
all
the
groups
representing
handicapped
people
.
{sent}
we
proposed
it
in
committee
and
we
again
proposed
it
here
in
the
house
.
{sent}
both
times
the
government
rejected
such
a
simple
definition
or
guideline
that
would
give
employers
the
understanding
of
what
this
legislation
is
suppsoed
to
be
trying
to
achieve
.
{sent}
the
failure
of
the
bill
to
give
any
examples
,
never
mind
guidelines
,
of
what
is
meant
by
reasonable
accommodation
is
a
grave
flaw
in
the
bill
.
{sent}
one
must
therefore
conclude
that
there
is
a
lack
of
seriousness
and
sincerity
in
the
government
's
attempt
to
come
up
with
legislation
that
will
be
effective
.
{sent}
what
will
happen
if
this
bill
is
passed
?
{sent}
look
at
it
from
the
point
of
view
of
someone
who
is
handicapped
.
{sent}
the
handicapped
no
longer
want
to
wait
.
{sent}
this
tempting
carrot
has
been
put
in
front
of
them
.
{sent}
they
hope
that
we
will
at
last
bring
about
legislation
that
cares
about
them
and
responds
to
their
needs
.
{sent}
however
,
they
ask
how
they
will
know
that
they
will
be
able
at
last
to
get
jobs
.
{sent}
what
do
the
handicapped
find
that
this
legislation
will
do
for
them
?
{sent}
clause
4
indicates
that
the
employer
is
supposed
to
eliminate
barriers
to
employment
or
promotion
for
the
handicapped
.
{sent}
as
well
,
the
employers
are
supposed
to
institute
policies
and
practices
to
ensure
that
persons
in
the
various
categories
will
be
able
to
have
something
done
for
them
.
{sent}
that
employers
are
now
supposed
to
do
that
according
to
law
does
not
change
a
thing
because
they
are
already
supposed
to
do
that
.
{sent}
we
do
not
need
to
pass
a
law
to
say
that
there
shall
be
equality
for
all
in
this
country
because
,
according
to
our
human
rights
legislation
,
that
is
how
it
stands
now
.
{sent}
it
tells
companies
that
they
are
supposed
to
treat
people
equally
.
{sent}
my
heavens
,
that
is
what
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
already
tells
employers
.
{sent}
it
already
tells
every
employer
in
the
country
,
never
mind
the
few
to
which
this
bill
refers
,
that
they
are
supposed
to
treat
people
equally
.
{sent}
this
bill
again
tells
them
the
same
thing
.
{sent}
how
does
that
help
the
people
who
are
disabled
and
handicapped
?
{sent}
the
bill
is
telling
employers
what
they
already
know
.
{sent}
the
proof
that
this
bill
does
not
work
is
that
nothing
is
happening
to
change
systemic
discrimination
against
handicapped
people
.
{sent}
that
is
what
judge
abella
said
in
her
report
and
that
is
why
she
said
that
something
must
be
done
to
eliminate
systemic
discrimination
against
,
for
example
,
the
one-eighth
of
the
population
who
are
handicapped
or
disabled
.
{sent}
if
it
were
the
case
that
all
the
government
need
do
is
pass
a
bill
with
no
teeth
in
it
and
everything
would
be
all
right
,
then
why
does
the
government
not
behave
that
way
itself
?
{sent}
now
with
the
tory
government
cut-backs
,
the
government
will
be
even
more
prone
to
put
the
handicapped
in
limited
and
term
positions
.
{sent}
what
hope
is
there
that
the
government
will
make
this
law
any
more
effective
than
the
government
's
present
policies
for
the
handicapped
?
{sent}
if
its
present
policies
do
not
serve
the
handicapped
and
the
disabled
,
then
how
can
they
count
on
this
law
which
has
no
teeth
in
it
to
serve
them
any
better
?
{sent}
i
wish
i
could
proceed
with
this
discussion
because
there
are
other
points
about
clauses
5
and
6
which
also
indicate
that
this
legislation
lacks
teeth
.
{sent}
before
i
close
,
i
wish
to
mention
that
the
only
provision
for
which
a
penalty
is
attached
under
this
bill
is
the
provision
that
an
employer
file
a
report
.
{sent}
an
employer
can
report
anything
,
as
long
as
he
files
a
report
he
is
okay
.
{sent}
he
will
be
subject
to
a
penalty
only
if
he
does
not
file
a
report
.
{sent}
what
is
the
leverage
of
this
fine
?
{sent}
why
has
the
government
brought
this
legislation
forward
?
{sent}
it
has
brought
it
forward
in
order
to
make
people
think
that
it
is
doing
something
about
employment
equity
.
{sent}
it
has
brought
it
forward
to
fulfil
a
symbolic
gesture
,
all
the
while
knowing
that
the
corporate
sector
will
know
that
it
is
a
toothless
and
absolutely
meaningless
exercise
.
{sent}
it
is
nothing
but
an
exercise
on
the
part
of
the
tories
in
political
cynicism
and
hypocrisy
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
question
for
my
friend
in
the
liberal
party
.
{sent}
i
have
before
me
a
copy
of
the
study
of
the
economic
council
of
canada
entitled
``
women
reentering
the
labour
force
and
training
programs
,
evidence
from
canada
''
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
made
a
very
progressive
speech
;
it
called
for
various
changes
.
{sent}
i
should
like
to
quote
from
the
report
wherein
the
following
is
indicated
at
page
43
:
{sent}
they
are
under-represented
in
the
industrial
training
program
(
in
proportion
to
their
presence
in
the
labour
force
)
,
and
they
train
in
predominantly
female
occupations
.
{sent}
further
on
the
same
page
,
the
following
is
indicated
:
{sent}
eic
should
designate
target
occupations
for
training
women
and
should
develop
training
programs
for
women
in
these
occupations
jointly
with
employers
.
{sent}
the
target
occupations
should
be
occupations
where
there
is
a
strong
demand
for
qualified
workers
;
these
occupations
might
be
drawn
from
the
ctst
and
the
oni
.
{sent}
the
report
really
condemns
many
of
the
programs
of
the
past
in
terms
of
them
not
really
being
fair
to
women
,
discriminating
against
women
and
not
steering
women
into
non-traditional
occupations
.
{sent}
why
was
the
liberal
party
,
which
was
in
power
over
20
years
,
so
lax
at
trying
to
open
up
new
job
opportunities
for
women
?
{sent}
why
did
this
discrimination
continue
for
so
many
years
despite
the
fact
that
the
liberal
party
was
in
power
?
{sent}
why
was
the
liberal
party
so
late
in
realizing
that
women
were
discriminated
against
?
{sent}
why
did
the
liberal
party
not
do
something
about
it
when
it
was
in
power
?
{sent}
i
think
the
report
is
a
good
one
in
that
it
condemns
the
lack
of
liberal
action
over
20
years
in
terms
of
being
fair
to
women
.
{sent}
what
does
the
hon.
member
have
to
say
about
that
?
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
do
not
want
to
appear
in
any
way
as
simply
trying
to
be
defensive
by
saying
that
everything
the
liberals
have
done
in
this
regard
was
perfect
or
rosy
.
{sent}
i
ask
the
hon.
member
not
to
assume
that
that
is
what
i
am
trying
to
say
.
{sent}
on
the
other
hand
,
it
would
behove
my
hon.
friend
to
listen
to
the
comments
about
and
the
examples
of
the
impressive
liberal
record
over
the
years
which
were
made
earlier
.
{sent}
if
he
had
listened
to
that
review
,
he
would
have
learned
that
it
was
impressive
.
{sent}
however
,
i
am
trying
to
point
out
that
we
have
made
a
logical
progression
in
terms
of
the
steps
we
have
taken
.
{sent}
it
would
be
better
if
the
hon.
member
,
with
only
30
members
in
his
caucus
,
would
concentrate
on
what
the
conservative
government
is
doing
and
on
its
responsibilities
.
{sent}
it
would
be
a
good
idea
for
him
to
attempt
to
get
the
government
to
improve
the
legislation
.
{sent}
however
,
if
he
wants
to
spend
his
time
taking
shots
at
the
liberal
party
,
he
can
do
so
,
if
that
is
spending
his
time
in
the
best
way
.
{sent}
from
my
point
of
view
he
would
be
better
advised
to
try
to
persuade
the
government
to
improve
this
particular
piece
of
legislation
for
the
sake
of
the
people
who
need
this
help
.
{sent}
i
do
not
know
whether
he
has
done
that
in
his
question
or
comment
.
{sent}
in
any
case
,
i
am
pleased
that
his
party
agrees
with
the
official
opposition
that
the
legislation
is
not
adequate
and
does
not
meet
the
alleged
goals
which
it
seeks
to
achieve
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
have
a
general
question
because
i
have
a
lot
of
respect
for
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
he
is
an
ordained
minister
of
the
church
as
well
.
{sent}
could
he
comment
upon
whether
or
not
other
organizations
are
doing
enough
to
promote
equity
among
different
groups
?
{sent}
for
example
,
i
have
often
said
that
farm
organizations
should
involve
more
women
in
their
operations
.
{sent}
personally
i
am
very
happy
,
for
example
,
that
the
next
president
of
the
canadian
labour
congress
will
almost
certainly
be
shirley
carr
.
{sent}
these
are
steps
in
the
right
direction
.
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
the
hon.
member
for
western
arctic
(
mr.
nickerson
)
directed
a
similar
question
to
me
yesterday
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
i
was
not
here
.
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
i
think
the
hon.
member
's
question
is
a
justified
one
.
{sent}
i
think
that
can
be
said
by
anyone
of
any
faith
and
should
be
continually
emphasized
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
is
right
in
indicating
that
it
is
not
enough
to
say
:
``
do
as
i
say
but
not
as
i
do
''
.
{sent}
if
the
hon.
member
is
suggesting
that
there
is
hypocrisy
involved
in
every
group
,
i
agree
with
him
.
{sent}
we
in
the
liberal
party
are
proud
of
the
fact
that
our
president
is
the
hon.
iona
campagnolo
.
{sent}
however
,
when
we
look
at
the
number
of
members
of
parliament
sitting
in
the
house
,
we
are
unhappy
that
we
do
not
have
more
women
who
are
members
of
parliament
.
{sent}
everyone
has
a
responsibility
.
{sent}
in
terms
of
our
own
home
life
,
we
should
re-examine
our
attitudes
toward
women
,
native
people
,
and
the
handicapped
.
{sent}
certainly
it
is
a
responsibility
of
the
church
.
{sent}
i
believe
the
hon.
member
's
question
concerned
the
anglican
church
.
{sent}
the
anglican
church
should
forthwith
approve
the
consecration
of
women
as
bishops
.
{sent}
it
has
decided
to
ordain
women
as
priests
,
which
is
a
logical
step
.
{sent}
the
government
should
move
as
quickly
as
possible
to
make
meaningful
the
policy
of
eliminating
systemic
discrimination
as
the
bill
is
supposed
to
do
.
{sent}
however
,
i
fear
--
and
i
am
sure
the
hon.
member
would
agree
--
that
this
is
not
happening
.
{sent}
mr.
nystrom
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
glad
to
hear
the
hon.
member
say
what
he
said
,
and
i
should
like
to
ask
him
a
question
which
might
be
quite
radical
for
this
institution
dominated
by
males
.
{sent}
he
mentioned
that
there
were
very
few
women
in
the
house
of
commons
.
{sent}
all
three
political
parties
at
the
federal
level
,
and
certainly
at
the
provincial
level
in
different
sections
,
have
parity
clauses
in
their
constitutions
vis-à-vis
gender
.
{sent}
often
half
the
delegates
must
be
female
.
{sent}
for
example
,
half
the
delegates
to
national
or
provincial
council
meetings
must
be
female
.
{sent}
we
have
seen
that
practice
internally
within
our
parties
.
{sent}
would
it
be
too
radical
to
suggest
that
perhaps
we
should
have
legislation
wherein
half
the
members
of
the
house
must
be
women
?
{sent}
in
other
words
,
there
could
be
dual
ridings
,
approximately
180
such
ridings
.
{sent}
each
riding
would
elect
two
members
,
one
of
whom
must
be
a
woman
.
{sent}
would
the
hon.
member
agree
with
that
proposal
?
{sent}
after
all
,
all
three
political
parties
are
moving
in
that
direction
internally
.
{sent}
is
it
too
radical
a
suggestion
in
terms
of
this
very
staid
and
conservative
institution
?
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
it
is
a
proposal
which
i
have
heard
proferred
by
other
people
.
{sent}
having
given
thought
to
the
matter
,
it
seems
that
the
principles
involved
in
this
piece
of
legislation
would
indicate
that
finally
we
are
dealing
with
the
fact
that
people
must
have
merit
to
be
given
jobs
.
{sent}
i
think
the
same
applies
to
the
electorate
.
{sent}
if
the
electorate
deems
there
are
certain
people
it
wants
to
elect
,
then
whether
they
are
male
or
female
is
not
the
issue
.
{sent}
the
issue
is
the
quota
.
{sent}
i
think
we
can
discuss
this
further
perhaps
privately
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
conclude
on
this
note
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
the
need
,
if
you
will
,
for
an
effort
to
recruit
women
is
something
which
is
very
much
in
the
minds
of
political
parties
,
at
least
it
should
be
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
resuming
debate
.
{sent}
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
the
question
is
as
follows
:
miss
macdonald
,
seconded
by
mr.
hnatyshyn
--
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
would
like
to
speak
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
very
well
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
york
west
(
mr.
marchi
)
on
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
blaikie
:
the
question
has
been
put
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
you
can't
.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
is
there
some
problem
with
members
on
the
government
benches
?
{sent}
does
someone
want
to
speak
ahead
of
me
?
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
order
,
please
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
to
the
president
of
the
privy
council
(
mr.
lewis
)
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
mr.
speaker
,
we
have
no
wish
to
cut
off
this
debate
.
{sent}
this
matter
has
been
before
the
house
and
committee
for
some
time
.
{sent}
all
those
who
wanted
to
be
here
were
here
ready
to
debate
.
{sent}
i
believe
,
sir
,
that
you
called
the
question
.
{sent}
if
the
opposition
wishes
to
filibuster
this
debate
,
it
may
.
{sent}
i
believe
that
you
called
the
question
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
know
whether
that
was
the
position
of
the
chair
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
.
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
on
the
same
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
an
hon.
member
:
who
was
recognized
?
{sent}
mr.
gauthier
:
indeed
,
he
was
given
the
floor
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
both
member
are
correct
.
{sent}
the
parliamentary
secretary
is
correct
when
he
said
that
the
question
was
called
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
for
ottawa
--
vanier
(
mr.
gauthier
)
says
that
the
question
was
not
put
.
{sent}
the
question
was
not
put
.
{sent}
therefore
,
the
hon.
member
has
the
floor
for
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
sergio
marchi
(
york
west
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
am
somewhat
surprised
that
government
members
would
have
such
an
objection
to
listen
to
further
debate
.
{sent}
mr.
lewis
:
you
were
surprised
in
the
lobby
.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
yes
,
i
was
in
the
lobby
.
{sent}
yes
,
i
had
an
interest
and
that
interest
is
genuine
,
and
that
is
why
i
am
on
my
feet
right
now
.
{sent}
i
would
like
to
participate
in
this
debate
once
again
.
{sent}
several
days
ago
i
said
that
the
debate
and
the
process
were
frustrating
.
{sent}
we
have
seen
,
particularly
at
committee
stage
,
group
after
group
after
group
of
women
,
the
disabled
,
native
people
and
people
representing
the
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
they
came
before
the
committee
and
stressed
the
need
to
improve
and
strengthen
bill
c-62
.
{sent}
we
saw
participation
at
second
reading
once
it
was
known
across
the
country
what
bill
c-62
contained
and
,
more
important
,
what
bill
c-62
did
not
contain
.
{sent}
the
four
target
groups
,
the
four
community-based
action
groups
,
did
not
come
before
us
simply
as
a
one-time
wonder
.
{sent}
very
many
of
these
same
organizations
came
before
this
parliament
and
this
house
of
commons
during
the
constitutional
debate
when
we
were
discussing
the
charter
of
rights
and
freedoms
.
{sent}
they
came
before
the
abella
commission
,
which
set
out
very
courageously
and
progressively
,
i
might
add
,
a
vision
for
canadians
in
terms
of
equal
opportunity
in
the
workplace
.
{sent}
in
each
and
every
single
case
they
came
at
great
expense
,
great
energy
and
effort
to
articulate
to
their
leadership
at
the
federal
level
,
to
you
and
me
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
they
told
us
what
it
meant
for
them
to
be
discriminated
against
either
on
the
basis
of
sex
,
handicap
or
the
colour
of
their
skin
.
{sent}
they
tried
to
articulate
in
a
very
sensitive
and
effective
manner
what
it
was
they
needed
from
this
house
in
terms
of
legislation
and
leadership
for
them
to
be
freed
from
this
type
of
bondage
.
{sent}
as
members
of
parliament
we
have
dealt
and
continue
to
deal
in
this
house
with
these
frustrations
.
{sent}
people
continuously
seek
the
advice
and
assistance
of
members
of
parliament
to
help
them
find
employment
.
{sent}
these
are
people
who
have
been
in
the
unemployment
lines
for
days
,
months
and
,
in
some
cases
,
years
.
{sent}
somehow
having
a
job
fulfils
one
's
goals
and
aspirations
,
keeps
families
intact
and
families
on
the
go
.
{sent}
these
people
are
canadians
.
{sent}
they
deserve
an
equal
opportunity
.
{sent}
they
deserve
an
equal
slice
of
the
canadian
pie
.
{sent}
that
is
not
good
enough
.
{sent}
look
what
we
have
done
for
the
visible
minority
canadians
in
this
country
''
'
.
{sent}
they
do
not
want
to
be
hoodwinked
and
,
more
important
,
they
do
not
want
other
canadians
to
be
hoodwinked
into
believing
that
the
lot
of
these
canadians
is
being
improved
,
because
it
is
not
.
{sent}
member
organizations
within
these
four
target
groups
have
said
very
clearly
to
parliament
that
they
would
rather
have
no
bill
than
have
bill
c-62
in
its
present
form
.
{sent}
they
are
frustrated
after
having
stated
their
position
to
the
government
year
after
year
,
through
report
after
report
,
and
seeing
no
action
.
{sent}
if
bill
c-62
contained
some
decency
and
some
movement
on
their
complaints
,
recommendations
,
and
representations
to
the
committee
,
they
would
have
been
pleased
.
{sent}
they
would
have
accepted
that
as
a
first
step
.
{sent}
however
,
there
has
been
no
movement
.
{sent}
there
has
only
been
talk
and
rhetoric
.
{sent}
that
is
why
they
are
displeased
.
{sent}
everyone
in
the
house
believes
in
equal
opportunity
.
{sent}
we
should
not
accept
a
piece
of
legislation
which
does
not
do
that
which
it
purports
to
do
.
{sent}
rather
than
do
that
,
we
should
transcend
party
politics
and
work
hard
to
deliver
a
piece
of
legislation
which
will
do
what
it
is
intended
to
do
.
{sent}
my
colleagues
and
i
do
not
stand
in
our
places
to
oppose
simply
for
the
sake
of
opposing
,
and
not
simply
to
debate
until
six
o'clock
.
{sent}
we
are
taking
a
position
of
principle
.
{sent}
for
years
members
of
these
four
target
groups
have
been
telling
the
government
what
they
want
.
{sent}
at
the
eleventh
hour
we
at
least
wish
to
take
the
opportunity
to
articulate
those
concerns
.
{sent}
bill
c-62
is
simply
not
good
enough
,
and
the
four
target
groups
do
not
wish
to
accept
it
.
{sent}
we
have
done
more
than
simply
talk
.
{sent}
through
our
critic
we
moved
36
amendments
which
would
have
given
bill
c-62
strength
and
effectiveness
.
{sent}
we
recommended
that
the
committee
and
the
government
accept
these
amendments
in
order
to
demonstrate
decency
and
moral
integrity
.
{sent}
one
would
have
expected
that
one
,
two
,
or
three
of
those
amendments
would
have
been
accepted
in
good
parliamentary
faith
.
{sent}
however
,
none
of
them
were
accepted
.
{sent}
the
amendments
which
we
proposed
came
from
the
four
target
groups
.
{sent}
for
whose
benefit
is
this
legislation
being
put
forward
?
{sent}
is
it
for
members
of
the
house
or
for
the
viewing
audience
?
{sent}
of
course
not
.
{sent}
if
our
purpose
is
to
create
equality
in
the
country
for
the
four
target
groups
and
those
groups
are
not
satisfied
with
this
legislation
,
why
is
the
government
prepared
to
proceed
with
it
?
{sent}
why
is
the
government
so
anxious
to
have
this
legislation
passed
?
{sent}
why
has
the
government
censured
every
member
of
this
party
who
has
spoken
on
bill
c-62
?
{sent}
we
are
not
out
of
order
.
{sent}
we
make
no
apologies
for
debating
this
issue
in
the
house
.
{sent}
we
do
not
apologize
because
we
are
trying
to
be
the
lightning
rod
between
the
four
target
groups
and
the
federal
government
.
{sent}
we
will
not
apologize
today
or
tomorrow
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
i
regret
to
interrupt
the
hon.
member
.
{sent}
we
will
proceed
with
royal
assent
after
which
the
hon.
member
may
complete
his
speech
.
{sent}
royal
assent
{sent}
the
royal
assent
{sent}
a
message
was
delivered
by
the
gentleman
usher
of
the
black
rod
as
follows
:
{sent}
mr.
speaker
,
the
honourable
deputy
to
the
governor
general
desires
the
immediate
attendance
of
this
honourable
house
in
the
chamber
of
the
honourable
the
senate
.
{sent}
accordingly
,
mr.
deputy
speaker
with
the
house
went
up
to
the
senate
chamber
.
{sent}
and
being
returned
:
{sent}
bill
c-99
,
an
act
to
provide
borrowing
authority
--
chapter
no.
19
.
{sent}
-
employment
equity
{sent}
government
orders
{sent}
employment
equity
act
{sent}
measure
to
enact
{sent}
we
thought
the
government
should
include
an
enforcement
mechanism
in
this
legislation
.
{sent}
we
feel
that
the
human
rights
commission
,
as
it
stands
,
does
not
have
the
resources
or
mandate
to
be
the
enforcement
agency
.
{sent}
the
commission
is
a
reactive
rather
than
proactive
mechanism
.
{sent}
it
also
operates
on
a
one-to-one
basis
rather
than
in
the
comprehensive
fashion
in
which
we
will
need
to
operate
if
we
are
serious
about
implementing
national
legislation
.
{sent}
notwithstanding
our
differences
,
we
urged
the
government
to
ensure
at
least
that
this
legislation
was
enforceable
.
{sent}
the
government
refused
,
and
we
ask
why
.
{sent}
if
the
government
believes
that
the
human
rights
commission
is
the
right
vehicle
,
then
for
goodness'
sake
let
us
not
skirt
around
the
issue
,
let
us
put
it
clearly
in
the
legislation
.
{sent}
we
also
recommended
that
all
federal
government
departments
be
covered
by
this
legislation
.
{sent}
this
was
a
key
point
for
every
single
witness
who
appeared
before
the
committee
.
{sent}
why
?
{sent}
they
looked
to
ottawa
to
provide
leadership
by
example
.
{sent}
yet
that
,
too
,
was
refused
.
{sent}
another
key
recommendation
we
made
on
behalf
of
a
number
of
concerned
groups
was
that
this
legislation
should
cover
companies
with
less
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
this
legislation
applies
only
to
companies
with
more
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
we
have
documentation
which
shows
that
if
that
provision
is
allowed
to
stand
,
then
most
of
the
companies
doing
business
with
the
federal
government
will
not
be
covered
by
the
legislation
.
{sent}
that
is
to
say
,
most
of
the
firms
who
provide
goods
and
services
to
this
government
from
coast
to
coast
have
less
than
100
employees
.
{sent}
we
made
the
practical
and
reasonable
suggestion
that
the
number
should
be
dropped
from
100
to
25
.
{sent}
that
figure
was
accepted
by
,
for
example
,
the
canadian
ethnocultural
council
when
it
appeared
before
the
hearings
.
{sent}
in
fact
,
if
we
stop
and
think
for
a
moment
,
we
are
talking
about
equality
,
so
why
should
we
base
equality
on
the
number
of
employees
a
business
has
?
{sent}
basically
,
there
should
be
none
.
{sent}
if
equality
is
not
allowed
to
prevail
within
a
firm
of
six
employees
then
we
have
no
equality
.
{sent}
that
is
why
,
at
least
,
we
had
a
threshold
at
25
employees
.
{sent}
the
americans
,
in
their
contract
compliance
record
,
have
firms
of
employees
under
50
who
also
have
to
subscribe
to
their
policies
.
{sent}
therefore
,
if
there
are
those
critics
who
suggest
that
the
americans
somehow
lag
behind
our
system
,
then
let
them
speak
up
now
because
we
are
lagging
behind
the
americans
on
this
very
essential
point
.
{sent}
we
should
eliminate
this
hang-up
and
this
charade
with
putting
most
of
the
companies
outside
the
parameters
of
equality
simply
based
on
the
number
of
employees
.
{sent}
that
will
not
go
down
well
with
regard
to
having
any
respect
for
the
legislation
that
we
have
before
us
.
{sent}
another
recommendation
we
made
was
to
enforce
some
kind
of
penalty
for
individual
companies
or
crown
corporations
that
somehow
would
not
meet
employment
equity
.
{sent}
that
is
difficult
because
this
government
has
not
clearly
come
up
with
a
grid
,
a
target
,
a
suggested
plan
for
achieving
employment
equity
.
{sent}
this
government
simply
prefers
to
say
,
well
,
if
company
a
or
crown
corporation
b
submitted
a
report
then
that
is
good
enough
for
us
.
{sent}
that
simply
runs
counter
to
the
entire
thrust
of
why
bill
c-62
is
here
in
the
first
place
.
{sent}
that
,
in
a
nutshell
,
conceptualizes
what
is
wrong
with
this
legislation
.
{sent}
i
notice
you
are
motioning
to
me
in
terms
of
my
dwindling
time
,
and
so
i
will
simply
summarize
in
the
following
manner
.
{sent}
it
is
an
inability
to
appreciate
--
and
i
do
not
profess
to
have
a
monopoly
on
that
appreciation
--
what
it
means
to
be
in
those
categories
.
{sent}
most
of
us
do
not
have
a
disability
,
most
of
us
are
white
,
and
most
of
us
are
not
native
.
{sent}
therein
lies
the
inability
of
this
parliament
and
this
government
to
deal
with
the
subject
in
a
proper
and
effective
way
.
{sent}
it
is
not
only
a
shame
for
the
government
.
{sent}
we
have
not
done
this
,
and
i
would
hope
to
god
that
this
government
can
see
the
shortcoming
of
its
attitude
in
this
legislation
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
are
there
any
questions
and
comments
?
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
i
would
like
to
ask
a
question
of
my
colleague
from
york
west
,
who
is
the
official
critic
for
the
official
opposition
in
the
field
of
multiculturalism
.
{sent}
he
is
,
as
i
know
,
constantly
in
touch
with
various
cultural
groups
in
this
country
.
{sent}
in
toronto
,
as
well
as
in
his
own
riding
,
he
is
in
constant
touch
with
minority
groups
,
particularly
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
is
it
also
not
true
that
a
very
high
proportion
of
people
who
are
in
the
visible
minorities
are
not
employed
,
especially
among
youth
?
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
i
would
like
to
thank
my
colleague
from
eglington-lawrence
for
raising
what
is
a
very
fundamental
question
for
me
as
the
official
critic
,
and
similarly
for
him
as
among
other
things
,
the
critic
for
the
handicapped
community
.
{sent}
he
has
liaised
with
that
community
in
conjunction
with
myself
and
other
members
of
my
party
.
{sent}
the
visible
minorities
community
and
the
ethnocultural
communities
as
expressed
in
this
process
by
the
cec
,
the
canadian
ethnocultural
council
,
which
is
the
national
umbrella
group
for
all
ethnocultural
organizations
in
canada
,
had
expressed
some
degree
of
enthusiasm
and
hope
for
this
particular
piece
of
legislation
.
{sent}
they
thought
that
a
piece
of
legislation
,
such
as
this
bill
on
employment
equity
,
would
tie
the
various
elements
together
and
that
they
would
find
it
the
underpinnings
of
each
of
those
different
studies
.
{sent}
they
came
to
the
employment
equity
table
in
debate
with
the
high
hopes
that
those
recommendations
would
transcend
into
legislation
.
{sent}
they
did
not
find
it
,
but
they
did
not
go
home
and
they
did
not
give
up
.
{sent}
the
urban
alliance
on
race
relations
,
which
was
a
leading
component
of
the
struggle
on
behalf
of
the
visible
minorities
,
concluded
in
the
following
way
:
{sent}
--
that
the
focus
of
the
legislation
is
on
data
collection
rather
than
hiring
and
training
in
a
workplace
free
of
discrimination
.
{sent}
the
canadian
ethnocultural
council
on
the
question
of
visible
minorities
said
that
it
cannot
see
how
a
voluntary
approach
,
which
is
in
bill
c-62
,
will
substantially
improve
employment
opportunities
for
visible
minorities
.
{sent}
mr.
de
corneille
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
agree
with
what
my
colleague
has
said
.
{sent}
one
of
our
other
concerns
is
that
young
people
constitute
a
very
large
and
undue
proportion
of
those
who
are
unemployed
in
our
country
.
{sent}
furthermore
,
among
those
unemployed
youth
,
a
much
higher
proportion
of
those
who
are
visible
minorities
are
unable
to
get
work
in
toronto
and
every
other
city
in
the
country
.
{sent}
the
percentage
of
unemployment
among
visible
minority
groups
is
even
higher
than
the
level
of
unemployment
among
young
people
.
{sent}
does
this
not
also
impact
badly
on
the
youth
in
this
country
?
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
mr.
speaker
,
during
my
speech
i
said
that
perhaps
the
most
sensitive
problem
we
deal
with
when
speaking
to
our
constituents
is
the
question
of
unemployment
.
{sent}
young
people
who
have
just
graduated
from
school
or
university
are
hungry
for
their
first
opportunity
in
the
workplace
but
are
being
denied
that
opportunity
.
{sent}
my
colleague
,
the
hon.
member
for
eglinton
--
lawrence
(
mr.
de
corneille
)
,
is
correct
that
the
problem
is
even
more
acute
for
the
visible
minority
within
the
youth
element
of
this
country
.
{sent}
they
face
an
awesome
,
if
not
almost
impossible
task
,
given
some
of
those
conditions
.
{sent}
in
some
parts
of
halifax
,
nova
scotia
,
i
believe
the
unemployment
rate
for
young
black
canadians
is
upwards
of
50
per
cent
compared
to
the
rate
for
other
individuals
in
the
same
bracket
.
{sent}
that
should
be
testimony
to
the
type
of
legislation
we
ought
to
introduce
in
the
parliament
.
{sent}
last
year
,
studies
were
conducted
with
the
support
of
the
urban
alliance
on
race
relations
,
together
with
york
university
.
{sent}
individuals
from
visible
minorities
tested
firms
and
companies
and
found
that
employers
were
not
prepared
to
hire
them
.
{sent}
after
the
two
studies
were
completed
,
the
report
showed
an
alarming
attitude
among
those
selected
employers
.
{sent}
i
am
not
suggesting
for
one
moment
that
all
canadian
employers
or
all
canadians
share
that
attitude
,
but
surely
there
are
some
very
deep-rooted
problems
that
we
simply
must
eradicate
.
{sent}
if
countless
studies
tell
members
of
parliament
that
there
is
a
very
severe
problem
to
which
there
are
good
solutions
,
why
should
we
accept
legislation
that
does
not
even
come
close
to
solving
those
problems
?
{sent}
why
should
we
accept
amateurism
in
place
of
professionalism
?
{sent}
why
should
we
accept
charades
instead
of
sincerity
?
{sent}
it
is
time
that
we
called
a
spade
a
spade
in
this
country
.
{sent}
yet
,
the
government
is
not
prepared
to
do
so
.
{sent}
it
is
a
shame
.
{sent}
mr.
howard
mccurdy
(
windsor
--
walkerville
)
:
mr.
speaker
,
when
i
confess
that
it
is
my
intention
to
vote
against
this
bill
,
i
do
not
suppose
that
it
would
be
a
significant
surprise
.
{sent}
this
is
a
mean
little
bill
that
will
be
a
source
of
disappointment
to
the
groups
that
are
supposed
to
benefit
from
it
.
{sent}
this
bill
is
a
poor
reflection
of
the
character
of
this
country
,
its
people
,
and
what
they
want
it
to
be
.
{sent}
the
bill
is
rather
typical
of
the
steps
that
have
so
often
characterized
the
approach
taken
in
the
past
to
meet
the
needs
of
the
minorities
.
{sent}
its
very
notion
is
that
we
dare
not
go
too
far
too
fast
.
{sent}
it
was
argued
in
the
south
that
legislating
away
segregation
would
surely
mean
perpetual
conflict
.
{sent}
the
canadian
people
understand
that
.
{sent}
this
country
has
changed
immensely
since
i
was
a
child
.
{sent}
this
bill
does
not
reflect
the
attitude
of
canadian
people
.
{sent}
it
is
a
poor
reflection
of
the
attitudes
of
our
country
.
{sent}
it
has
been
defended
in
an
extremely
lukewarm
fashion
.
{sent}
retreat
is
never
aggressive
and
never
produces
memorable
rhetoric
.
{sent}
the
organizations
who
represent
women
,
minorities
,
the
disabled
and
native
people
in
this
country
have
presented
their
case
over
and
over
again
.
{sent}
their
position
has
been
articulated
on
this
side
of
the
house
with
,
i
think
,
dramatic
effect
.
{sent}
we
have
demonstrated
that
the
party
in
power
constitutes
a
minority
holding
the
viewpoint
that
we
must
continue
to
go
slowly
.
{sent}
it
is
a
tragedy
that
the
march
to
progress
has
not
been
continued
by
the
present
government
.
{sent}
the
marchers
have
been
waylaid
,
the
march
has
been
sabotaged
.
{sent}
what
is
going
to
happen
today
does
not
represent
the
culmination
of
the
efforts
of
so
many
to
secure
equality
.
{sent}
it
is
an
interruption
.
{sent}
it
will
not
be
a
fatal
interruption
but
it
is
one
which
will
cause
only
concern
and
unhappiness
with
some
measure
of
misery
and
alienation
.
{sent}
this
government
will
be
discredited
among
a
significant
portion
of
the
population
.
{sent}
let
me
remind
those
hon.
members
of
the
population
which
will
be
affected
by
this
bill
.
{sent}
they
will
be
remember
the
government
's
weak
response
.
{sent}
federal
government
departments
are
excluded
from
this
legislation
.
{sent}
it
will
be
remembered
that
what
is
not
contained
in
this
bill
is
any
reference
to
equal
pay
for
work
of
equal
value
,
and
it
will
be
noted
that
there
is
nothing
in
this
bill
to
address
the
issue
of
contract
compliance
.
{sent}
it
should
state
clearly
and
unambiguously
that
those
who
discriminate
against
minorities
,
women
,
native
people
or
the
disabled
,
will
not
receive
government
contracts
.
{sent}
it
will
be
noted
that
this
bill
does
not
provide
,
as
it
claims
to
do
,
mandatory
affirmative
action
or
employment
equity
.
{sent}
it
provides
only
one
requirement
subject
to
any
kind
of
sanction
,
and
that
is
,
that
companies
report
the
numbers
of
designated
groups
which
are
employed
,
how
and
where
they
are
employed
and
how
much
they
are
paid
.
{sent}
this
bill
will
not
address
the
problem
of
the
deprivation
of
so
many
adequate
employment
opportunities
.
{sent}
for
those
who
would
claim
that
this
bill
is
aimed
at
achieving
equalty
let
us
dispense
with
that
right
now
.
{sent}
all
this
bill
refers
to
is
employment
.
{sent}
it
will
not
redress
the
many
wrongs
experienced
by
minorities
in
education
,
housing
and
opportunities
for
participation
in
our
communities
.
{sent}
what
it
does
in
an
indirect
way
is
address
the
tremendous
advantages
which
white
males
have
through
their
social
clubs
and
contacts
at
the
golf
course
and
elsewhere
.
{sent}
this
is
something
,
i
think
,
which
bears
emphasis
.
{sent}
there
is
no
negation
in
this
bill
of
the
practice
of
the
past
,
which
continues
today
,
of
shutting
out
so
many
people
from
opportunities
through
the
``
old
boy
''
network
.
{sent}
i
sit
down
in
grave
disappointment
and
that
disappointment
is
not
only
my
disappointment
but
the
disppontment
of
hundreds
of
thousands
of
persons
,
indeed
,
millions
,
whom
the
government
has
failed
.
{sent}
mr.
prud'homme
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
simply
want
to
make
a
couple
of
remarks
.
{sent}
as
a
matter
of
fact
,
my
interpretation
of
the
new
standing
orders
is
that
a
chairman
must
not
only
be
objective
,
but
also
appear
to
be
objective
.
{sent}
so
i
think
i
did
the
work
the
house
asked
me
to
do
as
an
impartial
chairman
.
{sent}
i
have
always
said
that
when
i
act
as
chairman
i
have
no
political
opinion
.
{sent}
that
being
said
,
i
did
not
take
part
in
the
debate
on
this
bill
,
a
bill
i
consider
extremely
important
.
{sent}
i
may
add
that
since
we
are
now
getting
used
to
a
new
system
,
and
i
am
referring
to
the
system
of
legislative
committees
,
i
preferred
to
abstain
from
voting
on
second
reading
.
{sent}
i
would
not
even
want
to
say
it
is
a
step
in
the
right
direction
,
because
it
would
be
more
or
less
taking
sides
with
the
government
.
{sent}
nor
would
i
want
to
say
that
the
bill
is
a
very
poor
piece
of
legislation
,
because
i
would
be
siding
with
the
opposition
.
{sent}
i
prefer
to
abstain
.
{sent}
i
am
not
sorry
i
did
.
{sent}
it
was
a
very
interesting
experience
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
mr.
marchi
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
was
very
much
interested
in
the
hon.
member
's
participation
throughout
the
entire
process
.
{sent}
he
just
left
the
chamber
.
{sent}
i
hope
he
will
return
and
listen
to
my
question
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
i
am
sorry
,
i
will
have
to
interrupt
the
hon.
member
for
york
west
(
mr.
marchi
)
if
the
hon.
member
for
windsor
--
walkerville
(
mr.
mccurdy
)
is
not
present
.
{sent}
we
have
decided
that
.
{sent}
the
hon.
member
not
being
present
,
is
the
house
ready
for
the
question
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
question
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
the
question
is
the
following
one
.
{sent}
miss
macdonald
,
seconded
by
mr.
hnatyshyn
,
moves
that
bill
c-62
,
an
act
respecting
employment
equity
,
be
read
the
third
time
and
passed
.
{sent}
is
it
the
pleasure
of
the
house
to
adopt
the
said
motion
?
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
agreed
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
no.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
all
those
in
favour
please
say
yea
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
yea
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
all
those
opposed
please
say
nay
.
{sent}
some
hon.
members
:
nay
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
in
my
opinion
the
yeas
have
it
.
{sent}
and
more
than
five
members
having
risen
:
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
call
in
the
members
.
{sent}
the
house
divided
on
the
motion
(
miss
macdonald
)
,
which
was
agreed
to
on
the
following
division
:
{sent}
33
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
i
declare
the
motion
carried
.
{sent}
bill
read
the
third
time
and
passed
.
{sent}
mr.
prud'homme
:
on
a
point
of
order
,
mr.
speaker
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
the
hon.
member
for
saint-denis
(
mr.
prud'homme
)
on
a
point
of
order
.
{sent}
mr.
prud'homme
:
mr.
speaker
,
i
must
explain
why
i
did
not
vote
.
{sent}
mr.
deputy
speaker
:
it
being
6:09
p.m.
,
this
house
stands
adjourned
until
tomorrow
at
11
a.m.
,
pursuant
to
standing
order
3(1)
.
{sent}
the
house
adjourned
at
6:09
p.m.
{sent}